21 replies to this topic

[Xoco]

I just just popped 5 flamers onto my Locust, and while it was very fun laughing maniacally and flaming things, it doesn't feel, well, very effective. I was only able to approach two guys the entire game (I still don't have an XL engine for this little guy), but I did get to walk up and blast someone until I overheated twice. Both times, I was spending 100% of the time in contact with them until I overheated. I ended the match with 41 damage This is considering that I'm probably hitting multiple parts with 5 flamers. I think all in all, that works out to about 8 damage per part before I overheat. One of my target was a Jenner, and I was right on his heel and blasting him until I overheated. I did not wreck a single part--don't think I even cored him. I never did check (I made the assumptions that all weapons are supposed to be viable to a degree), but what is the DPS on this thing?

I know flamer is a joke weapon, but I had expected at least to be able to do OK damage before I overheat. Is this intentional? Is flamer simply there to obstruct people's view? Or is there a legitimate use for it?

Edited by Xoco, 02 May 2015 - 07:35 AM.

[stealthraccoon]

I wish flamers were more effective, but I'm not sure that there is a consensus on what to do with them. I'd like to be able to catch people on fire, add say a DoT effect or decreased heat dissipation. For now they make for LoLz and blinders but that is about it.

Also I'd like to ask where my thunder munitions are??? I need land mines!

[Xoco]

I'd rather go for direct damage/DoT over heat. From what I gathered, the flamer only seems to do 0.7dps? That's really dang low.


I wish for starter that it would be a half-ton weapon, not 1 ton. Then amp up the damage a bit would be very helpful. It might seem overwhelming to have higher DPS considering it can hit multiple parts, but it's a very low range weapon, so I think it would be quite fair. And maybe give it a flat damage profile over distance would be helpful.

[bad arcade kitty]

i read in another thread that flamer's heat raises non-linearly and to use it effectively you should chain fire at least 2 of them
i didn't test it though

[RazorbeastFXK3]

I've used flamers on a locust, I ended up running blind as all I could see were the output of my flamers so I stopped using 'em on the locust.

When I started messing around with Firestarter I had a better time boating x6 to x8 flamers, overheating (and effectively killing) opponents without chainfiring them.

The key thing is to not be at full throttle when executing them because even if you're not going full speed, when you are at full throttle (whether running forward or backward) your 'mech will generate more heat than usual.

Also, the damage output of Flamers is rather pathetic as their main objective is to force your opponent's heat gauge to reach 90% so if they use any weapon that generates higher than average heat they will shut themselves down until their heat gauge goes back to 90%. Secondary objective is to hinder their visuals while attacking them. Even though the damage isn't as great as other weapons, they are able to melt away armor so they're not worthless in the field.

It's best to not engage your opponent by yourself when using only flamers. If you're the last man standing, by all means single out an opponent and use your flamers (alpha strike only) while circling them and if you begin to overheat, just pulse them but never chainfire as that will just render the effective use of the flamer to almost nothing.

[Nightshade24]

Lore wise:

Flamers was a bit more lethal
Heat output was stronger
Had longer range
it REDUCED Your heat, not gained.

[Juodas Varnas]

Nightshade24, on 02 May 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

Lore wise:

Flamers was a bit more lethal
Heat output was stronger
Had longer range
it REDUCED Your heat, not gained.

It didn't reduce your heat. It had the same heat generation as Medium lasers, but deals 2 damage (just like machine guns and AC2s), however you can CHOOSE to deal 2 heat instead of that 2 damage. Not both (at least not in official rules, as far as i recall) It also had the range of 3 hexes (which is 90 meters).

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 03 May 2015 - 11:33 AM.

[bad arcade kitty]

Juodas Varnas, on 03 May 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

It didn't reduce your heat. It had the same heat generation as Medium lasers, but deals 2 damage (just like machine guns and AC2s), however you can CHOOSE to deal 2 heat instead of that 2 damage. Not both (at least not in official rules, as far as i recall) It also had the range of 3 hexes (which is 90 meters).

what... how does it even work

my flamer, i choose you to deal heat! galactic power!

[Juodas Varnas]

bad arcade kitty, on 03 May 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

what... how does it even work

my flamer, i choose you to deal heat! galactic power!

The power of Tabletop games not always makes sense.

[Nightshade24]

Juodas Varnas, on 03 May 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

It didn't reduce your heat. It had the same heat generation as Medium lasers, but deals 2 damage (just like machine guns and AC2s), however you can CHOOSE to deal 2 heat instead of that 2 damage. Not both (at least not in official rules, as far as i recall) It also had the range of 3 hexes (which is 90 meters).

from memories (TT or Lorewise) flamers took heat out of your mech. (hence why they are on on every boiling hot mech.... Adder Prime, Firestarter, Warhawk Charlie, Cicada, etc)

[Mad Dog Morgan]

It taps into the reactor, forcing a thermal ejection in the form of plasma. It's basically a reactor vent on your mech.

It also does not reduce the heat of your mech, though...

I think they should (since they're really just plain bad in the DPS department), bypass armor and cook internals/ammo. Make them crit when fired upon exposed internals like machine guns, but drastically increase the chance to set off rounds for an ammo explosion.

[SethAbercromby]

First off, flamers suffer from an unessecary mechanic called heat build up and are the only weapon to use it. What it means is that flamers creatre heat exponentially to their use time. As a result, it is possible to overhat with a single flamer, even if you completely stack the rest of your 'Mech in heat sinks. Using Chain Fire with 2 flamers will avoid heat build up, but their overall effectiveness is that of a single flamer. So to get some use out of them, use at least 4 and switch to chain fire, once your heats starts gaining too fast for your liking. This'll keep the heat on the enemy, while keeping if off your heat sinks. Also I reccomend to still bring short range weapons such as SPLs, MGs or SRMs to punch some damage into the target while you cook them.

Flamers would be significantly more usable though if they were to use a much more simple system of generating 0.5 HPS per flamer on you and 0.75 HPS on your target. Much more predictable in their performance and actually useful then.

On TT Lore:

Quote

Introduced in 2025, the standard Flamer taps into a BattleMech's reactor to produce heat in the form of a plasma release.^[3] An extremely short-ranged weapon, the Flamer is devastating against infantry, however damage done against other 'Mechs and vehicles is negligible, though it can raise the enemy unit's heat levels. The Flamer is also often used to set ambient objects such as trees aflame, making it useful for burning forests or cities in order to slow the enemy down or cover friendly movements. A clear example of such is the Firestarter BattleMech.

- Source: Sarna

From what I understand, the way it taps into the reactor is much like that of a Medium laser, but uses a more raw output. Still taxes the generator into generating more heat though.

Edited by SethAbercromby, 03 May 2015 - 09:54 PM.

[Domenoth]

It always struck me as ironic that if you wanted to make an opponent's Mech heat up by using a flamer, it's more effective to trick him into firing a flamer at you than it is for you to fire your flamer at him...

Edit:
I'm referring to TT in case that wasn't clear.

Edited by Domenoth, 03 May 2015 - 10:15 PM.

[Cool will never die but you will]

if only this game was more like TT.

[luxebo]

Flamers should be more like what MC2 had. Bursts of damage, very close range, but could do tons of damage for heavy heat. Mad Dogs had a variant "Mad Dragon" which had ECM + 10 Flamers. One heck of a deadly thing. (Though MGs were more useless there.)

[Timicon]

Flamers are more psychological weapons and designed primarily to make your opponent overheat, than dishing out any real damage.

[Xoco]

Guess I should do some switcharoos on my mech and plop some lasers in there.

If I have 3 Flamers (say 1/2/3) can I chain fire 1-2, then 2-3 without causing extra heat on myself? Also, does chain firing work with the chain-fire command, or does it have to be done manually (binding 1-2 to left click and 2-3 to right click)?

--
Oh, another thing. I usually run behind an enemy while he's fighting my team's big bully to start flaming him--keep myself out of is line of sight.
However, I find that 1) This leaves me exposed to his friends, and 2) I'm shooting his back, where he has full armor.

I tried staying in front of him and hoping the flamer would obscure his ability to shoot me, but alas. Truth be told, I'm never quite sure if it's my teammates or the enemy that I'm roasting who put that laser blast on me, but I find that I would die in no time.


Any suggestion on where I should be staying?

Edited by Xoco, 05 May 2015 - 09:03 AM.

[SethAbercromby]

Xoco, on 05 May 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

If I have 3 Flamers (say 1/2/3) can I chain fire 1-2, then 2-3 without causing extra heat on myself? Also, does chain firing work with the chain-fire command, or does it have to be done manually (binding 1-2 to left click and 2-3 to right click)?

If you toggle cahin fire on the group, one flamer will fire for 0.5 seconds, then the next then the next and then the next. Basically, they all fire like one singular flamer, but without the exponential heat build up. You can probably use 2 chain fire groups with 4 flamers, but I'm not too sure how the heat buildup is designed in that regard. Probably needs some testing.

[Anachronda]

It seems to me that heat generation is the primary use of a flamer. Everything else is secondary. The problem I see is it seems like flamers create more heat in your mech than they create in the mech you have fired flamers on. That's what people keep telling me, anyway. That seems wrong. Does anyone have hard numbers or any kind of confirmation to that?

I don't think flamers should do a lot of actual damage. Making them cook ammo would make more sense, but just be ready to hear the crying on the forums the minute that happens.

[Xoco]

I've been discovering that going as light/medium with flamers guarding our assault/heavy squad is really nice. I can really help to control anyone who tries to attack the group very well (and if they somehow shutdown while still in range of our Heavy/Assault lance, then it's gg).

The problem with this strategy is that while it is quite effective, it is very reliant on having good teammates. And the worse thing--I don't get any credits. I don't normally carry long ranged weapons (too much heat), and my firepower is too flimsy to trade with Gauss/Large Laser boat heavies anyway. The game should have a way to credit people for CC/ECM, tagging, etc.