How would you rate a TBR build...
A. using 3 UAC/5s, give or take a few ERMLs?
There is not enough room, unfortunately. You would need to bring a ton of ammo, or strip most armor. One big gun or two small guns is the most you can reasonably fit on a TW.
Questia, on 13 April 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:
B. using 2 Gauss Rifles a la Gaussjager?
It is actually one of the standard Jagermech builds. Use an XL engine and Endo Steel to make it fit.
Thanks for all the replies!
I'm mostly curious and slightly preparing for the time when I'll buy a light mech, since it always helps to have a good spread on weight classes (with mastery of course).
For something a little less serious, though...
How would you rate a TBR build...
A. using 3 UAC/5s, give or take a few ERMLs?
B. using 2 Gauss Rifles a la Gaussjager?
A: not possible, best you can do is 2UAC-5 4ERML. This is decent, though not the preferred build at the moment.
B: Not really possible... it can be done, but not really worth the sacrifices.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...538be7e23c1c2c8 is generally what I recommend as a new player Timby build. 5ERML/Gauss is still preferred by most I think, but this one's a little easier to handle. It has a better range profile, and runs significantly cooler... plus you can run it on the prime if you've got an invasion variant.
I am not talking about overheating to death. I am talking about not being able to put out enough DPS for any kind of protracted fight. A very hot build requires perfect circumstances to work, and pilot skill plus hit detection play a major role.
Maybe heat management yes, but that's not too hard to learn. The "standard" TBR-C laser vom puts you at 60+% heat on every alpha, but firing the 2xcLPLs only, plus a single cERML will give you very good DPS. This TBR-C is fantastic in the solo queue and on my wins, it's usually 700+ dmg. If you know when to alpha and when to go to DPS mode, you'll do fine.
Similarly if you watch Twinky's stream he posts his DWF stats in the solo queue (so it's all random teams and random maps), he gets 8+ KDR I think. His alpha puts him at 50% heat but he doesn't alpha all the time and selectively does so. So it's more about player skill, including how you play that build.
Edit: this is also why the STK-4N 6xLL is a top tier IS mech in the solo queue. 6xLL isn't exactly cool, but it wrecks and wrecks if you play it right. Anyways, these opinions are not only mine. I run them and even at my skill level they work. Players far better than me run these "hot" builds and do even better.
Not sure if trolling so I'm just going to leave this alone...
Was quite serious. With the armor pushed to the front, it has more armor than some typical medium mechs and at 97 to 108 kph it is more than agile enough, especially with such tiny hitboxes. Gave just a few of my examples including a couple with the condition of the mech when destroyed. I manage to lose many limbs before dying.
Many more can be found here, click on Scores and then any thumbnail labelled "Ember" or "Firestarter" when highlighted.
Was quite serious. With the armor pushed to the front, it has more armor than some typical medium mechs and at 97 to 108 kph it is more than agile enough, especially with such tiny hitboxes. Gave just a few of my examples including a couple with the condition of the mech when destroyed. I manage to lose many limbs before dying.
Many more can be found here, click on Scores and then any thumbnail labelled "Ember" or "Firestarter" when highlighted.
Er... good luck with that then, I think I'll stick with builds with guns on them for now though.
Er... good luck with that then, I think I'll stick with builds with guns on them for now though.
I appreciate the luck you're wishing. It's performed better than most of the Clan mechs and playing it resembles a Stormcrow -- that can jump...and not shut down.
A typical battle, like this one (skip to 5:50 in)
is plagued with distractions. Overheating, shutting down, not being able to move, not being able to fight.
My Firestarter designs (four out of five that I own) revolve around never being able to overheat.
What I feel applies to the results good of their performance is the potential that is realized when you can ignore your heat meter. That change in performance when you can focus on the battle you are fighting.
For those interested in the logic used.
Spoiler
It's 7 guns. So there isn't a lack of weapons. Heat neutrality, and the ability to take more total damage than your typical heavy mech can before dying. Average of 3 to 5 kills with the highest being 7 (that's counting where I do at minimum half of the work, highest one where I'm not doing the work has been 9).
For an example, watch this. That's slow with an XL engine versus an AC/20 blackjack in a face to face brawl. And here, treating an XL engine slow Firestarter as a Centurion. A whopping 83 kph, and the thing tanks wonderfully with 30 armor per front ST, 42 armor front CT, about 4 armor cockpit (no one ever hits it).
The most you can get on an Ember is 4 MPL and 4 MGs, but even then your XL engine would have to be tiny or you'd have to overheat in three or four shots. (Edit: Just tried it, three shots without moving, and I damaged my torso). I can fight in Terra Therma's lava pit and not shut down for nearly a minute of constant fire. In the Caldera of Caustic Valley, I can't be shut down. You can't stop my mech from moving as I bunny hop and jog around you.
Much akin to this triple MPL build for the Spider. (First target is afk, but watch the others). The simple difference? Unlike this spider which needs to hide from enemies, I can stare you down and go for any limb I want (your leg is usually gonna be first, though).
It's all in how you play.
A similar concept is used in this Trebuchet, using twin streaks, twin MGs, a single LPL and TAG.
Notice not once does it ever, ever stop.
Even in the Caldera.
Sadly it can't jump over enemies like my Ember and being surrounded isn't a good idea when almost as tall as an Atlas.
So, a few zaps and overheat... or an infinite number of weaker zaps with heatless pepper spray that will fry enemy weapons, ammo and heatsinks before they realize what had happened, with a mech that can take on average 6x more abuse (usually have lost each arm, at least one side torso and one leg before dying by CT). One ST is 48 health with armor and structure combined (usual cause of death for Firestarters). The parts I listed if we assume only one arm is blown off by shooting and the other isn't ever hit (and lost by the ST going bye bye) is.. 198 damage taken.
Even if you ignore the arm and the leg which are usually lost and just go ST then CT, it's 114 damage... versus the usual 48 it takes to kill most firestarters boating "lots of weapons."
If you could survive all that and still have lots of weapons, would you still manage to shoot as frequently? Or would you have to wait for long periods of time? The reason I point this out is like with hit and run attacks, if you escape to cool off, they cool off. And anything you're fighting against as a light mech has more guns than you, period.
Every enemy I face is likely to shut down before I perish. Then again. A high alpha alternative is to be like this.
That's no good in a light mech.
While the mech lacks alpha strike potential, the beam times are 0.69 sec SL and 0.555 sec MPL. Clan AC burst fire for the Clan AC/10 lasts longer. And that's a fast "pop pop pop pop."
I bring forth infinite endurance and no chance of getting caught in a shutdown. A lot of weapons for high alpha damage is gonna run itself ragged and sleepy very quickly. A simple tortoise and the hare situation. Is the Hare dangerous? For about 1 second, definitely. About 4 seconds later though if it's still fighting, its threat level decreases drastically.
And if the hare ever has to stop for a nap (to cool off or over exertion), the tortoise will always win the race.
The fact that Firestarters tank like Stalkers, (that is, they tank good on their own but tank even better after losing a side torso) really helps.
I also believe Panthers do good in this regard as well. Tanking fire. However I believe Panthers lack a solid firing rate. Missiles can miss and take a while to reload. That's a problem. The fact that a Panther can't disable an enemy AC/20 in 1.5 seconds like the Ember or 3 seconds like the Firestarter A is also another issue.
I understand your theory, I just don't think it's a good one. Light's going sub 100 I personally find very easy to hit, and your leg is never going to have more than 32 armor on it.
Overheating isn't that big of a thing to keep track of IMO, there's blinking lights and everything. He who damages a single component the most in the least amount of time wins every fight.
Regarding the Firestarters, you pretty much want to take an XL 295 and then build the weapons loadout from there. If a Firestarter can't run 150 kph, then it can't run from other lights that DO run that speed, and that's really important for the chassis. Bringing more weapons at the cost of reduced speed is a role better served by almost any medium mech.
There are a few problems with your thinking.
1. If I have 6 mpls and go 142, I can easily kill a firestarter with 5 mpls that goes 150 if I'm just as accurate than he is and use a cool shot. Even if he uses a cool shot he can't catch up on damage before I kill him. It would actually be a pretty long fight before his extra heat sink or two manages to overtake me on damage because of the difference in alpha. Even then, a much more important factor than that would be how banged up each of us is. It matters little if he has 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 mpls if I'm badly banged up and he's fresh.
2. Let's reverse the speeds. Let's say I go 150 in my FS-9S, and the enemy goes 142 in his FS9-S. That's a difference of 8 kph, or if you convert that to meters per second, 2.22. Assuming the game scale is correct, If I run *in a straight line* away from that firestarter at max speed to avoid him cutting me off at any angle, I will create 2.22 meters of space every second between him and me. Let's say he jumps me at a distance of 200 meters. It will take me *nine seconds* to create enough distance to even begin to take less damage from his medium pulses, and 99 seconds to get him to a distance of 440 meters where he won't do any damage! If you attempt to juke him and turn and move unpredictably, he will invariably catch up to you because you're no longer running in a straight line, but he most likely is moving in a much more linear fashion. The point of this is that there is no magical number you need to reach for speed to be viable. Out-running other lights has nothing to do with a 5kph speed difference which is utterly insignificant. It has everything to do with not over extending from your teammates, using cover, breaking line of sight and confusing the enemy about where your position is, having radar deprivation equipped, knowing the map, and using terrain to your maximal advantage.
People should not constrain themselves based off some arbitrary number pulled out of thin air that they consider "viable". I've seen some of the best firestarter pilots in the game use 5 mpls, 6 mpls, and 7 mpls, all having varying degrees of heat sinks, jump jets, and engine. If someone does have a solid reason as to exactly why 150 is a magical number, I'd like to hear it.
On a side note, I'm still amazed that 12 ER ML will kill you on the first shot, but 13 ER PPCs, ghost heat bringing it to over 1,000 heat... won't. I'm just sayin'.
So a DireStar alpha won't explode on its first shot still?
After playing Urbie for a week and getting used to it, I feel like slapping an XL245 with 7 MPL on a Firestarter S would feel incredibly viable and strong.
Tylerchu, on 13 April 2015 - 07:24 PM, said:
So a DireStar alpha won't explode on its first shot still?
1. If I have 6 mpls and go 142, I can easily kill a firestarter with 5 mpls that goes 150 if I'm just as accurate than he is and use a cool shot. Even if he uses a cool shot he can't catch up on damage before I kill him. It would actually be a pretty long fight before his extra heat sink or two manages to overtake me on damage because of the difference in alpha. Even then, a much more important factor than that would be how banged up each of us is. It matters little if he has 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 mpls if I'm badly banged up and he's fresh.
2. Let's reverse the speeds. Let's say I go 150 in my FS-9S, and the enemy goes 142 in his FS9-S. That's a difference of 8 kph, or if you convert that to meters per second, 2.22. Assuming the game scale is correct, If I run *in a straight line* away from that firestarter at max speed to avoid him cutting me off at any angle, I will create 2.22 meters of space every second between him and me. Let's say he jumps me at a distance of 200 meters. It will take me *nine seconds* to create enough distance to even begin to take less damage from his medium pulses, and 99 seconds to get him to a distance of 440 meters where he won't do any damage! If you attempt to juke him and turn and move unpredictably, he will invariably catch up to you because you're no longer running in a straight line, but he most likely is moving in a much more linear fashion. The point of this is that there is no magical number you need to reach for speed to be viable. Out-running other lights has nothing to do with a 5kph speed difference which is utterly insignificant. It has everything to do with not over extending from your teammates, using cover, breaking line of sight and confusing the enemy about where your position is, having radar deprivation equipped, knowing the map, and using terrain to your maximal advantage.
People should not constrain themselves based off some arbitrary number pulled out of thin air that they consider "viable". I've seen some of the best firestarter pilots in the game use 5 mpls, 6 mpls, and 7 mpls, all having varying degrees of heat sinks, jump jets, and engine. If someone does have a solid reason as to exactly why 150 is a magical number, I'd like to hear it.
You're largely correct and I commend your depth of analysis, but I think your treatment of speed differences is incomplete. Certainly if you're just talking about outrunning someone, the speed difference is negligible - however, there's something of an inverse element of "not having to outrun the lion" here. The faster your Light goes, the faster you can cross danger areas or return to your teammates. It's not just a matter of drag racing with guns; with decent situational awareness you're also more able to avoid interception and being trapped by enemies who are fanning out to cut you off in slower 'mechs.
Consider an example from the other end of the tonnage pool. When the Clans hit, I was pugging a dual LB-X Hillbilly Shotgun Atlas D-DC. I loved that 'mech. Nothing I've played before or since has quite the disruptive effect as that build marauding through an enemy formation, but I digress. The point is that my Shotgun Atlas went 57kph - and with the amazing maneuverability of Clan Battlemechs, combined with how my teammates reacted to the reach of Clan guns, that was just too slow. More and more, I'd see instances where I would start to engage, and my teammates would simply turn and run, trying to get to their favorite hiding rocks instead of helping me kill things. As a result, I was unable to escape back to cover, thus dying repeatedly with no recourse. What I did about it was to ditch the shotguns and go for a more standard AC/20 build with Medium Lasers and a larger engine - for a total increase of about 5kph. On the scale of things that go stomp in the battlefield, that's not a lot - but because of how that little bit of speed interacted with the capabilities of other Battlemechs and the normal actions of my team, I was able to play my Atlas without having an aneurism again. So if you like, there's a good, solid reason to go as fast as possible.
All that being said, however, there isn't any magical reason that you have to max your engine rating on a Light. Because "as fast as possible" always means "as fast as feasible" in practice. If you have a good reason to forgo speed, go right ahead - with firestarters, this is often a symptom of lights refusing to dotheirfrackingjobs and scout, but that's another thread. The takeaway is that speed is really important for lights, but 'Mech design is an engineering question, and engineering is the science of compromises.
So a DireStar alpha won't explode on its first shot still?
Nope.
The instant kill threshold is between 10 and 50 heat above your mech's shutdown threshold while overridden.
12 ER PPC Direstar brings you to 1,747.65 heat. While impossible to have the highest possible threshold in this build, the highest possible threshold is 129.6 and that's while on a cold map like frozen city.
The 13 ER PPC one, well there's Smurfy doesn't even have a modifier count for it. Not only doesn't it suicide in one shot, it doesn't suicide in the traditional sense at all. I've seen multiple alphas while overridden. The ones I've seen are usually killed by their enemies, not by suicide via overheating.
The instant kill threshold is between 10 and 50 heat above your mech's shutdown threshold while overridden.
12 ER PPC Direstar brings you to 1,747.65 heat. While impossible to have the highest possible threshold in this build, the highest possible threshold is 129.6 and that's while on a cold map like frozen city.
The 13 ER PPC one, well there's Smurfy doesn't even have a modifier count for it. Not only doesn't it suicide in one shot, it doesn't suicide in the traditional sense at all. I've seen multiple alphas while overridden. The ones I've seen are usually killed by their enemies, not by suicide via overheating.
I understand your theory, I just don't think it's a good one. Light's going sub 100 I personally find very easy to hit, and your leg is never going to have more than 32 armor on it.
Overheating isn't that big of a thing to keep track of IMO, there's blinking lights and everything. He who damages a single component the most in the least amount of time wins every fight.
Thank you. You're mostly correct. Most damage in least amount of time will win any quick fight.
Going for a firestarter's leg is also the ideal way to take it out.
Spoiler
A leg has 32 armor, and 16 structure. Hence 48 damage to destroy it. Though lets face the mentality here, if your enemy is fast, you shoot the leg. If your enemy isn't fast... do you still shoot the leg? Ideally you should. But most people don't as usually stripping weapons or quick kills are more important and it's common but faulty knowledge that the quickest feasible kills is by Side Torso. On a Firestarter, those hitboxes are tiny and easily spread damage, the only real threat is an Inner Sphere AC or a Clan LBX (up to certain ranges the spread is so tight it looks like one bullet).
Spoiler
It is true the fastest way to kill any Firestarter is by the leg as the hitboxes on the legs are 1) slightly oversized and 2) won't matter what angle you hit it from as it falls within a single pool of HP. It being done in the field is very rare.
And when the mech is legged, it still is difficult to kill.
Last thing I killed was a Muromets. What killed me? The Atlas standing behind me. Legged while fighting what became my second kill, I still had time to slaughter a third mech that is 55 (+35=70) tons my superior while being battered by both the 70 ton Muromets and a 100 ton Atlas at the same time at point blank.
I am also glad you realize that overheating isn't a big issue when mechs are built right. Especially in one on one fights. But this is where the endurance or heat comes into play. As with the Cicada fight in a previous post, high alpha damage isn't what actually won that fight. It was switching to the colder, single lasers and firing in a chain. Had I not done that, I would have died there. And if they were not having to 'stall' their strikes due to how hot they were getting from their own high alphas, they would have killed me that much sooner.
Spoiler
What this points out is that overheating can still be an issue, even if not a big one. If an enemy refuses to go down or spreads that damage, then it won't matter how quickly you can throw down that damage. But what if it can't be spread? What if your defensive measures do not stop it? What if I, with my cold weapons can put down more damage in a unit of time than you can with your high alpha + wait times? Faster firing, faster precision strikes (shorter beam times), relentless attacks (no delays, no cooling, just the unstoppable approach of death).
That 7 MPL build people keep talking about in here, you'd get some squirts of 42 damage, which even though it's MPLs that will spread. Poor timing, or an obstacle, etc... Being off target for 0.1 seconds will cost you the potential of 7 damage on target. What was that, you were off by 0.3 seconds because the enemy put his arm in the way? Welp there 21 damage, wasted.
My method of attack doesn't put it all into one blast.
I can fire, and the enemy does his defense, and before he's ready to shoot at me again I've already hit his core twice. At no time is it safe to fire back. At no time can your defenses matter. There is no gap in when I can fire and when I can't. There is no moment to make a break for it. No instant you can't take damage. The opposite is true for me. After you fire I have almost 4 seconds of counter attack time before being hit again. Three of those seconds has guaranteed safety. I have plenty of time to prepare my defense and put it to good use or to completely leave you sight. Wait, where did I go? Ah, I'm on your head.
Come hit me now. Oh, I'm behind you. While you turn around I'm on your head and behind you again! Giggity giggity goo!
You might have seen in the videos though I don't usually fight one on one. I tend to fight two on one, three on one, or more. (Every Clanner's fantasy!) Single opponents in isolated fights are a pipe dream that I almost never encounter.
Case in point.
Skip to 4 minutes, wait for the music to kick in. The fight is 3 on 4 to start with the third guy being someone we tried and failed to rescue, then quickly 2 on 4, 2 on 3 (killed one), 2 on 4 (his buddy came in) again, 2 on 5 (another enemy joins), 2 on 4 (another kill), etc. until all enemies are wiped out. No rest for the wicked. "Hare" builds might have quickly got in one or two kills but then would have to pull back and in the mean time might have been killed in the process. What prevailed were instead tortoise builds. In situations like these which I find myself in all the time, heat really does end up mattering. Even though we can get up to 4x the thresholds of tabletop to 3x the firing rate and give or take 1x the cooling power, we ultimately can overheat.
Since this is the ever ongoing situation I find myself in, match after match, I'm built to face it. Systematically eliminate all enemy forces without pause or rest until all enemies are destroyed or until I finally succumb to a superior force. Interestingly, I am on the positive end of most outcomes in any such build.
Does that mean that either method is the best or only method? Not at all. There's a place for Hares and a place for tortoises, and ways for either design to overcome the other one. That's just the way it's meant to be.
But since you mentioned how easy it is to hit something sub 100 kph... The fallacy (on PGI's part) of the 'ease of hitting' mechs, well that comes from these. Otherwise they wouldn't be so easy to hit.
Spoiler
Left, 55 ton tank. Center, MWO's Shadowhawk rescaled to match that of the Battletech Shadowhawk as given in 1987 in multiple pieces of official artwork, and to the right is MWO's scale.
Combine this with the fact that the camera glides in first person. Ignore the HUD, zoom in all the way, and just move. You will notice there is no bounce, no tilt, no reality... You simply glide magically, like a movie camera going in for a closeup with impossible precision. Unlike, say, this. <--As slow as an Urbanmech, almost impossible to hit and has great difficulty hitting even stationary targets. Interesting, no?
There is also this. Impossible convergence. The image way up there was aiming at the sky, this is aiming at the foot. Lasers go through the attacker's armor instead of out the emitters.
Impossible convergence.
I'm not relying on not being hit. I rely on tanking more hits than most Firestarterbuilds can. I can lose both side torsos and still be alive, that's better than 100% of the Clan mechs. A faster mech with high front loaded alpha damage can't take the hits. The XL engines make the mechs run as if made out of glass.
Thanks for all the replies, but I think this thread is becoming a discussion of high alpha vs. high sustained DPS.
So, let's talk that, then.
Is there any TBR build that goes high sustained DPS and can sustain a DPS race tactic that Koniving is suggesting today?
If there's no such viable builds, suggest a chassis that can indeed perform such a playstyle.
IMO, the meta leans more towards high alphas because of all the peeking and trading that occurs, but I haven't played enough to determine that as certain...
Thanks for all the replies, but I think this thread is becoming a discussion of high alpha vs. high sustained DPS.
So, let's talk that, then.
Is there any TBR build that goes high sustained DPS and can sustain a DPS race tactic that Koniving is suggesting today?
If there's no such viable builds, suggest a chassis that can indeed perform such a playstyle.
IMO, the meta leans more towards high alphas because of all the peeking and trading that occurs, but I haven't played enough to determine that as certain...
If you want the highest sustainable DPS possible, there's basically two ways to go. SRMs or Ballistic weapons. You can either go with some kind of dual UAC/5 build, or some kind of 4xSRM6+artemis build. The upside to ballistics is you can be more surgical and aim for specific components easily, but you have to face tank any return fire to continue inflicting damage which lowers your life expectancy considerably when you get ganged up on or are dpsing a heavier, bigger gunned mech that is capable of returning fire.
SRMs can be decent on a timber (4 x SRM6+Artemis) but their short range and wide area limits their usefulness. The damage scatters considerably. You can also go with streaks but the damage spread is even worse than SRM+Artemis which makes you even less surgical, and you will need to carry a clan active probe and probably a TAG as well to negate ECM and get the fastest lock on time possible. You do get greater range with streaks as well, but the tonnage investment is also quite considerable so your backup weapons and ammo will be more limited with streaks.
A middle ground approach to sustainable DPS and Alpha would be 5 ER medium lasers and a gauss rifle. You have great alpha, mid/longish range weapons, and can always fire the gauss rifle as long as you have ammo for a decent punch when you absolutely have to keep dishing damage. You also have plenty of time to twist and juke in between shots to mitigate incoming damage, even if the dps of a single gauss really isn't that amazing. This really isn't a dps oriented build, but in general most people just find higher alpha builds to be superior to high dps builds, because people like to shoot anyone who's exposed and dpsing one of their teammates (or them).
The absolute kings of pure sustainable dps would be the 5 UAC/5 dire wolf, the 4 UAC/5 king crab. If you don't like 100 ton assaults, the Dragon-1N is a sustainable dps monster with its huge AC/5 firing bonuses, and the Wolverine 6R is a medium with almost as much ballistic goodness as the Dragon.
Mid-range DPS TBR-C: 5xcERML+Gauss. Group into 2ML, 3ML, and GR. When you run hot, fire the 2 or 3+GR. This is a good balance of both high alpha and high DPS. In my opinion though this doesn't peek as well as the longer-range version below because of lower mounted left arm weapons. Where it does shine is when your team makes a push right from the beginning, which is not that common in the solo queue. However it's better generally for group queue with other players you trust as well as competitive play than the cLPL version.
Short range DPS TBR-anything: 4xcSRM6A+2 to 4 backup lasers, maybe ERSLs or MLs.
Longer-range DPS: 2xcLPL+Gauss (video tutorial). Very suited for the solo queue because most matches start off with a mid to long range peeking game, then the push only comes when one team has a clear advantage.
you definitely don't have to slap the absolute biggest possible engine in a light if it helps you fit more ammo or weapons or what have you, but it should be pretty close to the biggest one.
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Questia, on 13 April 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:
