30 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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Unlike other Omnis, the Summoner had fixed jump jets in every alternate configuration. It's simply a jumping 'Mech. The Nova and Mist Lynx are the same way.

And thats the problem.

The MadCat has the option of not taking jumpjets simply by switching omnipods.

The Summoner can never choose to not take jumpjets.

Hence why jumpjets should only be locked on S-omnipods. Non-S omnipods should have optional jumpjets.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 13 April 2015 - 07:41 PM, said:

And thats the problem.

The MadCat has the option of not taking jumpjets simply by switching omnipods.

The Summoner can never choose to not take jumpjets.

Hence why jumpjets should only be locked on S-omnipods. Non-S omnipods should have optional jumpjets.

Am I still a heretic for believing that having 5 JJs should just be a lot stronger than 2-3 JJs, so it isn't considered bad design to use 5 JJs in the first place?

[Khobai]

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Am I still a heretic for believing that having 5 JJs should just be a lot stronger than 2-3 JJs, so it isn't considered bad design to use 5 JJs in the first place?

No. Thats a different matter altogether though. Regardless of how weak or strong JJs are I dont believe the Summoner should be forced to take jumpjets when the Timberwolf has the option not to. Jumpjets should ONLY be locked on S omnipods, but they should be removable on all other omnipods. That gives the Summoner the same flexibility as the Timberwolf to remove its JJs.

Edited by Khobai, 13 April 2015 - 07:55 PM.

[Durant Carlyle]

The Summoner was designed specifically to be a fast jumper. Each and every alternate configuration has jump jets.

The Timber Wolf was designed to be fast but not jump. Then the S alternate configuration was added years later to give it one jumping config.

That is why the Summoner has fixed jets and the Timber Wolf does not. You may not believe it, but that doesn't make it not true.

The problem with the Summoner is that it is both fast and jumpy. If it were one or the other, you wouldn't have anything to complain about.

[Khobai]

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The Summoner was designed specifically to be a fast jumper. Each and every alternate configuration has jump jets.

The Timber Wolf was designed to be fast but not jump. Then the S alternate configuration was added years later to give it one jumping config.

That is why the Summoner has fixed jets and the Timber Wolf does not. You may not believe it, but that doesn't make it not true.

The problem with the Summoner is that it is both fast and jumpy. If it were one or the other, you wouldn't have anything to complain about.

Canon is irrelevant in MWO. In fact most mechs in MWO dont follow their canon roles because they wouldnt work. Trying to impose canon roles on some mechs while not imposing canon roles on other mechs is just sloppy and inconsistent.

If the Timberwolf can remove its JJs then the Summoner should also be able to. Getting hung up on canon sentiments/semantics is just antiquated and silly. Whats balanced in MWO is what should be important. The Summoner is bad because it cant remove its JJs. Therefore it should be able to remove it JJs. So breaking from canon to improve game balance is exactly what needs to be done.

Yes you could argue for stronger jumpjets too. But stronger jumpjets would also make the Timberwolf-S equally stronger. The relative power levels between the Summoner and Timberwolf-S wont change any by doing that. But allowing the non-S omnipods to remove their JJs would make the Summoner stronger without making the Timberwolf-S stronger.

Edited by Khobai, 13 April 2015 - 08:11 PM.

[Durant Carlyle]

Canon roles would work perfectly in MW:O if Inner Sphere 'Mech customization worked like it was supposed to.

Instead, we have super-customizable gunbags, and everybody and their mother wants to turn MechWarrior Online into Generic Giant Stompy Robot Combat Game #247.

[Khobai]

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Canon roles would work perfectly in MW:O if Inner Sphere 'Mech customization worked like it was supposed to.

Instead, we have super-customizable gunbags, and everybody and their mother wants to turn MechWarrior Online into Generic Giant Stompy Robot Combat Game #247.

I cant disagree with you there. The main problem with the quirk system is that it doesnt reward stock loadouts. You dont see Stalker 4Ns with a mix of SRMs/LRMs/MLs/LLs... you see them with meta loadouts like 6 LLs.

[Abisha]

find personally the damage/tanking reasonable good atm.

giving more Armour makes some mechs almost imposable to destroy.

[Y E O N N E]

One Medic Army, on 13 April 2015 - 06:48 PM, said:

And yet it's still a terrible weapon to use. Tells you something about the value of concentrated damage. (Well, and AC/2s are hot as hell compared to every other ballistic).

I only use them on my BJ-1DC, where they have significant cooling quirks. Not competitive by an means, but damn if it isn't fun to just wail on targets. All 5.5 tons of glorious shells. Good for keeping heads down and adding constant, supplemental firepower during a brawl, but terrible on its own.

[One Medic Army]

Durant Carlyle, on 13 April 2015 - 08:06 PM, said:

Canon roles would work perfectly in MW:O if Inner Sphere 'Mech customization worked like it was supposed to.

Instead, we have super-customizable gunbags, and everybody and their mother wants to turn MechWarrior Online into Generic Giant Stompy Robot Combat Game #247.

IS customization rules for TT are actually less restrictive than you'd think. Swapping out an AC/10 for a PPC and some heatsinks, or an equivalent weight of LRM tubes wasn't that difficult to do via TT rules actually. Swapping a ML for a PPC was much more difficult. Adding ferro was easy, but Endo was a huge thing (why so many mechs have ferro instead). Engine refits were a huge issue, jumpjets being added was worse. DHS was actually a relatively cheap and easy upgrade IIRC. So if we were following more closely to TT rules, you'd have atlases with an AC/20 in each side torso, backed up by medium lasers, running a std300 engine, ferro and DHS.

[Pjwned]

Avengar, on 13 April 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

what is your opinion on doubling the armor value on mechs?
I like the idea I think it would hurt the effectiveness of Alpha Strikes and make longer lasting games

Bad idea that would screw over light mechs, so no.

Mcgral18, on 13 April 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

It's already been doubled. The thing is...most weapons fire at 3x+ times their TT values, making that increase less effective.

Some also fire at 18x TT values....Gotta love those AC90s.

I would just like to remind people that the "10 second turns" in TT served no function other than immersion and that comparing "once per turn" and "once every ~3 seconds in real time" doesn't make sense.

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More armour won't really change much. More internal structure I could get behind, making critical hits actually mean something rather than : "Oh, I have no armour left, I'm dead in one hit anyways."

I'm not saying increased structure is necessarily the wrong idea, especially if that somehow made the standard structure upgrade actually worth something, but the critical hit system wouldn't be so unbalanced if we didn't have ammo packs as durable as a giant autocannon and if 10+ damage pinpoint weapons weren't so unbalanced when they deal automatic full crit damage to a component as soon as the weapon goes through the armor, even when breaching the armor and doing only 1 point of damage or less to the structure. This stupidly unbalanced system makes it so that weapons simply made for punching holes in mechs are also the best at dealing crits, and the weapons that are supposed to be good at dealing crits are actually crap.

Ammo explosions should also be somewhat of a concern on any mech but they're not because they're so rare that only minimal adjustments are ever required to work around them, and if you do die to an ammo explosion it's pretty much always terrible luck more than any other possible factor by far.

Edited by Pjwned, 14 April 2015 - 12:21 AM.