20 replies to this topic

[Zvolimir the Blackhand]

Just because...let's say...I'm curious...

Would the Clans be a good place for a hard military simulation unit? Motivated, driven, with fully functioning officers?

Would it help if there was a training program and that the community is open, honest and willing to spend time involving you in all sorts of activities other than the mindless drag that is the group queue?

What if the unit were, let's say, devoted to attending and hosting community events such as leagues and tournaments?

Let's also say this unit might...I dunno...have a particular and ridiculously specific goal that required the clans to crusade all the way to the other side of the Inner Sphere?

Just asking, as I'm not familiar with your communities or temperament.

[Star Trek]

No, they would not.

Edited by Star Trek, 07 April 2015 - 09:26 PM.

[Burnsidhe]

The Clans would be a *terrible* place to try to do that.

None of the Clans have a rigid hierarchy. Every officer earns their place by 'trials of position' which basically boils down to 'how good a mech pilot are you?' The number of opponents you drop determines how high a rank you have.. and every one of your decisions could be challenged by anyone else dueling you for it.

They're a warrior culture, but they're NOT a military culture.

[Zvolimir the Blackhand]

Do any actual clanners have thoughts on this?

[Chadamir Fitzkrieg]

I think Davion were the best leadership/structured of the houses.

[Koniving]

Huh. Must be a Tea Ceremony.

That's an entirely role playing thing. The issue is finding a unit that role plays when they play. Most of those left ages ago when MWO steered away from being a real simulator. (Though re-reading it again, I see you mean that your unit is like that. In which case, I suppose it won't matter where you do it. It's just a matter of finding other groups that also get that way.).

Glad to see that some are still around.

Far as the character of the Clan society... I will say this.
But before that, The Inner Sphere

Spoiler

First, imagine the Inner Sphere universe akin to Firefly. The closer to each faction's capital planet (and Terra/Earth) you go, the technology is progressively better while those on their borders isn't that far fetched from cowboys and indians with dinosaurs.

I'm not kidding on the dinosaurs.

Spoiler

Told you I wasn't kidding.

Now... The Inner Sphere has militaries, each house has different methods and emphasis. Liao's offense uses elite and top notch units, espionage, deception, and various underhanded tactics. Defense? Mixture of well-trained and poorly-trained military personnel and civilians. Vehicle stops moving? Yank the crew out and bring it back to the fight. Mech fell over because the pilot lost consciousness or died? Yank him out and the closest man will get it going. Trying to breach a Liao defense is akin to fighting zombies, every time you think you took something out it will spring back to life with someone else inside. The next time you shoot down that Urbanmech, you might've just killed a kid, whose father you just killed moments ago.

I know little of the others. Davions are witty. Kurita are very formal, but are not above exchanging puns and blows with their enemies.
Kurita/Davion exchange:


Steiner leaders are notoriously incompetent, the typical belief is that they buy their ranks.

Mariks are run by politicians who -- and I'm quite literal about this -- are too busy with slaughtering the English language with jargon to get anything done. No offense to them, just how the fluff is.




Ultimately if the Inner Sphere can be analogue to Firefly...The Houses are analogue to Game of Thrones.

So what are the Clans?

Spoiler

Spoiler

Klingons.

Or rather the source of Klingon evolution, if you really think about it. Quite possibly the two fictions inspired one another.

Here's what you're in for.

Plenty of chances to chew out the lower castes that maintain your 'Mechs (that's a good way to find your 'Mech malfunctioning at the wrong moment).

Having to beat down your superiors in a Circle of Equals. Given that you'd be a Freeborn, you're bound to be treated like absolute crap by some of the more 'entitled' Trueborn. Great way to get a Klingon Promotion.

A Trueborn Mechwarrior of Clan Ghost Bear.


Man, it sucks to be a Technician.


So anyway... I dunno about the real people playing as Clanners. But there ya go, I suppose. Oh, one thing that the Tube Babies hate: Never use a contraction. They don't like it when you won't use proper English which evidently couldn't possibly include things like combining do and not to make don't. Doesn't make much sense, does it? (Deal with it, Clanners!)

Well, if you didn't have Clams responding yet, you're gonna now.

*Skitters off.*

Edited by Koniving, 07 April 2015 - 10:48 PM.

[Bregor Edain]

Burnsidhe, on 07 April 2015 - 09:53 PM, said:

The Clans would be a *terrible* place to try to do that.

None of the Clans have a rigid hierarchy. Every officer earns their place by 'trials of position' which basically boils down to 'how good a mech pilot are you?' The number of opponents you drop determines how high a rank you have.. and every one of your decisions could be challenged by anyone else dueling you for it.

They're a warrior culture, but they're NOT a military culture.

There is also precedent for promotions without trials. While there is a hierarchy, there is no great dependancy on his/her superior officers. How good a sibkin performs in a trial of position determines his initial rank. If that is an officer rank then how good he is at command will determine how long he will keep the rank. As for challenges to command, the same thing can happen in other militaries but that is with paperwork or taking over command of someone that does not function well enough for whatever reason.

[CyclonerM]

Well, why not?

Do not listen to these loudy Spheroids. From what i know, only some Clan units hold Trials of Position for promotions. In CWI, achieving a higher number of kills in the ToP makes a cadet elegible for higher rank and relative training, but not the actual rank.

By all means, my unit and similar units like CGBI or CGSI have a highly structured Touman. CWI has always had a good number of army veterans, too.

Communty events sound interesting. We like to have our own fun events too.

I cannot promise anything about your "specific goal " though, since the Clans' goal is Terra, first and foremost

Lastly.. From what i hear and experience in CW, each Clan is a more or less tightly knit family.

[RubyFire]

In JFP, ToP's determine a Cadets place within the actual unit. However, in the real world, we have officers and some dedicated and truly inspiring mechwarriors and even cadets who can call the shots, if they show the initiative to do so. Further, the ranks don't really determine anything outside of what number you put in front of your name on teamspeak. Even further than that, we continually do training for all cadets, and any other clanner who wishes to attend them.

So, it depends on the clan. We like to be open to all, and encourage others to view what we do and get in on it.

Edited by Z3R0 0N3, 08 April 2015 - 09:40 AM.

[_Comrade_]

The clans would be a great place for a military driven unit. The clans rank structure is actually not that different from IS ranks, you have your mechwarrior point 1 to point 3 which is your enlisted, point 4 and 5 are your NCO's (or at least equivalent to Inner sphere sergeants) and then your star commanders and above as officers. In lore , rank is attained by TOP's but most units here in MWO aren't just going to give a high rank simply cause your a good shot, that was the problem with Clan Coyote and the reason why it crumbled before CW. They were giving officer ranks to people who didn't deserved it. Simply put, it's not practical to award ranks the way they award it in lore. JFP leaves some of the integrity of the lore by allowing mechwarriors to challenge each other for rank though, so in JFP we found a great medium between lore and what is actually practical.

And to repeat CyclonerM, unless your goal is for the clans to conquer Terra and destroy House Steiner and House Kurtia i doubt very few clan units would be interested in your goal

Edited by Grimwill, 08 April 2015 - 11:27 PM.

[Sirius Drake]

TL;DR:
The Clan military structure is made out of warriors, not soldiers.
They follow a warriors ethos/codex.
Not useable in game so a caln unit is pretty much aunit like very other unit.

[Zvolimir the Blackhand]

Thanks for the input, fellas.

[Sandersson Jankins]

I feel that the Clans would be a superior place for such a thing. Granted, I have little experience with them besides fighting them- FRR only pilot here. I'm very familiar with the lore in BT, but that isn't why I say the Clans would be better for that.

Seems as though the Clan units are more favorable of structure in any sense, while IS are more rag-tag.

Really, it'll come down more to seeking out a group regardless of structure that fits your exact needs. Or make one yourself! There will be individuals looking for the experience you describe in any faction- there always are in a game such at this. You just gotta seek 'em out. I've done "military simulation" type groups in other games, both as a major leader, minor leader, and simple "enlisted" soldier. They attract a certain person. In my experience, you must be very choosy. Many people looking for this sort of thing are self-described "future military" younger folks that may lack maturity.

Good luck, m8. I want everyone to have fun in any capacity the wish; so long as it does not detriment others. I wanted my unit to be a pseudo-milsim sort of group, "RPing" hastily-thrown together militia. However, my schedule doesn't really permit me to be as active in-game as I have been in previous ones.

[Lawrence Elsa]

CyclonerM, on 08 April 2015 - 04:20 AM, said:

Well, why not?

Do not listen to these loudy Spheroids. From what i know, only some Clan units hold Trials of Position for promotions. In CWI, achieving a higher number of kills in the ToP makes a cadet elegible for higher rank and relative training, but not the actual rank.

By all means, my unit and similar units like CGBI or CGSI have a highly structured Touman. CWI has always had a good number of army veterans, too.

Communty events sound interesting. We like to have our own fun events too.

I cannot promise anything about your "specific goal " though, since the Clans' goal is Terra, first and foremost

Lastly.. From what i hear and experience in CW, each Clan is a more or less tightly knit family.

Pretty much this. We all treat our members with respect because we know that this is all for fun, and when we do promotions for anyone above Mechwarrior (such as Star Commander or Star Captain), we almost always do it through trust and ability to organize groups (as well as moderate the website properly). All of our officers right now got their rank because they are just good at commanding and keeping with scheduled practice, but we have promoted people based on skill in the past and... well... that's one of the biggest reasons why Delta Galaxy exists now...

As for clans in an actual society? It would be great for training only if you were genetically created into the Warrior Caste or at least a member of it for Clan Ghost Bear/Clan Wolf (hell, clan Jade Falcon actually killed off entire planets worth of people during the invasion out of their sheer hatred of freeborn humans). The biggest failing of the clans in lore was their prejudice, hubris, and lack of numbers against the inner-sphere, which was why everything after 3058 sucked ass for the clans.

EDIT: Oh, with that said, you are probably wondering "why even stick with the clans if you know that they're essentially the bad guys" well, to that I would have a few reasons, but here are the biggest two:

• I picked Clan Wolf when I was 5 years old back when Mechwarrior 2 came out for the PC because they seemed like they were the good guys.
  
• I stayed with Clan Wolf for all this time because the Warden Clans would be the greatest enemy to the Word of Blake, who essentially allowed Mechwarrior Dark Age to happen, and I will do everything in my power to stop MWDA from happening. can't move and shoot on the same turn... who designs a game like that?!

Edited by Lawrence Elsa, 12 April 2015 - 12:10 AM.

[Sandersson Jankins]

Lawrence Elsa, on 11 April 2015 - 11:55 PM, said:

Pretty much this. We all treat our members with respect because we know that this is all for fun, and when we do promotions for anyone above Mechwarrior (such as Star Commander or Star Captain), we almost always do it through trust and ability to organize groups (as well as moderate the website properly). All of our officers right now got their rank because they are just good at commanding and keeping with scheduled practice, but we have promoted people based on skill in the past and... well... that's one of the biggest reasons why Delta Galaxy exists now...

As for clans in an actual society? It would be great for training only if you were genetically created into the Warrior Caste or at least a member of it for Clan Ghost Bear/Clan Wolf (hell, clan Jade Falcon actually killed off entire planets worth of people during the invasion out of their sheer hatred of freeborn humans). The biggest failing of the clans in lore was their prejudice, hubris, and lack of numbers against the inner-sphere, which was why everything after 3058 sucked ass for the clans.

It's funny, many people assume because a group considered themselves "milsim" or something similar, that they will be a snobbish, elitist bunch of IRL veterans that promote people to positions based upon personal tastes, or an "old boys club"

Most groups like this in nearly any game I've found (at least the groups worth a damn- that ain't hard to discern) base ranks on practical matters, like administration, logistics, field marshalling, or theory-crafting/strategy. It's all about being as effective as possible while maintaining relatively rigid structure based upon people's desire for a milsim experience.

As for your second bit, I guess "in-universe", the AFFS, FWLM, or I guess nearly ANY Inner Sphere military would be exactly the experience you are wishing for, given that portion of the house military was competent.

Honestly, I selfishly wish nearly all players would RP in some sense. Very selfish wish, as it is immoral to impose your way of having fun on others without consent...but I do dearly wish for it.

[Lawrence Elsa]

Sandersson Jankins, on 12 April 2015 - 12:07 AM, said:

It's funny, many people assume because a group considered themselves "milsim" or something similar, that they will be a snobbish, elitist bunch of IRL veterans that promote people to positions based upon personal tastes, or an "old boys club"

Most groups like this in nearly any game I've found (at least the groups worth a damn- that ain't hard to discern) base ranks on practical matters, like administration, logistics, field marshalling, or theory-crafting/strategy. It's all about being as effective as possible while maintaining relatively rigid structure based upon people's desire for a milsim experience.

As for your second bit, I guess "in-universe", the AFFS, FWLM, or I guess nearly ANY Inner Sphere military would be exactly the experience you are wishing for, given that portion of the house military was competent.

Honestly, I selfishly wish nearly all players would RP in some sense. Very selfish wish, as it is immoral to impose your way of having fun on others without consent...but I do dearly wish for it.

If run correctly, then yes, and we very frequently have people request to drop their rank and have someone else fill their shoes (as well as people leave and come back later after changing their minds). The biggest thing to remember is that rank is more of a responsibility than it is a title, and favoritism/elitism happens when it does become more of a title.

And man how I wish I could role-play more, but after the hoopla that happened near the start of CW, I've been afraid to since I might make CWI look like a bunch of elitist jerks simply for saying things like "If you wish to keep this planet then prove it, freebirth!" or "We are no more human than the mechs we pilot, and no less a weapon than the ordinance they carry... your words fall on deaf ears, surat!"

Edited by Lawrence Elsa, 12 April 2015 - 12:34 AM.

[Sandersson Jankins]

Lawrence Elsa, on 12 April 2015 - 12:23 AM, said:

If run correctly, then yes, and we very frequently have people request to drop their rank and have someone else fill their shoes (as well as people leave and come back later after changing their minds). The biggest thing to remember is that rank is more of a responsibility than it is a title, and favoritism/elitism happens when it does become more of a title.

And man how I wish I could role-play more, but after the hoopla that happened near the start of CW, I've been afraid to since I might make CWI look like a bunch of elitist jerks simply for saying things like "If you wish to keep this planet then prove it, freebirth!" or "We are no more human than the mechs we pilot, and no less a weapon than the ordinance they carry... your words fall on deaf ears, surat!"

I've just returned from more than a year's absence from the game...could you describe what happened in early CW? People get their feathers rustled by role-play banter?

[CyclonerM]

Sandersson Jankins, on 12 April 2015 - 12:54 AM, said:

I've just returned from more than a year's absence from the game...could you describe what happened in early CW? People get their feathers rustled by role-play banter?

Short story:

-Some Clan loyalist (namely, CWI and CGBI) units have been friendly for years, they had agreed to not attack each other in CW and focus on pushing on Terra vs the Inner Sphere (this was true pretty much for most Clan "RP" units)
-Some mercs and even a "Clan" unit (Widowmaker.. Should have expected it) attacked freely other Clans causing discord and distrust between long-friendly units and making them waste time and resources in inter-Clan wars, loyalists were annoyed, mercs were annoyed by them

Now it is kind of settled, though. I hope nothing of this happens again in the new wave of op. Revival..

[Lawrence Elsa]

That and everyone who returned to this game (or who just started playing) saw the roleplay banter as trash-talk and thus retaliated out of spite, or just proceed to shout "NEEEEEERRRRD!" and purposefully interfere with diplomacy for the sake of being a troll.

[Commander A9]

Perhaps the question to be posed should address not a military simulation unit, but a lore unit.

In which case, there are a number of Clan units which follow by lore, with aptly-titled positions and rank, and, yes, trials of position to determine not necessarily promotion, but entry into the Clan.

Clan Wolf International follows this ideal. I've been with the unit for about 4 months now, and I've never looked back. It's an excellent place to be.

Edited by Commander A9, 12 April 2015 - 06:33 AM.