104 replies to this topic

[Ursh]

Chrona, on 17 April 2015 - 08:00 AM, said:

Wanna know why that is? Because FASA always avoided min-maxed idiocy to keep the TT interesting.

No, they did it because...reasons...that's why. Even in TT the Gargoyle sucked, and would get wasted by a warhawk every single time, despite only having a 5 ton weight difference.

There's a reason there's a couple of TROs full of mechs that few people are clamoring for, while still holding out hope for mechs like the marauder, and that reason is that a lot of the FASA mechs were just filler that were thrown together to fill out pages between the mechs that they actually spend more than five minutes designing. Few of the TRO mechs in MWO are packing anything close to their stock configurations, because those stock configurations were often bad even in table top, which was much more forgiving of terrible builds than MWO is. How many firestarters are packing flamers, right? How many stalkers are packing a diverse array of short to long range weaponry? How many Warhawks are packing 4 clan ERPPCs? How many Timber Wolves are packing 2xLRM20?

[Ursh]

Kristov Kerensky, on 17 April 2015 - 03:41 PM, said:

Nova, Supernova, just off the top of my head, pre-FedCom civil war, both rather excellent in TT and both extreme boats. There are more, both Clan and IS, that really have no downsides to their boating, and all pre-FedCom civil war. FASA was great at min/maxing, it was already a staple in TT games for many years before BTech was created. Over 2400 Mechs and their variants, there's quite a few boats that don't suffer for their loadouts.

And like you, I don't consider anything after the Clan introduction as being worth my time

Don't forget the Warhawk Prime in its stock config with 4xCERPPC could sit on a hill and blast away with 60 points of damage round after round after round with very high accuracy, and didn't suffer when mechs tried to close with it either. It was one scary mech in TT, and definitely a boat. If it built up heat, it could spend one round firing 3 cerppc instead of 4 and then spend another couple of rounds after that firing 4 again.

Anyone who had played a couple of games of tabletop could then go through the TROs and pick out which mechs the designers spent some time working on, and which ones they threw together because they had a quota for 10 new heavy mechs but only had ideas for 3.

[Serpieri]

Ursh, on 17 April 2015 - 09:55 PM, said:

No, they did it because...reasons...that's why. Even in TT the Gargoyle sucked, and would get wasted by a warhawk every single time, despite only having a 5 ton weight difference.

There's a reason there's a couple of TROs full of mechs that few people are clamoring for, while still holding out hope for mechs like the marauder, and that reason is that a lot of the FASA mechs were just filler that were thrown together to fill out pages between the mechs that they actually spend more than five minutes designing. Few of the TRO mechs in MWO are packing anything close to their stock configurations, because those stock configurations were often bad even in table top, which was much more forgiving of terrible builds than MWO is. How many firestarters are packing flamers, right? How many stalkers are packing a diverse array of short to long range weaponry? How many Warhawks are packing 4 clan ERPPCs? How many Timber Wolves are packing 2xLRM20?

Um everyone that played Battletech knows a Warhawk will beat a Gargoyle. The Warhawk BPV is 3,194, a Gargoyle is 1,537. So a fair comparison would be a Warhawk vs 2 Gargoyles - the outcome is no longer one sided now. Each mech in Battletech had a role to fill and logistics played a part in what each player can put on the map.This is why its been said many times to PGI weight doesn't balance matches.

Edited by Serpieri, 17 April 2015 - 10:44 PM.

[Sarlic]

Sean Lang, on 17 April 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

No questions where 'edited', I'm sorry your question didn't make it, but the reality is there was 15+ pages of questions only x amount of time.

Yeah, just like to previous Town halls... Sorry i don't buy it. No offense. I remember a specific previous town hall where community concerns were deflected and got goofy questions and answers instead.

About the reality you should make a poll about particul subjects and make questions on that instead of having a page where people ask questions.

Edited by Sarlic, 17 April 2015 - 10:44 PM.

[Parnage Winters]

The focus on the situation, ie, what people are or should be on about is the fact that NGNG is too damn close to PGI to act as some sort of go between the community and the devs.

This isn't the first time nor will it likely be the last time issues like the OP's arise. No one is asking for journalistic integrity here, you're just a fan website/community but it's become increasingly clear that NGNG is willing to side with PGI over the community. That's fine, again your fans, you're allowed to support and have your own views and thoughts.

What isn't fine is pretending like you're doing us a favor. Town hall meetings are supposed to be a open forum for people to ask questions and have them answered. Not for you to screen topics. It appears to of happened before and this isn't the first time it's come up. Perhaps it's time for a more.. neutral 3rd party to handle things or these need to be labeled as a press conference where screening tends to take place quite commonly.

[Bill Lumbar]

Sean Lang, on 17 April 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

No questions where 'edited', I'm sorry your question didn't make it, but the reality is there was 15+ pages of questions only x amount of time.

Sean.... I have played with you in game, including one where you banned a player on your team for "team killing a dev" while you had that event running. I respect you for the most part, and you seem like a decent guy from what little I know of you and the drops I have played against and with you.

The fact is that my question several town halls ago was edited.... and edited to the point that my words, and question wasn't my own any longer. I have screen shots of the chat, and the question I asked, and it was very simple and direct, to the point. The question that was asked under my name by the mods, wasn't the question I typed into the chat screen regarding the painful grind and lack of earnings being a issue with this game, IMO. I can't speak for the OP's claim, but I know for a fact that my question was "edited" and completely changed when presented to Russ to answer.

Edited by Bill Lumbar, 18 April 2015 - 12:06 AM.

[Bill Lumbar]

Sarlic, on 17 April 2015 - 10:42 PM, said:

Yeah, just like to previous Town halls... Sorry i don't buy it. No offense. I remember a specific previous town hall where community concerns were deflected and got goofy questions and answers instead.

About the reality you should make a poll about particul subjects and make questions on that instead of having a page where people ask questions.

I also remember that very same Town hall meeting....many good question got deflected, several completely off the wall/goofey questions got asked and answered by Russ, in attempts to "dodge" questions that Russ didn't want to discuss as it seemed.

[Kuritaclan]

Sarlic, on 17 April 2015 - 10:42 PM, said:

Yeah, just like to previous Town halls... Sorry i don't buy it. No offense. I remember a specific previous town hall where community concerns were deflected and got goofy questions and answers instead.

About the reality you should make a poll about particul subjects and make questions on that instead of having a page where people ask questions.

+

Sean Lang, on 17 April 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

No questions where 'edited', I'm sorry your question didn't make it, but the reality is there was 15+ pages of questions only x amount of time.

Town hall Meetings should be on a regular basis, so that there is more preperation time. And if you say 15+ pages of questions are to much to handle, the selection by you may fit or don't fit - anyway it is something to complain about. If you would have had more prep time, you could have done https://strawpoll.me/ to questionblocks. You wouldn't be blamed for skipping questions, since everybody have a chance to let his question be one of the top priority, if others who vote see it the same way.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 18 April 2015 - 12:30 AM.

[Ursh]

Serpieri, on 17 April 2015 - 10:38 PM, said:

Um everyone that played Battletech knows a Warhawk will beat a Gargoyle. The Warhawk BPV is 3,194, a Gargoyle is 1,537. So a fair comparison would be a Warhawk vs 2 Gargoyles - the outcome is no longer one sided now. Each mech in Battletech had a role to fill and logistics played a part in what each player can put on the map.This is why its been said many times to PGI weight doesn't balance matches.

And the Gargoyle still doesn't make any sense to the clans from a logistics point of view. Have to train two pilots, have to supply two ammo hungry mechs instead of one energy-focused mech, and need to bring 160 tons to defeat an 85 ton mech.
For a society of superior scientists and warriors, the Gargoyle has no reason to exist. It's an oversized heavy with poor firepower that requires a lot of logistic support. Never should have made it past the drawing board.

[Khobai]

I personally think the non-S omnipods should be able to remove jumpjets. But the jumpjets should remain locked on the S-omnipods. So the summoner would be able to remove its jumpjets but the timberwolf-S wouldnt be able to.

[Serpieri]

Ursh, on 18 April 2015 - 01:41 AM, said:

And the Gargoyle still doesn't make any sense to the clans from a logistics point of view. Have to train two pilots, have to supply two ammo hungry mechs instead of one energy-focused mech, and need to bring 160 tons to defeat an 85 ton mech.
For a society of superior scientists and warriors, the Gargoyle has no reason to exist. It's an oversized heavy with poor firepower that requires a lot of logistic support. Never should have made it past the drawing board.

It does make sense the Gargoyle is primarily used by Clan Wolf who uses that mech in conjunction with the Timber Wolf. Even the Innersphere uses low cost mechs because they are easier to build/maintain and can be fielded in greater numbers. We can even this applied in the real world - how many Shermans did it usually take to destroy a Panzer Tank and what tactic did they use to take it down. I'll give you a hint, same tactic that is used in TT and seen in the movie Fury.

Almost forgot - those superior scientists did create a superior weapon (Clan Tech) - and those Superior Warriors are grown in tubes.

Edited by Serpieri, 18 April 2015 - 08:02 AM.

[CantHandletheTruth]

Ursh, on 17 April 2015 - 10:06 PM, said:

Don't forget the Warhawk Prime in its stock config with 4xCERPPC could sit on a hill and blast away with 60 points of damage round after round after round with very high accuracy, and didn't suffer when mechs tried to close with it either. It was one scary mech in TT, and definitely a boat. If it built up heat, it could spend one round firing 3 cerppc instead of 4 and then spend another couple of rounds after that firing 4 again.

It had 40 heat disapation (20 DHS), you only fired four if you were in trouble, that was two shutdown rolls AND a roll for the pilot passing out because you were sitting at 20 heat. You could fire 3 easily,

Awesome could blast away with its 28 SHS, it didn't make half of the heat a Warhawk generated in round though

[Ursh]

CantHandletheTruth, on 18 April 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

It had 40 heat disapation (20 DHS), you only fired four if you were in trouble, that was two shutdown rolls AND a roll for the pilot passing out because you were sitting at 20 heat. You could fire 3 easily,

Awesome could blast away with its 28 SHS, it didn't make half of the heat a Warhawk generated in round though

I'm corrected. For some reason I'm thinking it had 30 dhs...not sure why. Maybe I worked it out differently or something.

edit2: Now I remember. In Tabletop you could simply switch out the cerppc for large pulse, much like people do in MWO, and start calling torso shots on IS mechs you knew where running xl engines. In tournaments though, using purely stock mechs, I still rarely saw anyone running gargoyles.

Edited by Ursh, 18 April 2015 - 11:37 AM.

[Ursh]

Serpieri, on 18 April 2015 - 07:52 AM, said:

It does make sense the Gargoyle is primarily used by Clan Wolf who uses that mech in conjunction with the Timber Wolf. Even the Innersphere uses low cost mechs because they are easier to build/maintain and can be fielded in greater numbers. We can even this applied in the real world - how many Shermans did it usually take to destroy a Panzer Tank and what tactic did they use to take it down. I'll give you a hint, same tactic that is used in TT and seen in the movie Fury.

Almost forgot - those superior scientists did create a superior weapon (Clan Tech) - and those Superior Warriors are grown in tubes.

Clans invest a lot more into their mechwarriors than the IS houses do, and have much, much higher drop out rate. It doesn't really make any sense from a logistics point of view to flood the field with numbers when three centuries of batchall encouraged commanders to bid the lowest number of assets they thought were necessary to win the battle. That means the best mechwarriors in the most efficient machines possible. If someone told a group of khans they could give them two 80 ton mechs that might be able to beat one 85 ton mech, they'd be told to gtfo unless they had some ultra cheap mech for the solamna units. The exploits of clan wolf were largely a result of fiction authors choosing them as the awesome BFFs of the IS clan, just like the Smoke Jaguars got chosen to be the non-BFFs of the IS and wiped out. If Clan Wolf was as smart as the novels made them out to be, they'd take a Hellbringer over a Gargoyle, because it runs as fast and carries way more firepower, while being cheaper to produce and maintain.

The Shermans vs Panzers argument is not applicable. The dirty truth of wars until very modern times is that American commanders, much like their counterparts, were prepared to throw enough soldiers and equipment at the problem to overwhelm the enemy. Additionally, one of the reasons some of the German tanks fared so well against Shermans wasn't just that the tank itself was better, it was that the best tanks were only given to elite crews, while Shermans were staffed with whoever could pass tank school. It also helped that 80% of the Wehrmacht was busy fighting the Red Army and their T-34s, but that's a different discussion.

[C E Dwyer]

Ursh, on 18 April 2015 - 01:41 AM, said:

And the Gargoyle still doesn't make any sense to the clans from a logistics point of view. Have to train two pilots, have to supply two ammo hungry mechs instead of one energy-focused mech, and need to bring 160 tons to defeat an 85 ton mech.
For a society of superior scientists and warriors, the Gargoyle has no reason to exist. It's an oversized heavy with poor firepower that requires a lot of logistic support. Never should have made it past the drawing board.

That's because of the game mechanics, there are plenty of reasons for the gargoyle to exist in a more realistic enviroment.

It has less weapons systems which require less complex targeting devices, the ease of production means you can churn out more of them, the timberwolf is a much more complex design.

10kph faster on PGI maps makes little difference, but in an enviroment involving hundreds of miles that 10kph, can mean the difference of getting to the right spot and helping win a battle the warhawk could never reach in time

[Ursh]

Cathy, on 18 April 2015 - 01:21 PM, said:

That's because of the game mechanics, there are plenty of reasons for the gargoyle to exist in a more realistic enviroment.

It has less weapons systems which require less complex targeting devices, the ease of production means you can churn out more of them, the timberwolf is a much more complex design.

10kph faster on PGI maps makes little difference, but in an enviroment involving hundreds of miles that 10kph, can mean the difference of getting to the right spot and helping win a battle the warhawk could never reach in time

For moving hundreds of miles, in modern warfare, they put the tanks on trucks or trains, because it's more efficient. For clans, they'd bring down a dropship if the enemy was 500km away, rather than run the mechs there.

Sorry, but in almost every case where you bring into account clan standards for their warriors, as well as their fighting philosophy for over 300 years, the Gargoyle is a massive failure every single time, and never would have been approved because it's terrible.

If you have to run hundreds of kilometers to meet the enemy, then you might as well wait for your warhawks, as they aren't that much slower. Your enemy is certainly going to have their less mobile assaults ready, so hitting them with a fast force that will get gunned down is utterly wasteful, which the clans also abhor.

If you establish air superiority, you land your mechs where you want to. If you don't have air superiority, you certainly don't run off hundreds of kilometers from your drop ships, relying on undefended trucks to bring you supplies.

[CantHandletheTruth]

Cathy, on 18 April 2015 - 01:21 PM, said:

That's because of the game mechanics, there are plenty of reasons for the gargoyle to exist in a more realistic enviroment.

It has less weapons systems which require less complex targeting devices, the ease of production means you can churn out more of them, the timberwolf is a much more complex design.

10kph faster on PGI maps makes little difference, but in an enviroment involving hundreds of miles that 10kph, can mean the difference of getting to the right spot and helping win a battle the warhawk could never reach in time

4 tons of ammo on the prime....for ALL ammo dependant weapons.

It'll always suck.

[Mister Blastman]

Sean Lang, on 17 April 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

No questions where 'edited', I'm sorry your question didn't make it, but the reality is there was 15+ pages of questions only x amount of time.

Then how come people have screenshots that prove otherwise? They didn't fabricate those pictures...

[MauttyKoray]

As a Clan player, I vehemently oppose these ******** bandage fixes that people keep bitching for. Unlocking the fixed equipment/JJs and ES/FF WILL NOT FIX THE MECHS. Unless the devs take a ******* step back and fix the underlying bloated mechanics, high damage pinpoint alpha builds will always be the ONLY mechs that will be meta/top tier. Mechs limited by tonnage/hardpoints only have problems because the heat scale is garbage, armor is severely bloated to compensate for these insane damage builds, a lot of ammo has been bloated to allow ammunition based weapons to compensate, and overall we have these mechs blowing alphas in each other's faces for the win, not the superior aiming, positioning, and piloting.

The reason 12 v 12 snowballs happen is because once you hit a certain point, the firepower of one side is too great to allow the other side to turn it around. A single mech carrying the armor of 2 doesn't matter when 12 mechs being able to unleash roughly 3x the intended damage at a single time focus on it. Another issue is the link of Engine Rating to so many movement variables. It bring less Tactical mech piloting and more of a CoD-esque reaction shooter to the game.

[Serpieri]

Ursh, on 18 April 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

Clans invest a lot more into their mechwarriors than the IS houses do, and have much, much higher drop out rate. It doesn't really make any sense from a logistics point of view to flood the field with numbers when three centuries of batchall encouraged commanders to bid the lowest number of assets they thought were necessary to win the battle. That means the best mechwarriors in the most efficient machines possible. If someone told a group of khans they could give them two 80 ton mechs that might be able to beat one 85 ton mech, they'd be told to gtfo unless they had some ultra cheap mech for the solamna units. The exploits of clan wolf were largely a result of fiction authors choosing them as the awesome BFFs of the IS clan, just like the Smoke Jaguars got chosen to be the non-BFFs of the IS and wiped out. If Clan Wolf was as smart as the novels made them out to be, they'd take a Hellbringer over a Gargoyle, because it runs as fast and carries way more firepower, while being cheaper to produce and maintain.

The Shermans vs Panzers argument is not applicable. The dirty truth of wars until very modern times is that American commanders, much like their counterparts, were prepared to throw enough soldiers and equipment at the problem to overwhelm the enemy. Additionally, one of the reasons some of the German tanks fared so well against Shermans wasn't just that the tank itself was better, it was that the best tanks were only given to elite crews, while Shermans were staffed with whoever could pass tank school. It also helped that 80% of the Wehrmacht was busy fighting the Red Army and their T-34s, but that's a different discussion.

InnerSphere invest just as much from standard military training grounds to prestigious academies for their elite. Clans system of bidding works well and many trials had multiple combatants fighting a single person. The warrior that bid the least amount of resources won the right to attack. The Warrior that challenged with a single Warhawk would have been out bid by the warrior that challenged with 2 Gargoyles because they cost less to field. Solamna warriors were assigned second line battletemechs and old SLDF mechs not Omnimechs. What does the exploits of the clans have to do with any of this? Also the Hellbringer mech costs 2,654, the Gargoyle is 1,537 which means that the Hellbringer requires more logistics/resources to build and maintain.

You just confirmed my point is applicable with the Shermans and Panzers. A star of Warhawks would be overwhelmed by two stars of Gargoyles and in that aftermath of the battle the damaged/destroyed Gargoyles would be up and running again while the Warhawks would still be in the mechbay.

Edited by Serpieri, 18 April 2015 - 04:18 PM.