169 replies to this topic

[STEF_]

Nick Makiaveli, on 18 April 2015 - 10:33 PM, said:

And why should they do anything else? Out of the goodness of their hearts? Great idea. Just give away all the cockpit items, mechbays etc for free!!! Just let people donate as they see fit!!! Will work great!!!


So tell me something...why isn't that standard practice? If it's such a wonderful system, why don't you go out and start a game on kickstarter with that business model? Surely people would just toss millions at you, after its what you want, and that should be enough for anyone!!!

Pgi did that!
And BT fans threw a lot of money to have what? a fps in the pitiful state as it is?

But hey! robottos have those names!!! the names!!!! so it's all ok. This is a battletech game.

lol

[Madcap72]

Stefka Kerensky, on 18 April 2015 - 10:50 PM, said:

Pgi did that!
And BT fans threw a lot of money to have what? a fps in the pitiful state as it is?

But hey! robottos have those names!!! the names!!!! so it's all ok. This is a battletech game.

lol

So clearly at this point you're just generating static.



If my web brower had a radar display you'd be making it say "low signal".


Do you have an actual argument or soloution aat this point, or are you just more intersted in nit picking and semantics?

[MoonfireSpam]

Suko, on 17 April 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

Honestly, what happened with that? I was following it initially, then I got busy with other things and the last I heard, it had essentially evaporated.

I'm pretty sure they destroyed themselves helped by the community where everyone knows "best".

[STEF_]

Madcap72, on 19 April 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

So clearly at this point you're just generating static.



If my web brower had a radar display you'd be making it say "low signal".


Do you have an actual argument or soloution aat this point, or are you just more intersted in nit picking and semantics?

Honestly you, not me (because I've already proposed an alternative, I'm sure you could read them, right?) should propose a solution for the Radar Display (that, being a DISPLAY, it should display something)

In any case you've already stated your opinion about how you feel fun a ninja style robottos online. Repetition can become boring.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 19 April 2015 - 10:12 AM.

[MoonfireSpam]

Dunno I think it's cool that a lance or whatever can not show up on radar and instead get called out by a scout yelling grid positions and force composition.

Although if we are taking about adding stuff, hell why not just add a 1 ton Command Module that shows up all visual contacts on the battlegrid. That'd be kind cool as well.

Edited by MoonfireSpam, 19 April 2015 - 10:14 AM.

[S13gtastic]

What would rock is having Active and Passive Radar togglable. Scounts can switch to passive making targeting line of site only and prevents them from being seen on Radar unless spoted or NARC and TAg. Change ECM to be a counter messure to seeing Load-out information while making it hard to maintain missle-locks on targets with out the aid of NARC or TAG and BAP as the counter to being able to gain that information.

The thing would be sure you can see the enemy if your radar is passive but if you want to give your teamates the happy little triangle of lock then you would have to be in active radar which would give away your position to the enemy.

Would add a lot of depth to the fights. A man can dream....a man can dream.

[Mystere]

S13gtastic, on 19 April 2015 - 04:41 PM, said:

What would rock is having Active and Passive Radar togglable. Scounts can switch to passive making targeting line of site only and prevents them from being seen on Radar unless spoted or NARC and TAg. Change ECM to be a counter messure to seeing Load-out information while making it hard to maintain missle-locks on targets with out the aid of NARC or TAG and BAP as the counter to being able to gain that information.

The thing would be sure you can see the enemy if your radar is passive but if you want to give your teamates the happy little triangle of lock then you would have to be in active radar which would give away your position to the enemy.

Would add a lot of depth to the fights. A man can dream....a man can dream.

I agree with passive radar.

As for your changes to ECM, no. Barring any new suggestion that I might end up liking, I'd rather it stays as is.

[Madcap72]

Mystere, on 19 April 2015 - 05:01 PM, said:

I agree with passive radar.

As for your changes to ECM, no. Barring any new suggestion that I might end up liking, I'd rather it stays as is.

+1 with everything you said.


The ONLY thing ECM hurts as is are people with LRM boats that don't know you can dumbfire missles accuratly.
Between all the ways to counter ECM including communication and teamwork ECM even if "over powered" is easy to mitigate.

ECM doesn't do much that cover doesn't.

I've always felt that the "red alert 2" style is the best way to fix things, don't nerf and weaken things, make them more powerful with more powerful counters!

[Madcap72]

Stefka Kerensky, on 19 April 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

Honestly you, not me (because I've already proposed an alternative, I'm sure you could read them, right?) should propose a solution for the Radar Display (that, being a DISPLAY, it should display something)

In any case you've already stated your opinion about how you feel fun a ninja style robottos online. Repetition can become boring.

Am I reading you incorrectly that your entire premise is that since ECM keeps things from displaying on the battlemap, that it is not displaying things and as such is "broken"?

Stefka Kerensky, on 19 April 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

Honestly you, not me (because I've already proposed an alternative, I'm sure you could read them, right?) should propose a solution for the Radar Display (that, being a DISPLAY, it should display something)

In any case you've already stated your opinion about how you feel fun a ninja style robottos online. Repetition can become boring.

Am I reading you incorrectly that your entire premise is that since ECM keeps things from displaying on the battlemap, that it is not displaying things and as such is "broken"?

[JaxRiot]

Madcap72, on 19 April 2015 - 06:04 PM, said:

I've always felt that the "red alert 2" style is the best way to fix things, don't nerf and weaken things, make them more powerful with more powerful counters!

Stepping away from the ECM specific for a sec with an honest question here:

Doesnt continually buffing several things instead of bringing one thing closer to being inline create power creep?

[STEF_]

Madcap72, on 19 April 2015 - 06:09 PM, said:

Am I reading you incorrectly that your entire premise is that since ECM keeps things from displaying on the battlemap, that it is not displaying things and as such is "broken"?



Am I reading you incorrectly that your entire premise is that since ECM keeps things from displaying on the battlemap, that it is not displaying things and as such is "broken"?

Are you dodging my question? Because it's quite difficult not to see those giants maps and radar displays.
My complains are quite clear: mwo becoming a fps, empty radar display during matches.
Again, imo ecm is been a tool to broke the game, and note: I didn't have any problem with lurm before ecm, and I don't have any problem to shoot at mech now, even without doritos.
BUT, thread title, I like Battletech more, because mwo is been broken, because it is far way less strategical, and too much fps; ecm has broken game mechanics.
Have you, or any ecm fan boys, any tips about this?

(so, this post seems to me quite clear, just curious how you will manage to dodge the question about how to fix radar display )

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 19 April 2015 - 09:26 PM.

[MoonfireSpam]

Stefka Kerensky, on 19 April 2015 - 09:08 PM, said:

Are you dodging my question? Because it's quite difficult not to see those giants maps and radar displays.
My complains are quite clear: mwo becoming a fps, empty radar display during matches.
Again, imo ecm is been a tool to broke the game, and note: I didn't have any problem with lurm before ecm, and I don't have any problem to shoot at mech now, even without doritos.
BUT, thread title, I like Battletech more, because mwo is been broken, because it is far way less strategical, and too much fps; ecm has broken game mechanics.
Have you, or any ecm fan boys, any tips about this?

(so, this post seems to me quite clear, just curious how you will manage to dodge the question about how to fix radar display )

It's simple. Make them visible on the Battlegrid if in visual or UAV range of another mech. Make this require a command module weighing 1 ton. Boom scouting is more useful. Zomg role warfare (scout + mechcommander role).

I will add , my god did you stretch that out into a bit of a rant, people need to learn to be succinct, especially here.

Edited by MoonfireSpam, 19 April 2015 - 11:08 PM.

[Telmasa]

Madcap72, on 19 April 2015 - 06:04 PM, said:

I've always felt that the "red alert 2" style is the best way to fix things, don't nerf and weaken things, make them more powerful with more powerful counters!

A.K.A. Power creep? Please, no.

I know alot of the soapboxing I do has makes it seem like I'm one of the "nerf everything!" guys, but I really don't feel that way. Things should be powerful, just only to a certain limit - and you oughtn't fix over-powered things by making everything else over-powered too.

Then the game just becomes a slapping contest.

I hate slapping contests. (Gauss Jager on Gauss Jager combat notwithstanding.)

I like the idea of ECM only "cloaking" the mech it's mounted on, while greatly aiding teammates in terms of making missiles take longer to lock.

[STEF_]

MoonfireSpam, on 19 April 2015 - 11:07 PM, said:

It's simple. Make them visible on the Battlegrid if in visual or UAV range of another mech. Make this require a command module weighing 1 ton. Boom scouting is more useful. Zomg role warfare (scout + mechcommander role).

I will add , my god did you stretch that out into a bit of a rant, people need to learn to be succinct, especially here.

I like your propose.
I think it should like to ecm ninja fan boys too.
So: if an enemy is in LOS and has ecm, it should be visible in radar display, but without doritos in the battlefield, adding a 1 ton command module. (have I understood right?)
It sounds good to me.

[STEF_]

Telmasa, on 19 April 2015 - 11:14 PM, said:

I like the idea of ECM only "cloaking" the mech it's mounted on, while greatly aiding teammates in terms of making missiles take longer to lock.

and I like your propose to;, although when, in near future, we'll have 12 ecm mechs vs 12 ecm mechs, matches will become "hilarious"

I think that ecm ninja fan boys should like it too....

[MoonfireSpam]

Stefka Kerensky, on 20 April 2015 - 01:30 AM, said:

I like your propose.
I think it should like to ecm ninja fan boys too.
So: if an enemy is in LOS and has ecm, it should be visible in radar display, but without doritos in the battlefield, adding a 1 ton command module. (have I understood right?)
It sounds good to me.

Yups, gets best of both. ECM still keeps the same battle field strength.

Possibly promotes role warfare and makes the command module actually do something.

[Khobai]

Quote

What would rock is having Active and Passive Radar togglable

Yes. ECM should be nerfed so it only stealths the mech its equipped on. But passive radar should also be added so mechs without ECM still have the option to use passive radar to obtain a lesser degree of stealth.



ECM should work as follows:

-Disrupt mode should not have an AOE stealth bubble and ECM should only provide stealth to the mech its directly equipped on.

-Disrupt mode should not prevent missiles from locking on. However ECM should still increase missile lockon time for both the equipped mech AND nearby friendly mechs just like it does now.

-Disrupt mode should counter BAP, TAG, NARC, and Artemis when theyre inside the ECM bubble just like it does now.

-Counter mode should counter enemy ECM just like it does now.


Active/Passive sensors should work as follows:

-You should be able to freely toggle between active/passive sensor modes whenever you want.

-Active sensor mode should work exactly the same as sensors currently do. BAP should only function while in active sensor mode.

-Passive sensor mode should give you similar stealth benefits as ECM except it should also turn off your ability to target enemy mechs, your ability to see detailed info, and your ability to share sensor information with teammates. BAP should also be disabled in passive sensor mode (since BAP is an "active" probe).


LRMs should undergo the following changes:

-Nerf the accuracy/spread/tracking of indirect LRMs. This is required due to the weaker ECM.

-Buff direct fire LRMs, specifically artemis because its currently not worth the tonnage.

-Discourage LRM spamming by decreasing their rate of fire and increasing their damage per missile. This would make LRMs less of a noob weapon because you would have to time your volleys better instead of just holding down the fire button and spamming missiles.

-Implement code that makes ammo switching possible. add thunder LRMs as an alternate ammo type (LRMs that drop mines at their point of impact) so LRMs still have some utility even when the enemy team has heavy stealth coverage. That way LRMs would always be able to do something useful even if they cant lock-on to enemy mechs.


Thunder LRMs

The main purpose of Thunder LRMs would be to discourage the enemy from advancing through mined areas. It would add a much needed element of zone control to the game.

Each thunder LRM would drop 1 mine at its point of impact with the ground. The mines would do X damage to the legs of enemy mechs that walk over them. Mines would be visible and have a duration of about 20-30 seconds before disappearing. The limited duration would prevent mines from being spammed everywhere.

Edited by Khobai, 20 April 2015 - 03:12 AM.

[Madcap72]

Stefka Kerensky, on 19 April 2015 - 09:08 PM, said:

Are you dodging my question? Because it's quite difficult not to see those giants maps and radar displays.
My complains are quite clear: mwo becoming a fps, empty radar display during matches.
Again, imo ecm is been a tool to broke the game, and note: I didn't have any problem with lurm before ecm, and I don't have any problem to shoot at mech now, even without doritos.
BUT, thread title, I like Battletech more, because mwo is been broken, because it is far way less strategical, and too much fps; ecm has broken game mechanics.
Have you, or any ecm fan boys, any tips about this?

(so, this post seems to me quite clear, just curious how you will manage to dodge the question about how to fix radar display )

So after all of the counters to ECM have been described to you, you still hold the false beliefe that there will never be anything displayed on the battlemap? That's hilarious.


Would it make you happier if ECM just displayed a dozen fake targets instead, so that way the battlemap displayed a bunch of targets instead of no targets? Because that would satisfy your argument.

[JaxRiot]

Madcap72, on 20 April 2015 - 07:58 AM, said:

So after all of the counters to ECM have been described to you, you still hold the false beliefe that there will never be anything displayed on the battlemap? That's hilarious.


Would it make you happier if ECM just displayed a dozen fake targets instead, so that way the battlemap displayed a bunch of targets instead of no targets? Because that would satisfy your argument.

I dont mean to sound rude but I get the feeling that you are purposely going to extremes in order to try to trivialize what people are trying to say here.

The truth is that ECM is out of whack. It does too much even passively for the small amount of resources it requires.

For 2 slots and 1.5 tons (1 slot and 1 ton for clan) you get an item that removes a player from the radar and cant even be targeted (by pressing R) unless they are within 200m allowing for sneak alpha attacks. Greatly hinders Target Locks. Bypasses all objects and terrain. Actually counters equipment that is made to counter ECM. Grants nearby allies with the exact same benefits as if they had ECM equipped themselves. And it does all this stuff Passively requiring no effort on the part of the player while generating zero heat and requiring zero ammo.

As for these Counters:

Narc weighs 3 tons and takes 2 slots not counting ammo. If you just go with one ton of ammo, then you just invested 4 tons, a missile slot and 2 crit slots in to try and counter One ECM. Narc also requires line of sight and imo has a very slow projectile speed making it very inaccurate. Plus if there is another enemy ECM close by (which is very likely and will become even more likey as more and more ECM capable mechs become available) then the Narc itself is canceled.

BAP is good. 1 ton and 1 slot. But it only cancels one ECM and if the ECM being canceled is under the umbrella of another ECM (again, very likely and will become even more likely in the future) then BAP is actually canceled.

TAG is really only good for LRMs, but requires Line of Sight, activation, And a lock before even one missile can be fired. Better off to bring pew pew and bang bangs. They would be more effecint.

UAV helps but it is highly localized. Only lasts for 45 seconds, and can be destroyed by a whopping 10 points of damage, has a one time use per map, does not stop ECMs target lock hindrances and actually costs 40,000 c-bills to use. This one just seems crazy to me. 40,000 c-bills per map to try to counter something that functions passively.

So the more and more ECM that will be added to the game will make these counters and the radar less and less effective. And they will do all of this passively while generating zero heat, and requiring zero ammo.

ECM is just simply too strong for what it is right now.

Cheers

Jax

Edited by JaxRiot, 20 April 2015 - 10:07 AM.

[Gyrok]

Stefka Kerensky, on 17 April 2015 - 12:11 AM, said:

Ok, that "battletech game" under "MWO" is related quite only about mechs, I know.

But lemme tell you something about playing BT TT, even with double blind roles.
Let's pretend ecm and null signature system are the same stuff....as PGI is pretending they are.

This is a map, initial turns, double blind rule and ecm or even with null signature system.



But then, proceding with the turns, thanks to scout etc., we have this:






Now in all previous mw and in MWO, while piloting a mech, the most important part of the screen, (and thanks to it you to have ideas and planning a strategy) is THIS: (this should be BT stuff in the mwo screen!!):



and then, thanks to scout and whatsoever, in later minutes (turns in BT) we should have THIS:





BUT, thanks to the weird manner pgi has planned Jesus box, and thanks to Griffin 2n, shadowcat, artic cheetah, black knight coming, and all previous ecm jusus box mechs, we can predict that that important part of planning and SEEING in the map our beloved doritos...is prolly screwed up.

I don't care if "yes, but there is voip" "but there is teamwork", "there is BAP", and this kind of runaround. I care about having that fricking radar screen working and being useful. Because it's the only part of BT we can have, imo.

now two hypothesis:

1) REWORK ECM. No more teamates coverage, at least.

2) LIMIT the number of Jesus box mechs in a team per drop.


"ecm. ecm everywhere" is stupid.

Discuss.

Reworking ECM requires reworking all the systems it impacts...

(short answer: NO!)

As for ECM and doritos, etc. Well, you must not have ever played with angel ECM and stealth armor. That is essentially what we have at the moment...with slightly modified rules.

Is it actually Guardian ECM? No...it is not...it most closely resembles Angel ECM.

I say leave it alone as it is...