169 replies to this topic

[Screech]

Couching your argument in religious bigotry sure is in vogue these days. Adds a lot to ones argument for sure.

[STEF_]

Quxudica, on 17 April 2015 - 04:50 AM, said:

I never said it was, I just said the radar system should be much more robust than it currently is. Personally I think we should have passive and active radar modes we can toggle. Passive provides lower range of detection and can't see over large obstructions, active greatly expands your detection radius but also lets enemy mechs in passive mode detect your location. Further there should be radar associated equipment we can bring to boost the functionality at the cost of weight and crit slots, and some mechs shoulder have Quirks improving their sensor range (you know, to actually encourage role warfare instead of having every mech built like an assault).

I forget who wrote it up but there was a huge post floating around here a long time back that detailed a really in depth radar system overhaul that took into account everything from passive/active modes to radar footprint sizes for larger and smaller mechs and a redesign to lock on weapons associated with radar.

I'm not a huge fan of the way they implemented ECM, I think it's shallow and doesn't make for interesting gameplay. But I also think the lock on functionality of LRM's is equally horribly designed and weakening ECM promotes their use.

I also think having the player rely more on their own situational awareness, needing to actually identify enemy mechs themselves instead of counting on magic red boxes to show you makes for better game play. In my perfect MWO the paint system would be more than just an overpriced cash grab for PGI, camo would serve real practical functions as radar would be less of an all seeing omniscient eye,

Then we agree more than I was thinking.

Anyway in near future we'll have 12 jesus box vs 12 jesus box, which I find it weird, not nearly BT, taking into account that this we play should be "A Battletech game".

The more months the more counterstrike we have.

It's just sad.

[Clint Steel]

Radar in games ruins sneaky attacks/surprises. If me and my friends play an FPS together be would always turn off the map, or before that actually cover up the map on the screen physically with a piece of paper.

So, I like ECM. Sure Mechs are full of Tech that lets them track friends and enemies, but there should also Tech that cancels that out, and since this is a team game, allowing that Tech to help a portion of your team to hide makes sense.

Now thats not to say I feel the system is perfect, especially with more ECM Mechs appearing. Perhaps a smaller bubble around your ECM Mech would be ok. I would like TAG to cancel any locking time slow down on them, since they have to be both in sight and targeted with it.

The other counters are pretty good now, with NARC countering ECM on a solo ECM Mech, BAP being a little better, and UAVs being very prominent. BAP could be a little lighter maybe.

I also wouldn't be against different tonnages of ECM, such as a 2 ton version that covers just your Mech, a 3 ton version that covers an area smaller than current , and a 4 ton version that covers about the same as the current bubble.

[STEF_]

Clint Steel, on 17 April 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

Radar in games ruins sneaky attacks/surprises. If me and my friends play an FPS together be would always turn off the map, or before that actually cover up the map on the screen physically with a piece of paper.

So, I like ECM. Sure Mechs are full of Tech that lets them track friends and enemies, but there should also Tech that cancels that out, and since this is a team game, allowing that Tech to help a portion of your team to hide makes sense.

Now thats not to say I feel the system is perfect, especially with more ECM Mechs appearing. Perhaps a smaller bubble around your ECM Mech would be ok. I would like TAG to cancel any locking time slow down on them, since they have to be both in sight and targeted with it.

The other counters are pretty good now, with NARC countering ECM on a solo ECM Mech, BAP being a little better, and UAVs being very prominent. BAP could be a little lighter maybe.

I also wouldn't be against different tonnages of ECM, such as a 2 ton version that covers just your Mech, a 3 ton version that covers an area smaller than current , and a 4 ton version that covers about the same as the current bubble.

I don't like PGI ecm and PGI BAP, but let's pretend they are BT-ish (ecm and bap in TT are really other stuff)

Using logic, an ecm bubble should screw up an enemy radar INSIDE that bubble; because ecm is a device countering enemy radar, and a device makes a bubble around itself, right? Exactly they do with friendly unit.

But if I'm at medium/long range, why ecm affect my radar? That's why the definition of Jesus box. PGI ecm accumulate a bunch of devices and equipment together, and it's totally insane.
Ok, months passed, we got use to it.

But please, 12 jesus boxes vs 12 jesus boxes game, LOL.

What does the bottom side of the screen (radar display) serve for??? It won't appear anything anymore there !!

What is the sense to alter mw in a "any robotto" FPS?

[Mystere]

Stefka Kerensky, on 17 April 2015 - 12:11 AM, said:

BUT, thanks to the weird manner pgi has planned Jesus box, and thanks to Griffin 2n, shadowcat, artic cheetah, black knight coming, and all previous ecm jusus box mechs, we can predict that that important part of planning and SEEING in the map our beloved doritos...is prolly screwed up.

I don't care if "yes, but there is voip" "but there is teamwork", "there is BAP", and this kind of runaround. I care about having that fricking radar screen working and being useful. Because it's the only part of BT we can have, imo.

now two hypothesis:

1) REWORK ECM. No more teamates coverage, at least.

2) LIMIT the number of Jesus box mechs in a team per drop.


"ecm. ecm everywhere" is stupid.

Discuss.

When I am in an ECM Mech, I make it my job to deny you information.

When I am in any Mech (ECM-equipped or otherwise), I make it my job to kill your information-denying Mechs.

Players rely too much on those Red Doritos. I use that basic knowledge to my team's advantage.

Edited by Mystere, 17 April 2015 - 07:05 AM.

[Clint Steel]

Stefka Kerensky, on 17 April 2015 - 06:34 AM, said:

I don't like PGI ecm and PGI BAP, but let's pretend they are BT-ish (ecm and bap in TT are really other stuff)

Using logic, an ecm bubble should screw up an enemy radar INSIDE that bubble; because ecm is a device countering enemy radar, and a device makes a bubble around itself, right? Exactly they do with friendly unit.

But if I'm at medium/long range, why ecm affect my radar? That's why the definition of Jesus box. PGI ecm accumulate a bunch of devices and equipment together, and it's totally insane.
Ok, months passed, we got use to it.

But please, 12 jesus boxes vs 12 jesus boxes game, LOL.

What does the bottom side of the screen (radar display) serve for??? It won't appear anything anymore there !!

What is the sense to alter mw in a "any robotto" FPS?

I'm not sure what what type of tech BT or MWO uses for their "radar" but pretend it is RADAR, then the ECM isn't just messing with your computer, but is actually messing with the waves, perhaps sending interference patterns out that counteract the RADAR you are sending out. This would explain why you can't target a Mech out even outside of its ECM "bubble".

I agree that as more Mechs get ECM there will also have to be better counters, or balance to their tonnage, like I stated before.

Edited by Clint Steel, 17 April 2015 - 07:08 AM.

[Khobai]

ECM should only stealth the mech its equipped on.

Many of us have been asking for that change for a LONG time.

[Almond Brown]

LordBraxton, on 17 April 2015 - 05:28 AM, said:

Im a CBT fanatic, but I totally disagree with the OP.

I dont like ECM buuuuut,

I think the Doritos should go away in general,

and target information sharing should only happen on IS mechs who invest in C3 computers. It should cost tonnage and be unavailable to clans.

And "if" PGI had put the gear, and it associated weight into every Mech from day 1, thus making things as they are now, but paid for properly per Mech, and was also removable, how many Mechs in MWO today would still be carrying it?

That was likely their dilemma. So they gave it to everyone for FREE. Besides ECM allows for other Tech to be used to counter, despite 99.9% taking a pass just so they can have more PEW PEW or Dakka Dakka.

If someone really dislikes ECM, they should carry counter gear. And I think the "Doritos" are fine, but we could do without the magic red targeting boxes until Mechs reach a certain predetermined range say.

Edited by Almond Brown, 17 April 2015 - 10:47 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Khobai, on 17 April 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

ECM should only stealth the mech its equipped on.

Many of us have been asking for that change for a LONG time.

BT ECM has a 6 for Range. So PGI used that rule. 180m is 6 in the BT game right?

[Quxudica]

LordBraxton, on 17 April 2015 - 05:36 AM, said:

that sounds like role warfare, get out of here with your good ideas heretic, we scrapped role warfare long ago, when we realized timber wolves cost more MC.

Indeed, how dare he suggest a mech be used for anything beyond MASSIVE ALPHA DAMAGE.
Silly mech'er

[Almond Brown]

Quxudica, on 17 April 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

Indeed, how dare he suggest a mech be used for anything beyond MASSIVE ALPHA DAMAGE.
Silly mech'er

Well when Lights Mechs can be the most dangerous things on the Battlefield, who needs Roles...

The Scouts run out and find the enemy, then they proceed to Kill them too.

What is left for any other Role?

[Madcap72]

Mechwarrior isn't Battletech. It's time to stop trying to tie them together.

[Strum Wealh]

Quxudica, on 17 April 2015 - 04:18 AM, said:

Target data transmission is supposed to require a c3 command computer and slave computers on all connecting battle mechs. Without that we aren't supposed to be able to transmit combat data the way we currently do. By all rights each game should have at least one command mech unit that if destroyed seriously impairs or outright removes the ability of the team to share combat data with each other.

LordBraxton, on 17 April 2015 - 05:28 AM, said:

and target information sharing should only happen on IS mechs who invest in C3 computers. It should cost tonnage and be unavailable to clans.

Both of the above statements is false.

"BattleMechs are also not islands unto themselves. They can share sensor data to some extent, allowing greater sensory performance than a single ’Mech can achieve. The specialized equipment of a C3 system takes this to new heights with direct battlefield applications, but all BattleMechs can at least receive basic sensory data from a unit mate." - TechManual, page 39

"As much a revolution in battlefield technology as one of combat philosophy for its creators in the Draconis Combine, the system is essentially an elaborate tight-beam communications suite, designed to link the sensors and targeting systems of up to a full lance of friendly units in a single, closed network. The C3 system enables those within its network to draw targeting data from one another and coordinate fire with amazing ease. As long as effective weapon ranges and lines of fire permit, a member of a C3 network can essentially strike at a target with the same accuracy as the nearest friendly network member." - TechManual, page 209

C3 systems are simply a means for sharing more and better information (including, specifically, targeting and tracking information) with the other members of the same C3 network, but all 'Mechs canonically have the ability to share at least basic information with an allied unit - and it is this universal capability which is what's implemented in MWO currently.

[Suko]

Deathlike, on 17 April 2015 - 12:15 AM, said:

Remember that secret committee used to address ECM?

Yea...

Good luck with that.

Honestly, what happened with that? I was following it initially, then I got busy with other things and the last I heard, it had essentially evaporated.

[Deathlike]

Suko, on 17 April 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

Honestly, what happened with that? I was following it initially, then I got busy with other things and the last I heard, it had essentially evaporated.

AFAIK, it failed before it got anywhere... due to massive conflicting options...

You have to be able to revamp the entire system regardless, and Russ was only going to take the easy route for a quick fix (easy to implement ideas). This in itself is a massive conflict of interest, thus "technically" a desired result (for a particular party) that wouldn't get any changes accomplished.

Edited by Deathlike, 17 April 2015 - 12:42 PM.

[Suko]

I know it sounds rude to say it this way, but I always felt that ECM was the pet idea from someone high up in the company (or their wife), because this system has been a wreck for YEARS. It's better now than it was 2 years ago, but good Lord it's convoluted. No game mechanic should require 5 minutes to explain to a new player. Hell, it shouldn't take more than a single minute, but good luck with that with the current ECM setup.

[STEF_]

Madcap72, on 17 April 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

Mechwarrior isn't Battletech. It's time to stop trying to tie them together.

(where is the dislike button?)...

[Zolaz]

Quxudica, on 17 April 2015 - 04:27 AM, said:

Overview

Normally carried by the lance commander, the C3 Command Unit is the hub to which three C3 Slave Units on other friendly 'Mechs can connect. However C3 Command Units can also be linked in this manner to expand the network, the command units of each of lance commanders can be connected to a second separate command unit carried by the company command 'Mech/vehicle. Due to complexity required to coordinate C3 networks, they can not be expanded beyond company size, or multiple companies linked together, even with the addition of extra command vehicles. The limitations in unit size are part of the reason for the ComStar developed Improved C3 Computer.

As well as serving to share the linked lance/companies targeting data, the C3 Command Unit also duplicates the function of Target Acquisition Gear and can designate a target for Arrow IV homing missiles and Semi-Guided LRMs.
A C3 Command Unit is typically carried by a heavy or assault 'Mech due to its the larger size and weight, and its importance as the hub of a C3 network. Outright destruction or interruption by ECM of a command unit is quickest way to bring down the portion of the C3 network it controls.

Wow ... that sounds like role warfare.

[Telmasa]

Swap the current Angel-style ECM for MW4's Guardian ECM.

All problems solved in one swoop.

[bad arcade kitty]

Stefka Kerensky, on 17 April 2015 - 12:11 AM, said:

1) REWORK ECM. No more teamates coverage, at least.

it's like to remove 60-70% of usefulness of ecm on the light mechs while keeping most of it for heavy and assaults
it's also the best and the most fun part part of ecm to be able to help your team, it should remain
why do you even propose to make the mechanics more plain and boring robbing ecm bearers of their support role and leaving them only scouting, sniping and backstabbing, for what reason?