169 replies to this topic

[InspectorG]

ECM + indirect fire/BAP/ - scouting/support roles(and i pray for the proper objectives in 4v4 CW) need reworked.

Agreed this much.

Problem is:

MWO =/= BT

Likely will be different expressions and mechanics of a similar idea.

[Madcap72]

This thread shows perfectly the disconnect between people who can just play the game maximizing strengths and mitigating weaknesses of systems, and those that can't and demand the game be modified to suit thier personal desires or playstyle.



Since I have no problem killing ECM mechs with my LRM Catapult, you can guess what camp I'm in.

[Mcgral18]

Madcap72, on 18 April 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

This thread shows perfectly the disconnect between people who can just play the game maximizing strengths and mitigating weaknesses of systems, and those that can't and demand the game be modified to suit thier personal desires or playstyle.



Since I have no problem killing ECM mechs with my LRM Catapult, you can guess what camp I'm in.

The Magic Jesus Box is a bad game mechanic.

It combines Stealth Armour, Angel ECM, Guardian ECM and magical properties that stop locks altogether.


It's by no means gECM. It's a bastardisation of multiple technologies without any of the downsides.
Stealth Armour generates 1 heat per second to keep hidden, which essentially turns your DHS into SHS.

That is a good balancing feature. Having it cost **** all is a bad gameplay feature.


All it does is pay weapon taxes TO EVEN USE THE weapon, rather than just stop the upgrades from using the bonuses.
I don't use LRMs, because on top of being Terribad, and completely mitigated by good positioning, they are also hard countered by a 1 ton Jesus Box.

Pay 3 tons, 1 ton, or 1.5 tons to partially counter that Jesus Box, which has a passive 180M bubble, with no ill side effects.

[STEF_]

I think I have to refocus this thread, because above all I wrote it because radar display is always empty.

So, many find ecm weird, above all we are going to have 12 ecm vs 12 ecm.
Many find it good, but once again I ask them: what should radar display serve for?
Atm, and even more in the future, it is useless part of the screen. Unless you find usefull to see where your teamtes are

In any discussion, as Madcap said, everyone demand the game to suit thier personal desire, it is normal.
But how should be "that useless part of the screen", known as radar, for those ones who love ninja style mechwarrior (and who don't care about BT)?

Mcgral18, on 18 April 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

The Magic Jesus Box is a bad game mechanic.

It combines Stealth Armour, Angel ECM, Guardian ECM and magical properties that stop locks altogether.


It's by no means gECM. It's a bastardisation of multiple technologies without any of the downsides.
Stealth Armour generates 1 heat per second to keep hidden, which essentially turns your DHS into SHS.

That is a good balancing feature. Having it cost **** all is a bad gameplay feature.


All it does is pay weapon taxes TO EVEN USE THE weapon, rather than just stop the upgrades from using the bonuses.
I don't use LRMs, because on top of being Terribad, and completely mitigated by good positioning, they are also hard countered by a 1 ton Jesus Box.

Pay 3 tons, 1 ton, or 1.5 tons to partially counter that Jesus Box, which has a passive 180M bubble, with no ill side effects.

This your post is more sacred than the holy magic Jesus box itself!

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 18 April 2015 - 11:30 AM.

[Graugger]

Yes another (nerf ECM) thread because ECM is everywhere even though there are also LRMs Everyfrikkinwhere in which if you don't have some sort of ECM the match is over in 4 minutes on Caustic -.-

Got killed in a bloody match cause we had no ECM and the enemy had
2 Atlas --- (1) DDC & (1) BH
2 Stalkers --- (2x) 5M
4 Catapults --- (3x) A1 & (1) C4
2 Trebuchets --- (2x) 7M
2 Ravens --- (2x) 3L

This match lasted roughly 2:25
-.-

[Madcap72]

Mcgral18, on 18 April 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

The Magic Jesus Box is a bad game mechanic.

It combines Stealth Armour, Angel ECM, Guardian ECM and magical properties that stop locks altogether.


It's by no means gECM. It's a bastardisation of multiple technologies without any of the downsides.
Stealth Armour generates 1 heat per second to keep hidden, which essentially turns your DHS into SHS.

That is a good balancing feature. Having it cost **** all is a bad gameplay feature.


All it does is pay weapon taxes TO EVEN USE THE weapon, rather than just stop the upgrades from using the bonuses.
I don't use LRMs, because on top of being Terribad, and completely mitigated by good positioning, they are also hard countered by a 1 ton Jesus Box.

Pay 3 tons, 1 ton, or 1.5 tons to partially counter that Jesus Box, which has a passive 180M bubble, with no ill side effects.

Yet, we're not playing the tabletop game, or other itinerations of MW, we're playing MWO. In MWO ECM is just plain old ECM much like in real life. It's a signal jamming device, that spoofs electric tracking and targeting. You can compare it to what it is not in other games all you want to, that's fine. But it's jsut a bunch of wasted brain sweat because this is not those games. I guess I don't understand what is so tough about that.

The biggest problem I see is that ECM allows people to utalize tactics better by manouvering under ECM coverage because commonly pugs will only chase after radar contacts, and straight up walk away from LOS visable mechs.

[JaxRiot]

Madcap72, on 17 April 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

Mechwarrior isn't Battletech. It's time to stop trying to tie them together.

Madcap72, on 18 April 2015 - 04:29 PM, said:

Yet, we're not playing the tabletop game, or other itinerations of MW, we're playing MWO.

Really? I only ask because I could have sworn that the title of this game was Mechwarrior Online: A BattleTech Game

[Umbra8]

I'm just going to copy/paste my response to a similar forum post on the same subject from way back in August of 2014:

One of the problems with ECM implementation is its counters put the onus of engagement on the non-ecm mech. What this means is an ECM equipped mech will get it's benefits as soon as the match starts and regardless of the active participation of the user. If someone wants to counter those benefits with TAG, BAP, NARC or even PPC's the onus is on them to first locate and then engage the target. They are the ones that must have superior situational awareness and it's they who are taking the risk when attempting to suppress the tactical advantages ECM provides (BAP can be particularly difficult for this given it's low operational radius).

More to the point with the exception of PPC's there are only minor supplemental benefits to this risk aside from negating ECM bonuses. So for a very low weight and crit allotment your team will gain significant tactical advantage (I find the radar stealth much more dangerous than the LRM negation) where the counters to that advantage require exposure by the enemy (TAG, NARC, PPC) or close range engagement (BAP). In this way the ECM heavy team can partially define conflicts on their terms with little to no risk or investment aside from earning the ECM mech and buying the equipment. These advantages are further exacerbated with ECM layering which can make a risky opposition play to suppress enemy ECM even more likely to fail.

Lastly, ECM gains you significant advantage regardless of enemy loadout. Counters to ECM require you to allocate crits or weight allotment that may not be an efficient expenditure if your opponent doesn't field ECM. Bringing ECM if you can is a no-brainer. The decision to equip counters isn't quite as straightforward.

tl;dr: If ECM's going to be as good as it is, it should demand greater risk/tradeoffs/participation from the user.

[Strum Wealh]

LordBraxton, on 17 April 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

In the rules, allies can't assist with targeting until you have a C3 system...

Again, that's not true.

Case in point:
The LRM Indirect Fire Rules (Total Warfare, pg. 111) allow a 'Mech to spot for other 'Mechs without adding a C3 unit for another. In fact, C3 explicitly & by rule does nothing for this task; " C3-equipped units spotting targets for or launching an LRM indirect fire attack use the LRM Indirect Fire rules, and gain no benefit from a C3 network" (Total Warfare, pg. 131).

The spotter's targeting data is shared with the attacking unit via the data sharing system, and there is no need for either 'Mech to mount C3 equipment in order to make use of the ability.

Likewise, any opposing unit spotted by one unit mate's sensors under the Double Blind rules (Tactical Operations, pg. 220) is revealed to all other friendly units as well (thus, allowing those other friendly units to target the opposing unit(s)); this happens regardless of the presence (or absence) of C3 equipment.

The absence of C3 does not mean that friendly units cannot share sensor information; it means that there would be no attack "to-hit vs distance" bonus (e.g. it is not vastly easier to aim/hit from a significant distance) with direct-fire weapons.

The basic info-sharing system is what MWO has; it is not "free C3".

[Mystere]

Madcap72, on 18 April 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

Since I have no problem killing ECM mechs with my LRM Catapult, you can guess what camp I'm in.

It has come to my attention that a whole lot of players are incapable of shooting anything that does not have a Red Dorito on it.

[Mystere]

JaxRiot, on 18 April 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:

Really? I only ask because I could have sworn that the title of this game was Mechwarrior Online: A BattleTech Game

A BattleTech Game could mean one of the following:

• Used BT stats and mechanics
  
• Inspired by BT stats and mechanics
  
• Inspired by BT
  
• Just using the BT name

[Khobai]

Quote

IMO, you should have to shoot mechs with your eyes, not by having magic red doritos pop up over their heads saying "THERE'S A MECH HERE SHOOT IT!"

um theres nothing "magic" about red doritos. its called radar. and it detects things beyond visual range using radio waves.

do you even realize how ******** you sound

"derp dee derrrpp we should be able to see farther than radar detects"

Quote

It has come to my attention that a whole lot of players are incapable of shooting anything that does not have a Red Dorito on it.

Thats a strawman argument. Its entirely irrelevant to the discussion. Nobody said they dont want stealth in the game. They just said they want the benefits of stealth to be proportional to the cost.

Im all for adding MORE stealth equipment to the game. Passive sensors. Null Signature System. Stealth Armor. Bring it on. As long as it costs what its worth I have no problem with it.

The reality is ECM is way too good for 1.5 tons. Even PGI has acknowledged its way too good. So dont try to argue its fine when the developers themselves have admitted its not. It just makes you look like a fool.

Edited by Khobai, 18 April 2015 - 06:25 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Mystere, on 18 April 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

It has come to my attention that a whole lot of players are incapable of shooting anything that does not have a Red Dorito on it.

Oh, other weapons can. LRMs cannot.

Hardcountered by the Magic Jesus Box.



Hence why a whole family of weapons is ignored by the majority of the community (while the other half apparently cries OP).

[Lightfoot]

BAP counters ECM at 600-800 meters unless the ECM mech has Passive Sensors. The ECM blanket only works for mechs with Passive Sensors. That would mix things up anyway, but PGI is holding on to the current ECM until it is omnipresent in teams, but at some point they have to go to Guardian ECM and Angel ECM variations and BAP does what it should be doing.

[Khobai]

Quote

BAP counters ECM at 600-800 meters unless the ECM mech has Passive Sensors. The ECM blanket only works for mechs with Passive Sensors. That would mix things up anyway, but PGI is holding on to the current ECM until it is omnipresent in teams, but at some point they have to go to Guardian ECM and Angel ECM variations and BAP does what it should be doing.

That might be going overboard.

I think the only change ECM needs is to only stealth the mech its directly equipped on. Thats still amazingly good for 1.5 tons. But its not completely overpowered like it is now.

[STEF_]

Graugger, on 18 April 2015 - 11:45 AM, said:

Yes another (nerf ECM) thread because ECM is everywhere even though there are also LRMs Everyfrikkinwhere in which if you don't have some sort of ECM the match is over in 4 minutes on Caustic -.-

Wait, how can you say this thread ask to nerf ecm, when I repeat, again, is about RADAR DISPLAY?
Moreover, my second option say: 2) do not touch/nerf ecm, but only limit the number of ecm mech per team.

Aaaaaaaa...wait, wait... you have problem with lrm and don't know how to handle them... ok, gotcha

[STEF_]

Mystere, on 18 April 2015 - 05:30 PM, said:

A BattleTech Game could mean one of the following:

• Used BT stats and mechanics
  
• Inspired by BT stats and mechanics
  
• Inspired by BT
  
• Just using the BT name

I'm sorry, but if I give my bunny the name of catapult, my petty becomes a battletech petty?
Nice, we only need a name. Battletech pizza, then.

Guy nice try, but.. try harder.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 18 April 2015 - 09:59 PM.

[STEF_]

It amaze me that the "I want ecm everywhere" guys, still didn't tell and suggest what to do with the lower part of the screen, known as RADAR DISPLAY, as it will become totally useless in a few months.

COME ON, ECM addicts. Tell us, please.

And, a "news" for ya: there is a game named Hawken!!!! and it's a robotto game!
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand IT IS A FPS, TOO!!!
I think that ecm addicts should like it very much!!!!
Why doesn't all of you give it a try? why not?
give it, many many try.... please

[Mystere]

Stefka Kerensky, on 18 April 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

I'm sorry, but if I give my bunny the name of catapult, my petty becomes a battletech petty?
Nice, we only need a name. Battletech pizza, then.

Guy nice try, but.. try harder.

Was the 2000 Dungeons & Dragons movie really a Dungeons & Dragons movie?

[Nick Makiaveli]

Stefka Kerensky, on 17 April 2015 - 12:21 AM, said:

We need to start a campaign "a la Urbie".

I cannot say if pgi listens to the community only if they can see a possibility to make money.
But we should give a try, at least.

And why should they do anything else? Out of the goodness of their hearts? Great idea. Just give away all the cockpit items, mechbays etc for free!!! Just let people donate as they see fit!!! Will work great!!!


So tell me something...why isn't that standard practice? If it's such a wonderful system, why don't you go out and start a game on kickstarter with that business model? Surely people would just toss millions at you, after its what you want, and that should be enough for anyone!!!