26 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Reference Article:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4190400


I wrote an article a while ago... that essentially expressed that "all hardpoints are not made equal". I'm sure I had mentioned the Vindicator (1X) in all of this (which may have an article someday in the future), but I believe I had mentioned the Atlas-K as a reference.

Back in Open Beta, the Atlas-K was a constant reminder of how the hardpoint system screwed over a mech. Yes, it had dual AMS... which is somewhat of a novelty item previously (LRMs weren't as fast and easier to avoid) but there is a niche role for them that is effective in a team environment.

However, the "punishment" or penalty for that is disproportional to what dual AMS brought to the table. One of the dual AMS released early in MWO's lifetime... the Stalker-5S provided the same role, w/o sacrificing much (well, a greater torso twist is a benefit of the 3F, but not an overwhelming factor in the currently quirked 4N).

So, why are we leaving the Atlas-K to suffer?


I have 3 simple points that should cover the reasons for it and that it won't break anything (and so I have enough time to write a Dire Wolf documentary - part 1 soon today, hopefully)...


1) It's a bad precedence to have one less hardpoint because of dual AMS (or more jumpjets and certain other variations for that matter). For a top tier player... there's only a few reasons to carry AMS, if at all. At the lower levels of play... there appears to be a "demand", until one replaces one "crutch" (not sure of a better word) for another (replacing AMS with Radar Deprivation is pretty important step for some). AMS is situationally useful and as such doesn't get much attention... despite AMS modules (overload and range). Dual AMS is not exactly a reason why most pick a particular mech over a dual AMS. Even when we had the Thunderbolt-9S ERPPC meta (7.5 heat ERPPCs are crazy), dual AMS was not a thing... as DHS was significantly more important at that period of time.


2) If you're trying to sell the most expensive Atlas, it shouldn't just stink compared to the "more affordable" versions.

In theory, if you have the most expensive variant - there is an idea that it "might" be the most useful variant... like in the case of the Raven-3L. However, there are usually benefits if it isn't the best. For instance, buying the most expensive 55-tonners with a 275XL engine is pretty useful and reusable if you're trying to be cost-conscious when trying to master a mech.

For the Atlas-K's case... not only are you getting a 300XL (which is heralded as useful for various mechs, but for the purposes of an Atlas, it's a death trap), you are getting the least "bang for your buck".

Even with the quirks (which are meddling at best), Atlases are generally better at brawling and low mounted hardpoints accentuate this. When the quirks were for PPCs+Gauss, that was a hilarious/terrible joke played on the playerbase.

Inevitably, the current design or current set of hardpoints does not lend to demand of this variant.


3) Adding a missile hardpoint DOES NOT suddenly make this mech superior to the rest... it suddenly gets a usable niche and worth recommending to other people to a degree.

The missile hardpoint is actually not hard to add. The dynamic visual hardpoints (aka "legomech") allow for adding that missile hardpoint into the mech. It's honestly not hard to do.

However, if you're actually concerned about the balance aspect... let's take a look at its "competitors".

The Atlas-D has double dakka hardpoints... which is pretty much unique of itself... especially if you want to run dual AC5s/UAC5s/LBX10s or some wicked combination that makes sense.

The Atlas-D-DC has ECM... while it loses the CT energy hardpoints. ECM is enough to get itself the most praise from teammates.

The Atlas-S has the most missile missile hardpoints... allowing for good splatting damage through SRMs (especially with Artemis).

The Boar's Head (Atlas-BH) is unique enough with all the energy hardpoints... although pretty inferior to dedicated energy boats... but it is what it is.

The Atlas-RS is probably the most comparable of the bunch. While it loses the CT energy hardpoints, it makes the arms more important... similar to the Boar's Head. The difference however is that the Atlas-K by definition would be comparable to the number of hardpoints... and the minute difference between the placement is important.

It's not possible to run 4 Large Lasers on a Atlas-K.. but you certainly can do that on the Atlas-RS (whether it is good or not is kinda up for debate, but long range Atlases are usually not that great either). That limitation by design should be enough of a justification for the Atlas-K to receive the extra missile hardpoint. Trading firepower for more "defense" (through AMS) isn't a bad tradeoff.

The thing is that solo missile hardpoints on a mech is usually unproductive... even if you can put an LRM20/SRM6 on it. It never works as effectively as it could on a per-mech basis (the Vindicator knows this well). There's plenty of mechs that "suffer" from this (including the Boar's Head), but inevitably the value of an Atlas is with brawling with SRM6s (with Artemis) and to deny that on a mech that has sole "bonus" is to get dual AMS? That's just silly reasoning.


So, please join me on wishing the Atlas-K some love by asking for that 2nd missile point to be added. While the Atlas quirks need some reworking (like, this arm buffing thing is useless for the variants that are not the RS or the Boar's Head), the missing missile hardpoint should bridge the gap between the Atlas-K and the rest of the Atlas family.

For TL;DR:

There is plenty of reason to mock the Atlas-K since the role of dual AMS is situational... but to leave this variant in a perpetual state of uselessness and being most expensive is not the way to properly balance the variant.

Also, when are the Atlas-S's (and Centurion-AH) going to be on sale for C-bills? Why is PGI depriving people the opportunity to rock in an Atlas-S (for C-bills)? Is there some sort of NGNG/Illuminati/PGI thing that I'm not aware of?


Let's not give the new player the mistake that the Atlas-K can't compete with the rest of it's brothers. Give it the tools and let it be useful. Don't let the other dual (or triple) AMS mechs stay more useful.

[Armorine]

I hate to be the one to say this but not all mechs are gonna be greatly viable. The atlas is an oooollllld design. Absolutely ancient. It's a solid design but it's gonna fall prey to newer designs.

[Zordicron]

Atlas K has been the subject of "PGI, Y U NO FIX" threads since the beginning. It has been stated reworking hardpoints is a tricky bit, because the art team has to accomodate it etc.


IMO, PGI guys should pin a meeting for 4th quarter project to do a full review of ALL the mechs.

1) Review mobility. Take all mechs, from 20 to 100 tons, and smooth out the curve for mobility/speed/agility. Right now, some mechs are accrobatic while another mech 5 tons the lighter is a sluggish that moves like a car with a flat tire. The game has changed, newer mechs have been adjusted older ones need it. Engine caps, twist rates, etc.

2.) Review Hitbox. IMO, most of the really old mechs in the game are just plain ol fragile compared to newer ones. PGI has leanred a thing or two about how to construct them. look at our Urbies. Look at dat Enforcer. They have figured out, basically, how to construct hitbox that dont end up in instagank, mostly. IMO, having mechs with not so logical hitboxes for arms and legs to create some damage spread is perfectly acceptable as a way to fix some of the under performers.

3) Review hardpoints. As OP has stated, some older mechs were "adjusted" and have sorta been left behind. Atlas K is one, but there are several others. It should be obvious by now how important locations of harpoints can be, and so this "new" criteria should be weighed against hardpoint count per chassis.

4) After all these things are done, and all the mechs have been "standardized" so to speak(maybe normalized would be a better word): Textures. At least run them to 2k for baseline. many want to see 4K with adjustability for performance in the options instead so high end rigs can make MWO look pretty.


At this point, all mechs would be performance wise smoothed out, and look great. newer mechs are already being released fairly good so far as hitbox/agility etc is concerned, and there will always be some outliers for lore reasons and variety(like Gargamel). I think these things are important for Steam release, so the game flows logically from 20 tons to 100 and players arent caught "surprise! this 100 ton assault is inferior in almost every way to this 85 ton one for random reasons!!"




As for immediate changes to an Atlas K: hardpoints take artwork, quirks are code entry. Give the K some interesting quirks, like +25% speed and maybe some durability quirks. Now it can survive with that gauss longer, and move to correct fighting range with it more easily. Sure it can;t brawl as effectively, but it has mobility and longevity to make up for it. I think until a full on review of all mechs can be done, some outside the box things could be put in pretty easy.

[Mcgral18]

Armorine, on 16 April 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

I hate to be the one to say this but not all mechs are gonna be greatly viable. The atlas is an oooollllld design. Absolutely ancient. It's a solid design but it's gonna fall prey to newer designs.

The Banshee is 300 years older than it, yet better in nearly every sense in MWO (aside from Missiles and the Jesus Box).

Edited by Mcgral18, 16 April 2015 - 03:18 PM.

[Ragtag soldier]

stacking missiles on an atlas makes you part of the problem, that fat ******* isn't meant to be pissing missiles downrange and hiding, it's meant to spearhead a push guns a-blazin' while it's teammates stream out from behind it and blitz the opponent.

[Mcgral18]

Ragtag soldier, on 16 April 2015 - 04:33 PM, said:

stacking missiles on an atlas makes you part of the problem, that fat ******* isn't meant to be pissing missiles downrange and hiding, it's meant to spearhead a push guns a-blazin' while it's teammates stream out from behind it and blitz the opponent.

You are aware of SRMs?

[Simbacca]

I would rather give the Atlas-K some additional or unique quirks - which removes the issue of needed to remodel said mech, while at the same time giving mech a different, but still useful play style.

Quirks
=Double Capable AMS. <-Meaning 1 AMS can shoot down 10 to 11 LRMs, while 2 AMS can shoot down 20 to 22 LRMs.
=5% Speed Bonus <-Just like what the Summoner.
=25% Sensor Range Bonus <-After all the mech was originally designed for long range combat.
=25% Target Information Bonus

[luxebo]

@Deathlike

Wrote to Russ about AS7-S and CN9-AH not with c-bills. He didn't even realize it himself. However he did say he is going to talk to the staff or whatever and maybe they will release on c-bills soon.

[Alistair Winter]

When the Atlas finally gets the structure and/or armour quirks it deserves, a pair of hyperquirked AMS would hopefully contribute to its role as the toughest, most durable mech in the game.

I'd like to see the AS7-K just laugh at incoming fire, leading the charge every time.

[Molossian Dog]

Alistair Winter, on 16 April 2015 - 04:42 PM, said:

...
I'd like to see the AS7-K just laugh at incoming fire, leading the charge every time.

Just as the Awesome should.

[Alistair Winter]

Molossian Dog, on 16 April 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

Just as the Awesome should.

"Chaaaaaaarg- ooops, hang on, not so close, please. Please stay out of my minimum range, thank you. Ok, chaaaaarge!"

Yeah, I don't know if I would ever charge much with the AWS-8Q. But it would be cool to just stare people down and beat other <80 ton mechs at 400 meters, the same way laservomit Thunderbolts are staring people down and beating any mech their size or smaller at 300 meters. And the same with MPL Banshees. It would be nice if a mech that looks like a walking fortress didn't have to be played like a glass cannon.

[Xetelian]

Don't forget the Boar's Head is also sporting only 1 missile port.

[Deathlike]

luxebo, on 16 April 2015 - 04:42 PM, said:

@Deathlike

Wrote to Russ about AS7-S and CN9-AH not with c-bills. He didn't even realize it himself. However he did say he is going to talk to the staff or whatever and maybe they will release on c-bills soon.

It better be available on patch day or... GET THE EFF OFF THE ISLAND!

Alistair Winter, on 16 April 2015 - 04:42 PM, said:

When the Atlas finally gets the structure and/or armour quirks it deserves, a pair of hyperquirked AMS would hopefully contribute to its role as the toughest, most durable mech in the game.

I'd like to see the AS7-K just laugh at incoming fire, leading the charge every time.

Good luck with that. I doubt we'll see that in 60 to 90 days.

[Deathlike]

Xetelian, on 16 April 2015 - 04:58 PM, said:

Don't forget the Boar's Head is also sporting only 1 missile port.

TBH, that variant doesn't need another missile hardpoint... as it should be dedicating resources to the ballistic and all the DHS it needs to cool off.

What the Boar's Head really needs is asymmetrical reforced side torsos (more armor on the ballistic side than the missile side, due to hardpoint usefulness) and reinforced arm armor (so you can shield while carrying the bulk of the weapons

It might actually need a torso twist speed increase as well (especially with the lowered torso twist radius) or some sort of buff that allows the improvement of the variant's shooting radius... (the RS would need something similar as well, due to the limited torso twist pitch of the Atlas).

Edited by Deathlike, 16 April 2015 - 05:17 PM.

[Molossian Dog]

@Alistair

In retrospect I should have cut down the quote to this.

Alistair Winter, on 16 April 2015 - 04:42 PM, said:

I'd like to see the AS7-K just laugh at incoming fire

[LordBraxton]

Armorine, on 16 April 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

I hate to be the one to say this but not all mechs are gonna be greatly viable. The atlas is an oooollllld design. Absolutely ancient. It's a solid design but it's gonna fall prey to newer designs.

"embrace the power creep."

[Khobai]

Atlas-K should get an extra ballistic hardpoint not an extra missile hardpoint.

The Atlas-RS already has 1 ballistic and 2 missile.

So the Atlas-K should have 2 ballistic and 1 missile.

Edited by Khobai, 16 April 2015 - 06:10 PM.

[Deathlike]

Khobai, on 16 April 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

Atlas-K should get an extra ballistic hardpoint not an extra missile hardpoint.

The Atlas-RS already has 1 ballistic and 2 missile.

So the Atlas-K should have 2 ballistic and 1 missile.

I had thought about that, but that's a bad idea.

The problem is that it makes the K extraordinarily vulnerable.

Since people are trained to shoot the Atlas's right torso, it only accelerates the mech's downfall.

The whole point of the missile torso side is to have a certain "backup plan" when the Right ballistic torso falls (and it often does in the course of combat).

The D-DC's power is having almost equal though non-symmetrical firepower on both torsos... if one side goes down, the other side can still be effective during a brawl. The Boar's Head can't really build such firepower due to being energy dependent... giving up the missile side is a waste when you need more direct firepower from the right side (and giving it a missile hardpoint bump changes the dynamic - but then leaves it as a questionable superior-RS clone).

The Atlas-D Atlas-RS (bleh in my haste) does have the same hardpoint numbers, but not the LOCATIONS.

2E in the CT is not the same as moving those hardpoints onto the arms (more firepower options).. so ultimately the Atlas-RS will always be STRONGER than the Atlas-K with the added missile hardpoint. The Atlas-K should be more defensive through AMS (and quirks).

Doubling down on the dakka side only serves the make the K a far more vulnerable target than it already is. The RS has a serviceable missile torso... and the K would benefit from that as long as the missile hardpoint is added.

Edited by Deathlike, 16 April 2015 - 06:53 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

The problem is that it makes the K extraordinarily vulnerable.

The K is supposed to be a sniper mech though remember. missiles dont make a whole lot of sense on a sniper.

Plus it doesnt get missile quirks. It gets ballistic and energy quirks. So a second ballistic slot makes more sense.

What if the second ballistic slot was in the left torso? That would make it unique because it would be the only Atlas that could use dual gauss. I hardly think that would be overpowered either because the King Crab can already do that.

Edited by Khobai, 16 April 2015 - 07:15 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I've been thinking about these Atlas too. I figured that raising total Hardpoints to 10 each, and allowing each variant able to zombie with Torso Energy and then boosting quirks was the way to go. Just gonna share ideas for Hard points:

So the BH gets Tube count boosted to 15 and one CT Energy

The D gets one Ballistic added

D-DC gets either 2 CT Energy and goes down to 1 Ballistic, (or gets one CT Energy and keeps 2 Ballistic)

K gets Tube count raised to 20, 1 Ballistic and one AMS (Plus quirks to Missile Spread)

RS gets two CT Energy

S has no change