62 replies to this topic

[Corrado]

Tahribator, on 17 April 2015 - 12:16 PM, said:

AKA "It has to be good at the beginning so that it will sell". I'd rather have dangerous stuff like these overnerfed at the start and then buffed "iteratively" rather than it dominating right from the beginning.

i'm not a sales manager but jeez... even rocks knows marketing basics...

[MrZakalwe]

Kain Thul, on 17 April 2015 - 11:18 AM, said:

Yep, they can go ahead kill their sales all they want.

Red text = do not use in my book.

The negative quirks on the TBR LT will need to be big to make it not a forgone conclusion on any laser build.

The mere presence of red text will not even be close to enough.

[Yosharian]

Tennex, on 17 April 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

I'm confused... where are these omnipods? I'm looking at the new variants now in smurfys mechlab and I can't see them.

[Deathlike]

Yosharian, on 18 April 2015 - 05:34 AM, said:

I'm confused... where are these omnipods? I'm looking at the new variants now in smurfys mechlab and I can't see them.

It's in the (object) data, but not actually put together quite yet in the XML (it's somewhat of a trivial change though).

[XX Sulla XX]

Remember they are wanting to sell these mechs. They have a very very fine line between not selling any and them being to over powerd. Honestly withought fixing the TW and SC before the release I think they will be almost impossible to balance these pods correctly.

[Kain Demos]

Well the negative quirks on those two omnipods are pretty strong.

Strong enough to where I am no longer buying them.

[FupDup]

Kain Thul, on 20 April 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

Well the negative quirks on those two omnipods are pretty strong.

Strong enough to where I am no longer buying them.

The Mad Cat's one look survivable as long as you don't use ERLL up there (because their duration is already pretty long).

The Doomcrow one however is iffy, because more energy heat isn't exactly fun for a mech that relies primarily on energy weapons...


Ultimately, if these mechs were better balanced to begin with, perhaps the values could have been a bit lower on these pods.

[Ultimax]

Kain Thul, on 20 April 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

Well the negative quirks on those two omnipods are pretty strong.

Have the values been posted?

Edited by Ultimatum X, 20 April 2015 - 12:54 PM.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 20 April 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

Have the values been posted?

http://mwomercs.com/reinforcementstwo

Doomcrow 6 energy arm:
-10% Energy cooldown
+10% Laser duration
+7.5% Energy heat

Mad Cat 3 energy torso:
-5% Acceleration rate
-5% Deceleration rate
-10% Reverse speed
-10% Energy cooldown
+10% Laser duration

Edited by FupDup, 20 April 2015 - 12:59 PM.

[Kain Demos]

The TBR-D arm pods are just straight up better than the TBR-A ones as well.

[Gas Guzzler]

FupDup, on 20 April 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/reinforcementstwo

Doomcrow 6 energy arm:
-10% Energy cooldown
+10% Laser duration
+7.5% Energy heat

Mad Cat 3 energy torso:
-5% Acceleration rate
-5% Deceleration rate
-10% Reverse speed
-10% Energy cooldown
+10% Laser duration

I think that is a pretty reasonable job... we will see how it goes.

Clanners should be glad they didn't have a heat penalty on the Timber.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 20 April 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/reinforcementstwo

Doomcrow 6 energy arm:
-10% Energy cooldown
+10% Laser duration
+7.5% Energy heat

Well that's certainly enough to give me pause, and more importantly keeps the Nova in the game.


We'll see if it makes that arm too unappealing to use at all, since it negatively affects all of your weapons.

At a cursory glance like this I think, that the +10% laser duration is too much and should be removed - the other two look OK though.

FupDup, on 20 April 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

Mad Cat 3 energy torso:
-5% Acceleration rate
-5% Deceleration rate
-10% Reverse speed
-10% Energy cooldown
+10% Laser duration

This looks good, I'd still use this for a sniper build but would not touch it for short or even mid-ranged builds probably - which is a good balance point so that you don't end up with a "One true build god-of-gods pod"

Edited by Ultimatum X, 20 April 2015 - 01:07 PM.

[Molossian Dog]

Let us totally forget that the Timberderp has now high mounted non-missile hardpoints.
Because we cannot have the Inner Sphere having one advantage the clammerz don´t have.

Let us instead concentrate on marginal negative quirks so noone notices the buff.


Oh wait. Cauldron-Born inc. Hankyu inc.
Forget what I said. Why even bother?

ggclose powercreep

Edited by Molossian Dog, 20 April 2015 - 02:29 PM.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 20 April 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

Ultimately, if these mechs were better balanced to begin with, perhaps the values could have been a bit lower on these pods.

How would they have been better balanced to begin with, outside of quirks exactly like this?


I'm all for toning down crazy sauce options like uber-mounted lasers for the Timber Wolf, but on the other hand I don't personally see the need to nerf mechs that are simply "born awesome" - meaning they just happened to have the right collection of positive attributes to make them great.


I never agreed with "出る杭は打たれる" when I lived in Japan either.



出る杭は打たれる。

• Deru kui wa utareru.
  
• Literally: The stake that sticks up gets hammered down.
  
• Meaning: If you stand out, you will be subject to criticism. (i.e. it promotes conforming with the mass as opposed to voicing your opinion, or standing out and being demonstrably better than your peers in some situations)

Edited by Ultimatum X, 20 April 2015 - 02:34 PM.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 20 April 2015 - 02:32 PM, said:

How would they have been better balanced to begin with, outside of quirks exactly like this?

I'm all for toning down crazy sauce options like uber-mounted lasers for the Timber Wolf, but on the other hand I don't personally see the need to nerf mechs that are simply "born awesome" - meaning they just happened to have the right collection of positive attributes to make them great.

The Crow is easy to figure out because it already comes with positive quirks. For starters, it really doesn't need +15% twist speed on its CT. Yank that out. Also, 130 degree twist like the Griffin and Wolvie have is a bit much considering the tech/speed/hitbox/etc. advantages. It should probably be 90-110 degrees by default (Shadow Hawk is just 90, for reference).

The Mad Cat is harder to figure out, because it doesn't have any specific qualities that strike out at me. People say "but agility bro!" but I think people exaggerate those claims (people who say the Mad Cat is as agile as a medium don't play mediums, or at least not non-slow mediums). It just gets a relatively even blend of the "Power Triangle" attributes.



Somewhat unrelated but kinda related anyways:

For Mad Cat, I think we might have to hunker down and start tackling issues with Clan tech itself first, and then see how the mech performs with a few things brought into line. What pushes both mechs over the top is that their base configs are well designed in addition to Clan tech just being so great by itself. Some small nerfs to various Clan items would help gauge where these mechs would be without such a big tech advantage pushing them up.

Yes, this would also hurt the non-dominant chassis, but the sheer power of Clan tech is probably the biggest reason PGI is so hesitant to buff the sub-par ones in the first place. Right now, I'm assuming PGI views the sub-par Clan mechs as "superior tech mounted on inferior platforms." Their poorly optimized base configs are used to justify the current power of many Clan items like the CERML etc. With the tech in a more balanced state, we'd have a much easier time justifying improvements to the sub-par ones, because we wouldn't have crazy tech to overcompensate for suboptimal base configs.

We also could finally get Clan Battlemechs without restricting them to be built like Omnimechs but without swappable hardpoints, because otherwise the current IS customization + current Clan tech would be craaaaazytown.

Edited by FupDup, 20 April 2015 - 02:50 PM.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 20 April 2015 - 02:48 PM, said:

The Crow is easy to figure out because it already comes with positive quirks. For starters, it really doesn't need +15% twist speed on its CT. Yank that out. Also, 130 degree twist like the Griffin and Wolvie have is a bit much considering the tech/speed/hitbox/etc. advantages. It should probably be 90-110 degrees by default (Shadow Hawk is just 90, for reference).

The Mad Cat is harder to figure out, because it doesn't have any specific qualities that strike out at me. People say "but agility bro!" but I think people exaggerate those claims (people who say the Mad Cat is as agile as a medium don't play mediums, or at least not non-slow mediums). It just gets a relatively even blend of the "Power Triangle" attributes.



Somewhat unrelated but kinda related anyways:

For Mad Cat, I think we might have to hunker down and start tackling issues with Clan tech itself first, and then see how the mech performs with a few things brought into line. What pushes both mechs over the top is that their base configs are well designed in addition to Clan tech just being so great by itself. Some small nerfs to various Clan items would help gauge where these mechs would be without such a big tech advantage pushing them up.

Yes, this would also hurt the non-dominant chassis, but the sheer power of Clan tech is probably the biggest reason PGI is so hesitant to buff the sub-par ones in the first place. Right now, I'm assuming PGI views the sub-par Clan mechs as "superior tech mounted on inferior platforms." Their poorly optimized base configs are used to justify the current power of many Clan items like the CERML etc. With the tech in a more balanced state, we'd have a much easier time justifying improvements to the sub-par ones, because we wouldn't have crazy tech to overcompensate for suboptimal base configs.

We also could finally get Clan Battlemechs without restricting them to be built like Omnimechs but without swappable hardpoints, because otherwise the current IS customization + current Clan tech would be craaaaazytown.

Could you stop making sense please?

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 20 April 2015 - 02:52 PM, said:

Could you stop making sense please?

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 20 April 2015 - 02:48 PM, said:

The Crow is easy to figure out because it already comes with positive quirks. For starters, it really doesn't need +15% twist speed on its CT. Yank that out. Also, 130 degree twist like the Griffin and Wolvie have is a bit much considering the tech/speed/hitbox/etc. advantages. It should probably be 90-110 degrees by default (Shadow Hawk is just 90, for reference).

The Mad Cat is harder to figure out, because it doesn't have any specific qualities that strike out at me. People say "but agility bro!" but I think people exaggerate those claims (people who say the Mad Cat is as agile as a medium don't play mediums, or at least not non-slow mediums). It just gets a relatively even blend of the "Power Triangle" attributes.



Somewhat unrelated but kinda related anyways:

For Mad Cat, I think we might have to hunker down and start tackling issues with Clan tech itself first, and then see how the mech performs with a few things brought into line. What pushes both mechs over the top is that their base configs are well designed in addition to Clan tech just being so great by itself. Some small nerfs to various Clan items would help gauge where these mechs would be without such a big tech advantage pushing them up.

Yes, this would also hurt the non-dominant chassis, but the sheer power of Clan tech is probably the biggest reason PGI is so hesitant to buff the sub-par ones in the first place. Right now, I'm assuming PGI views the sub-par Clan mechs as "superior tech mounted on inferior platforms." Their poorly optimized base configs are used to justify the current power of many Clan items like the CERML etc. With the tech in a more balanced state, we'd have a much easier time justifying improvements to the sub-par ones, because we wouldn't have crazy tech to overcompensate for suboptimal base configs.

We also could finally get Clan Battlemechs without restricting them to be built like Omnimechs but without swappable hardpoints, because otherwise the current IS customization + current Clan tech would be craaaaazytown.

Here's an idea: Override the 60% damage reduction on God Tier robots. 30% seems like a nice place to start.

With their hitboxes, they make good use of it.


With that removed, they still retain their firepower advantage...but they become Glass Cannons, of sorts.

Add that to reduced Torso Yaw, and they become significantly more fragile.

[Lightfoot]

I think PGI is over-doing it at this point. Drop in a Inner Sphere vs Clan match in CW and they all bring the quirked I.S. mechs and the Inner Sphere FotM's are much more powerful than the Clan mechs.

It's mostly the short beam durations and lower heat energy and the single-slug projectiles. Add it all up and PGI has overdone the nerf-buff quirk thing. It doesn't show up in the PUGs because the factions are split across both teams. PGI is staring into that old abyss now.

[Xetelian]

Negative quirks like the 7.5% for each DWF prime arm is ridiculous.


More positive quirks and more potent than 10% and 5% and we'll see mechs climb out of the swamp that is filled with every mech that isn't a SCR or TBR.