74 replies to this topic

[Soulstrom]

Mystere, on 19 April 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

As for the light "trolls", if they happen often enough, my expectation is that players will get smart enough to realize that they would need to bring light killers. Of course, current experience with light rushes indicate that many players will still just quickly run to the forums and loudly cry like children who dropped their ice cream. PGI should really learn to ignore such people.

Do we really want CW to break down to just units bringing lights for the rushes and then the opposition bringing light killers to counteract this? Additionally, if everyone starts bringing light killers into matches then the game becomes battles between light killers. This would be because you have no idea what the opposing team is going to drop, so the safe bet would be to always bring light killers in your drop deck.

[pbiggz]

Soulstrom, on 22 April 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

Do we really want CW to break down to just units bringing lights for the rushes and then the opposition bringing light killers to counteract this? Additionally, if everyone starts bringing light killers into matches then the game becomes battles between light killers. This would be because you have no idea what the opposing team is going to drop, so the safe bet would be to always bring light killers in your drop deck.

Light killers are anything with streak srm 6s or lasers. Incidentally, those mechs are are also excellent MECH killers.

This is a question of discipline. Do you see lights? do you have streaks? no problem! Lock on and fire! (you should have an active probe at least).
Do you see lights? do you have any other weapon in the game (flamers and lrms excluded)? No Problem! Point at their spindly legs and teach those davion scum that light rushing is a dead tactic.

[Almond Brown]

slide, on 18 April 2015 - 11:53 PM, said:

Not that I play them or even own them, and would be quite happy to see less of them but.

This would, as we currently stand, nerf clan players. The mechs you see most are, Timberwolves, Hellbringers, and Stormcrows. Heavies and a Medium. Forcing clan players to bring sub-optimal mechs in the light and Assault range would tip the field more in favor of the IS. The fairly standard drop deck of TW,SC,SC,SC with a HB thrown in somewhere would be a thing of the past. Whilst Direwolves are potentially dangerous they get focused fast and I have yet to see one have the same impact on game as a TW does.

Limiting to 1,1,1,1 still doesn't stop light rushes anyway, you would have to limit each wave to 3,3,3,3 like the public queue and then you will get arguments (at least in pugs, units could cope) over who gets to drop in what for each wave. Too Hard IMO.

You make it sound as if the I.S. won't have the same restriction applied to them. So no more TDR/TDR/TDR/Light or Med filler. Best to promote variety, even if it seems forced than stagnate with the current bs status quo. If the Clans suffer, Quirk up the weak links.

Edited by Almond Brown, 22 April 2015 - 09:34 AM.

[Soulstrom]

I agree. But do we want CW to go that way? If all we are doing is just using SSRM's, SRM's, and lasers then that does not add any variety to the game. I particularly like my ballistic weapons, but if all we are seeing is this light rush tactic about, then all we will see is missile and laser boats and that becomes boring really quickly.

[pbiggz]

Soulstrom, on 22 April 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

I agree. But do we want CW to go that way? If all we are doing is just using SSRM's, SRM's, and lasers then that does not add any variety to the game. I particularly like my ballistic weapons, but if all we are seeing is this light rush tactic about, then all we will see is missile and laser boats and that becomes boring really quickly.

All the weapons you mentioned can kill lights. Just practice aiming for their legs and leading targets.

[Soulstrom]

pbiggz, on 22 April 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

All the weapons you mentioned can kill lights. Just practice aiming for their legs and leading targets.

Ah, well good thing I have that part down.

I meant was do we want CW to just be a laser/missile fest? The answer is most likely no, variety is the spice of life.

Edited by Soulstrom, 22 April 2015 - 09:46 AM.

[pbiggz]

Soulstrom, on 22 April 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

Ah, well good thing I have that part down.

I meant was do we want CW to just be a laser/missile fest? The answer is most likely no, variety is the spice of life.

absolutely, so forcing people to take 1/1/1/1 to kill a single strategy that literally only works against davion/marik pugs is NOT the way to go. Thats artificial variety. People wont take a wide array of mechs because they're effective they'll take them because they're not allowed to drop otherwise. Very quickly you'll see the most optimized IS and clan drops and nothing else. There's no room to experiment, no room to specialize.

Edited by pbiggz, 22 April 2015 - 09:58 AM.

[Mystere]

Soulstrom, on 22 April 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

Do we really want CW to break down to just units bringing lights for the rushes and then the opposition bringing light killers to counteract this? Additionally, if everyone starts bringing light killers into matches then the game becomes battles between light killers. This would be because you have no idea what the opposing team is going to drop, so the safe bet would be to always bring light killers in your drop deck.

If you had 10 straight games without light rushes, would you still bring light killers? What if it's 100? 1000?

[Mystere]

Almond Brown, on 22 April 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

You make it sound as if the I.S. won't have the same restriction applied to them. So no more TDR/TDR/TDR/Light or Med filler. Best to promote variety, even if it seems forced than stagnate with the current bs status quo. If the Clans suffer, Quirk up the weak links.

I prefer that variety be player-determined, not forced. Forcing just kills variety as far as I am concerned. Because of 3/3/3/3 in the solo queue, I no longer see light wolf packs, Steiner lances/companies, LRM fire teams, etc.

[Soulstrom]

Mystere, on 22 April 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:

If you had 10 straight games without light rushes, would you still bring light killers? What if it's 100? 1000?

The simple answer is, no. However, when will you know when a light rush is imminent? The answer to that is never.

[operatorZ]

InRev, on 19 April 2015 - 08:32 AM, said:

Or they should just scrap the painfully boring MOBA mode and create something that would actually encourage people to not just stack choke-point mechs and choke-point avoiding lights.

You know, something like a big, expansive map that requires scouting, maneuver, skirmishing etc.

. . .

. . .

But who am I kidding? Enjoy your FPS MOBA with robots.

Unfortunately with the low TTK (quirk power creep) scouting in anything less then a mech that can go 140kph = suicide and breaking your group up into several lances also = suicide. The big organized group wins vs. flanking and maneuvers...its all about that coordinated fire


bigger maps wont solve anything until mechs can absorb more punishment.

[Kain Demos]

Mystere, on 18 April 2015 - 10:42 PM, said:

That's what we get when people cry loudly on the forums instead of ... drum roll please ... L2P.

People know loudly crying on the forums works. So they do it over and over and over and over again ad infinitum.

Frankly, I think it would be better to make the 4-mech limit a maximum, not a requirement. If someone wants to bring 3 80-ton assaults, let them. Two Atlases and a Cicada? Why not?

Might as well also lose the minimum drop weight requirement. If someone wants to bring 4 Locusts, let them.

Knowing them the 4 'mech minimum thing is probably here to stay because of "programming issues" though.

[Mystere]

Soulstrom, on 22 April 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

The simple answer is, no. However, when will you know when a light rush is imminent? The answer to that is never.

Precisely. Which is why I expect human nature to kick in, which I then plan to exploit.

Edited by Mystere, 22 April 2015 - 09:14 PM.

[Valar13]

If light rushing is OP, how come Marik can shut them down as easily as we can run them?

[TripleEhBeef]

Valar13, on 22 April 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

If light rushing is OP, how come Marik can shut them down as easily as we can run them?

Because those Loyalty Point bonuses can be used to buy more Old Kentucky Bourbon and Space Bacon ration packs.

Motivation, my friend.

[Hydrocarbon]

1/1/1/1 decks are stupid, as is a 3/3/3/3 team idea. Both have huge, obvious issues that are more numerous & damaging than the occasional light rush.

Simply institute an in-game rule that prevents a team from dropping more than 6 lights at the same time - except for last wave. 6 lights and 6 fast mediums is a lot easier to deal with. If it's a PUG match and everyone selects a light, pick 6 random players to either not drop til they select another mech OR pick a random mech from their deck instead. If a team wants to waste 18 mechs to get a full wave of lights (suicide half their first 3 waves), let them.

[Chef Kerensky]

Geist Null, on 19 April 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

Months of heavy meta data and QQ posts. I'm ok with 1/1/1/1, I just hope the 250 tonnage limit stays too. People need to make difficult decisions to keep the game interesting, cause stalker/timby slap fights are getting old

"Which dogshit mech do I want to bring to round out a drop deck I could have filled entirely with good mechs" is not a decision I want to find myself making, nor do I think anyone should have to make it.

[Valar13]

TripleEhBeef, on 22 April 2015 - 06:54 PM, said:

Because those Loyalty Point bonuses can be used to buy more Old Kentucky Bourbon and Space Bacon ration packs.

Motivation, my friend.

I just think people who immediately write off ever running a light rush don't get that it's not always a tactic meant to win a match in one go, and is often just an attempt to put the other team on their back foot and sow discord among their ranks. Or piss them off and make them fight stupid, depending.

Edited by Valar13, 22 April 2015 - 08:15 PM.

[Valar13]

Hydrocarbon, on 22 April 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

1/1/1/1 decks are stupid, as is a 3/3/3/3 team idea. Both have huge, obvious issues that are more numerous & damaging than the occasional light rush.

Simply institute an in-game rule that prevents a team from dropping more than 6 lights at the same time - except for last wave. 6 lights and 6 fast mediums is a lot easier to deal with. If it's a PUG match and everyone selects a light, pick 6 random players to either not drop til they select another mech OR pick a random mech from their deck instead. If a team wants to waste 18 mechs to get a full wave of lights (suicide half their first 3 waves), let them.

Considering a lot of groups use the lights at the end anyway as a mop-up tactic...that doesn't really fix what you think it fixes.

[Chef Kerensky]

Hydrocarbon, on 22 April 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

1/1/1/1 decks are stupid, as is a 3/3/3/3 team idea. Both have huge, obvious issues that are more numerous & damaging than the occasional light rush.

Simply institute an in-game rule that prevents a team from dropping more than 6 lights at the same time - except for last wave. 6 lights and 6 fast mediums is a lot easier to deal with. If it's a PUG match and everyone selects a light, pick 6 random players to either not drop til they select another mech OR pick a random mech from their deck instead. If a team wants to waste 18 mechs to get a full wave of lights (suicide half their first 3 waves), let them.

Why do this? If a team wants to coordinate 12 lights they should be free to do so. Just increase generator health (or if you want to get fancy, provide some sort of shield with damage mitigation directly proportional to how many mechs are alive on the enemy team) so those lights have to kill things instead, just like every other mech in the game. What's more is that this also fixes stormcrow rushing, madcat rushing, and objective rushing in general. How is this hard?

Edited by Chef Kerensky, 22 April 2015 - 08:22 PM.