17 replies to this topic

[Kuritaclan]

So what is up with this postulation?

apology for my lousy englando


Intro:
Looking back and beyond everybody who is in this game since beta notice at least progress. Some say it was to slow others say not the right steps on the right time and so on. We can blame the developers of this game anyday long, for things that were wrong or seems wrong to us. In the end it doesn't matter, because it is unchangable past. However we can make suggestions about what this game has to be for us and how it is played.

Look back:
What did happend the last years.

2012 to 2013
We got some mechs, we got some maps, we got some mechs, we got some mechs, we got some more mechs. There is a pattern?

2013 to 2014
We got some diffrent game queues solo, groupe, cw with even more maps.
We got some more mechs - jeah.
We got a new ui, and some improvement to the graphics - however effects and over all textures went down the hill as the time goes on.

2014 to 2015
We got some more mechs and some more maps
We noticed that with clan introduction and cw it was time to start balance, and now we are in a balance phase with quirk the **** out of everything.

Now:
The last thing this game actually needs are more mechs and more maps. Yes we all wanna have new things to play with/on and sure we love to have sparkle in the eyes seeing the hangar, and yes there are a few more mechs needed to make by classweight a balance between clan and is - e.g. the need for a heavy mech with ecm and such things. And yes the maps needs improvement and the developers are into it. And we see the first efforts of balance. Ok since CW introduction there is a overflow on nerf this buff that posts going on with different claims what is op and what underpowered, but over all the balance take jumps forward.

Future:
But all the progress made in some parts on the game left a full spectrum of the BT universe away. After we had this mega thread about convergence (http://mwomercs.com/...of-convergence/) i noticed that we are on a point in the game, that it needs to be deeper. The challenge for this game is not to be another casual shooter or another simulation of anything like the fork-lift truck or goat simulator. The BT universe itself give us a 1:1 setup of the real world and the wish that realism is simulated in this game.

The only thing what is by now achived i would connect with the word depht is the changes a player can make to the mech to bind it to his needs for his playstyle by equiping. This part is fine and "realistic", beside the claim, that it needs very much time to equip mechs with a certain loadout and much c-bills to do so (tabletop enthusiasts refer to and question how could a spot on a mech holding a MG fit a big AC20). We can talk over and over about this maybee agree or not, but with balance in the background and the fact clanmechs are omni, there is no chance for IS mechs or we had some major construction sites to balance this game for a good Player vs Player experience.

But now let us talk about other things that are supposed to be depth - but they are not.

1.) The Skill tree while having a way to upgrade the mech it does not have depth.
To explain it. You need 3 mechs to master all and get the boni of the skill tree. But this boni are timewaste/timesinks - they do not change anything, they make a mech better playable compared to a mech without. Or to say it another way all the boni a full mastered mech get by skilling could be on the mech in first place and newpalyer experience would be on par with the experience someone have, who has mastered it. It set new players back, because they need to achive the mastery of the skilltree anyway, but when they achived it the mechs are still the same to everybody else. There is no depth that you need to sacrifice something to get something else and be better on a special task. To make an example a energy based build likes to run hotter than a ballistic build - so in the one build the heat skillpoints are more valuable than in the other. If we now say you only have a certain count of skillpoints to make them individual then it would add depth. You wanna be the agile "fast in - fast out" annoying player we get it skill this but sacrifice that. You wanna be the ultra durable longtime dps turret sure here are the skill tree to do so, but running around and beeing agile - nopp you do not get this. You wanna be a jack of all trades - fine skill the points you think fit best, but some you can not have.

2.) There is no depth in the mechs themself. Or better to say this game has the chance to be more skillfull if it would be redesignd. The 3D Models of the Mechs are easy to hit (not incuding problems like hitreg) - and you can hit whatever you want as long as you have the skill to do it. But in the end the area you hit is so big, that you do not fail to hit the mech anyway. If we want the game to be a realistic simulation and depth introduced, we need the innards to be a part of the simulation, so we see a leap in difficulty to kill mechs. If you don't hit the right parts you do not kill this war machines, if you hit the same spot twice you will not do damage because you destroyed everything what was in the spot on the first time and so on. The realism needs to advance. How it is achived is up to the programmers. - Just take 3 mechs and model the innards in roughly and make layers. in the mech to so you can see if this is a way to go. Just that you get an idea how it would change the gameplay and we the players have something to comment to make it more realistic.

3.) Heatmanagment needs to be rethought and add penalty for certain points. By now it is 0-100 and you can do whatever you want. This needs to be deeper at least it needs some effect on the Player - all we know by the lore is that Mechwarriors were affected by heat. So why we do not see anything of this in the game?

4.) There is no depth in CW yet. Yes we all know it there is promise with logistics and traveling from planet to planet and so on. In do not say anything about this, because i hope that there are ideas around to acomplish this.

5.) There is no depth in economy. The c-bill income is sustain for buying new mechs and equiping them. It is dependend on your performance, how fast you can get new stuff and you have some ways with real money to up your income or bypass the grind at all. This is ok. But skipping R&R and the whole marketplace of a universe left a game in our hands that is just boring. Instead of advancing the game regressed to slime. If you take world of warcraft for example with its economy simulation - there are players playing the game a economy sime - while you do not have to achive such a depth since MWO isn't a AAA title, you need to make it feel like an economy, that restricts the players. However there needs to be a balance so F2P-Player are not forced to buy ingame currency.


6.) point there is no depth is terrain and graphics. The players complain about the the trees in the new cw map. xD. Nothing more to say. You fit into the Map trees what look like they were designed for a 800x600 resolution with a late 90s engine. For sure we all know you wanna bring out new maps diffrent maps big maps - but really if you bring them out rather skip such graphics and add them later instead of adding placeholders you never will fix because you open up over time to much costruction sites.

7.) there is no depth in look of the mechs - sure we have colors and we have paterns and you can compose some pretty cool looking mechs. But you can not upload patterns or styles to customize mechs. How you make money you ask with customize style? Simple creat a tool so everybody can make customize looks of mechs, the could upload into the game, and give alle palyers the chance to buy those skins for a fairshare. For example a player make a skin hand it over to you via upload - now everybody in the community can apply it to his mech he have to buy it for 1k MC the uploader gets 50MC per application and you get 950. Business model - sounds that way? Prices are onto debate. I bring this up because you do not use your loyal community to make this game a game they want to be part of.

You have problems? How about the community to ask to help for a share via MC. The second point i made for example was the design of 3D- Model innards - you don't have the developers to create 60 different 3D models for engines in size and shape or the other hundreds of sub components? How about letting the community model them in a CAD programm to upload to you and you exchange their effort via MC. It cost you nothing beside the man hours having a converter for CAD Models into the game Cry Engine.

There are many ways to bring depth into the game with a rather fast progress, if you use the community to your advantage. But if you refuse this and don't see that you designd a game up untill now, what only scratch the surface of what it could be, than you may need to take a moment and think what to do next.

Feel free to add up more points.

Sincerly Kuritaclan

Edited by Kuritaclan, 19 April 2015 - 04:19 AM.

[HellJumper]

You can suggest ad many things as you wabt but the baseline is that this game will always get priority on making new mech packs, everything else is a backseat for them . The reason is sinple, mechpacks bring money. Everything elses just dont. This is why we always see mire abd mire mechs as compared to fixing a lot of things already existing.

Cw, heat management, graphics, map etc wont happen ever to its full state. Not unles they let out the community mod stufffor them.

I dott understand why cant rhey let the community make maps for example. All the resources saved from that can be used on other things like ce, ui, heat management.

[CptGier]

MOre depth? yeah. Will we see it? probably never.

[Bloody]

well i believe you already know the answer to this, PGI simply do not have the resources or ability to flesh out the game other than milk the existing whale playerbase.

just look at the development plans etc.

Any plans to improve the skill trees, overhaul them to provide a more unique and player designed experience? No

Any plans to improve graphic fidelity , change the way the game plays? No

Any plans to actually fix the existing issues with Hit Reg, Jump jets etc game bugs ? well they avoided the question entirely so yeah No

what you get is, hey guys more mechs with superior hit boxes / quirks for you to buy!

Edited by Bloody, 19 April 2015 - 04:41 PM.

[Lindonius]

Kuritaclan, on 19 April 2015 - 01:11 AM, said:

So what is up with this postulation?

apology for my lousy englando


Intro:
Looking back and beyond everybody who is in this game since beta notice at least progress. Some say it was to slow others say not the right steps on the right time and so on. We can blame the developers of this game anyday long, for things that were wrong or seems wrong to us. In the end it doesn't matter, because it is unchangable past. However we can make suggestions about what this game has to be for us and how it is played.

Look back:
What did happend the last years.

2012 to 2013
We got some mechs, we got some maps, we got some mechs, we got some mechs, we got some more mechs. There is a pattern?

2013 to 2014
We got some diffrent game queues solo, groupe, cw with even more maps.
We got some more mechs - jeah.
We got a new ui, and some improvement to the graphics - however effects and over all textures went down the hill as the time goes on.

2014 to 2015
We got some more mechs and some more maps
We noticed that with clan introduction and cw it was time to start balance, and now we are in a balance phase with quirk the **** out of everything.

Now:
The last thing this game actually needs are more mechs and more maps. Yes we all wanna have new things to play with/on and sure we love to have sparkle in the eyes seeing the hangar, and yes there are a few more mechs needed to make by classweight a balance between clan and is - e.g. the need for a heavy mech with ecm and such things. And yes the maps needs improvement and the developers are into it. And we see the first efforts of balance. Ok since CW introduction there is a overflow on nerf this buff that posts going on with different claims what is op and what underpowered, but over all the balance take jumps forward.

Future:
But all the progress made in some parts on the game left a full spectrum of the BT universe away. After we had this mega thread about convergence (http://mwomercs.com/...of-convergence/) i noticed that we are on a point in the game, that it needs to be deeper. The challenge for this game is not to be another casual shooter or another simulation of anything like the fork-lift truck or goat simulator. The BT universe itself give us a 1:1 setup of the real world and the wish that realism is simulated in this game.

The only thing what is by now achived i would connect with the word depht is the changes a player can make to the mech to bind it to his needs for his playstyle by equiping. This part is fine and "realistic", beside the claim, that it needs very much time to equip mechs with a certain loadout and much c-bills to do so (tabletop enthusiasts refer to and question how could a spot on a mech holding a MG fit a big AC20). We can talk over and over about this maybee agree or not, but with balance in the background and the fact clanmechs are omni, there is no chance for IS mechs or we had some major construction sites to balance this game for a good Player vs Player experience.

But now let us talk about other things that are supposed to be depth - but they are not.

1.) The Skill tree while having a way to upgrade the mech it does not have depth.
To explain it. You need 3 mechs to master all and get the boni of the skill tree. But this boni are timewaste/timesinks - they do not change anything, they make a mech better playable compared to a mech without. Or to say it another way all the boni a full mastered mech get by skilling could be on the mech in first place and newpalyer experience would be on par with the experience someone have, who has mastered it. It set new players back, because they need to achive the mastery of the skilltree anyway, but when they achived it the mechs are still the same to everybody else. There is no depth that you need to sacrifice something to get something else and be better on a special task. To make an example a energy based build likes to run hotter than a ballistic build - so in the one build the heat skillpoints are more valuable than in the other. If we now say you only have a certain count of skillpoints to make them individual then it would add depth. You wanna be the agile "fast in - fast out" annoying player we get it skill this but sacrifice that. You wanna be the ultra durable longtime dps turret sure here are the skill tree to do so, but running around and beeing agile - nopp you do not get this. You wanna be a jack of all trades - fine skill the points you think fit best, but some you can not have.

2.) There is no depth in the mechs themself. Or better to say this game has the chance to be more skillfull if it would be redesignd. The 3D Models of the Mechs are easy to hit (not incuding problems like hitreg) - and you can hit whatever you want as long as you have the skill to do it. But in the end the area you hit is so big, that you do not fail to hit the mech anyway. If we want the game to be a realistic simulation and depth introduced, we need the innards to be a part of the simulation, so we see a leap in difficulty to kill mechs. If you don't hit the right parts you do not kill this war machines, if you hit the same spot twice you will not do damage because you destroyed everything what was in the spot on the first time and so on. The realism needs to advance. How it is achived is up to the programmers. - Just take 3 mechs and model the innards in roughly and make layers. in the mech to so you can see if this is a way to go. Just that you get an idea how it would change the gameplay and we the players have something to comment to make it more realistic.

3.) Heatmanagment needs to be rethought and add penalty for certain points. By now it is 0-100 and you can do whatever you want. This needs to be deeper at least it needs some effect on the Player - all we know by the lore is that Mechwarriors were affected by heat. So why we do not see anything of this in the game?

4.) There is no depth in CW yet. Yes we all know it there is promise with logistics and traveling from planet to planet and so on. In do not say anything about this, because i hope that there are ideas around to acomplish this.

5.) There is no depth in economy. The c-bill income is sustain for buying new mechs and equiping them. It is dependend on your performance, how fast you can get new stuff and you have some ways with real money to up your income or bypass the grind at all. This is ok. But skipping R&R and the whole marketplace of a universe left a game in our hands that is just boring. Instead of advancing the game regressed to slime. If you take world of warcraft for example with its economy simulation - there are players playing the game a economy sime - while you do not have to achive such a depth since MWO isn't a AAA title, you need to make it feel like an economy, that restricts the players. However there needs to be a balance so F2P-Player are not forced to buy ingame currency.


6.) point there is no depth is terrain and graphics. The players complain about the the trees in the new cw map. xD. Nothing more to say. You fit into the Map trees what look like they were designed for a 800x600 resolution with a late 90s engine. For sure we all know you wanna bring out new maps diffrent maps big maps - but really if you bring them out rather skip such graphics and add them later instead of adding placeholders you never will fix because you open up over time to much costruction sites.

7.) there is no depth in look of the mechs - sure we have colors and we have paterns and you can compose some pretty cool looking mechs. But you can not upload patterns or styles to customize mechs. How you make money you ask with customize style? Simple creat a tool so everybody can make customize looks of mechs, the could upload into the game, and give alle palyers the chance to buy those skins for a fairshare. For example a player make a skin hand it over to you via upload - now everybody in the community can apply it to his mech he have to buy it for 1k MC the uploader gets 50MC per application and you get 950. Business model - sounds that way? Prices are onto debate. I bring this up because you do not use your loyal community to make this game a game they want to be part of.

You have problems? How about the community to ask to help for a share via MC. The second point i made for example was the design of 3D- Model innards - you don't have the developers to create 60 different 3D models for engines in size and shape or the other hundreds of sub components? How about letting the community model them in a CAD programm to upload to you and you exchange their effort via MC. It cost you nothing beside the man hours having a converter for CAD Models into the game Cry Engine.

There are many ways to bring depth into the game with a rather fast progress, if you use the community to your advantage. But if you refuse this and don't see that you designd a game up untill now, what only scratch the surface of what it could be, than you may need to take a moment and think what to do next.

Feel free to add up more points.

Sincerly Kuritaclan

Seeing as the CEO has stated that nobody in PGI has the ability to program switchable ammo, I suspect those other things you want will be a long time coming.

Edited by Lindonius, 19 April 2015 - 04:47 PM.

[Tennex]

More depth in mech building? no

More depth in skill tree, pilot skills, faction ranking content?? YEESSSS

[bad arcade kitty]

meanwhile when we need more depth in the gameplay some people want to decrease it and ask to nerf ecm

[Mystere]

Of course we do.

Edited by Mystere, 19 April 2015 - 04:57 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

I personally can't handle the amount of depth in this game. We need to lock all players to 3PV, remove all the mechs except Timber Wolf, Storm Crow, Dire Wolf, Thunderbolt, Firestarter and Stalker, and replace the C-bill system with giant gold coins that pop out of enemy mechs when they die. And then you have to run around and collect the gold coins on the battlefield.

MWO is 2 deep 4 me. Someone teach me how to boat medium pulse lasers.

[bad arcade kitty]

Alistair Winter, on 19 April 2015 - 05:16 PM, said:

I personally can't handle the amount of depth in this game. We need to lock all players to 3PV, remove all the mechs except Timber Wolf, Storm Crow, Dire Wolf, Thunderbolt, Firestarter and Stalker, and replace the C-bill system with giant gold coins that pop out of enemy mechs when they die. And then you have to run around and collect the gold coins on the battlefield.

MWO is 2 deep 4 me. Someone teach me how to boat medium pulse lasers.

https://camo.githubu...7616d652e676966

^ a dire walf is chased by a group of light mechs while collecting his rewards

[InspectorG]

Alistair Winter, on 19 April 2015 - 05:16 PM, said:

I personally can't handle the amount of depth in this game. We need to lock all players to 3PV, remove all the mechs except Timber Wolf, Storm Crow, Dire Wolf, Thunderbolt, Firestarter and Stalker, and replace the C-bill system with giant gold coins that pop out of enemy mechs when they die. And then you have to run around and collect the gold coins on the battlefield.

MWO is 2 deep 4 me. Someone teach me how to boat medium pulse lasers.

Well, little buddy. You better learn to boat them MPLs cuz if you dont you will be LIVING IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!!!

[Kuritaclan]

HellJumper, on 19 April 2015 - 01:32 AM, said:

You can suggest ad many things as you wabt but the baseline is that this game will always get priority on making new mech packs, everything else is a backseat for them . The reason is sinple, mechpacks bring money. Everything elses just dont. This is why we always see mire abd mire mechs as compared to fixing a lot of things already existing.

Yeah this is a good point. I don't say they should not bring out mechs. We need a steady flow of new ones to have a better over all balance and fill niches.

However the question is, if PGI will create actually content. And if they don't have the ressources to do so is their a way to include the community to built up the content. Is there any interrest of the community to do so?

Lindonius, on 19 April 2015 - 04:47 PM, said:

Seeing as the CEO has stated that nobody in PGI has the ability to program switchable ammo, I suspect those other things you want will be a long time coming.

Yeah its a problem they can not achive it. But if they free up other stuff to let the community support with those things, maybee then are ressources available to do so. It also depends on the community - are they willing to do so.
MWO won't have a community like minecraft, but in the end something like this is the way to go to make a game what holds his time for the upcoming years. Player created content supervised by the devolpers. MWO is pretty oldschool game publishing.

Mystere, on 19 April 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

Of course we do.

Sure something to include if wished by community.

[Sandersson Jankins]

Don't disagree with anything posted.

Realistically, I've decided the only real way to catalyze community-generated suggestions being even considered is to get everyone posting on these topics to use their twitter, get a twitter. Tweet like twice a week at Russ.

Hell, if we REALLY wanted to do it, we would form some private group and decide which tweet we'd use that week. Or something of that nature. Let's straight-up shill our way to a better MWO!

Best part is, we can organize it right in PGI's own forums, since I don't they look at them so much

Edited by Sandersson Jankins, 19 April 2015 - 10:45 PM.

[Chemie]

To quote Jack Nicholas, "What if this is as good as it gets?"

I think PGI has settled into their vision of the game. Lots of mech packs, minor tweaks and additions every 6 months.

[Raggedyman]

Kuritaclan, on 19 April 2015 - 01:11 AM, said:

1.) The Skill tree while having a way to upgrade the mech it does not have depth.

They are doing a rework with the trees for each mech tailored to the mech in question. hopefully it'll have some options, rather than just being a 'max out with everything' approach.

Kuritaclan, on 19 April 2015 - 01:11 AM, said:

2.) There is no depth in the mechs themself. Or better to say this game has the chance to be more skillfull if it would be redesignd.

lulwut?
They are big arse walking tanks. You don't need overly complicated mechanics, you need to blow the snot out of it. Take for example a tank. If you blow the snot out of it it stops-moving-goes-boom. Yeah, there are some fancy things you can do but it's most 'hit this general area really damn hard!' because in a kinetic combat situation (like, for example, a tank battle) you can't really get all that fancy.

Kuritaclan, on 19 April 2015 - 01:11 AM, said:

3.) Heatmanagment needs to be rethought and add penalty for certain points.

It would be splendid to see the TT heat effects semi-replicated in MWO. However it would also slow down the game (imo good) and anger a lot of players by being rather complicated and arbitrary.

Kuritaclan, on 19 April 2015 - 01:11 AM, said:

4.) There is no depth in CW yet.

So your basic issue here is "the beta content is still in beta"?
Profound.

Kuritaclan, on 19 April 2015 - 01:11 AM, said:

5.) There is no depth in economy.

WoW is an RPG style game with harvesting and skills and slow build ups of trading and raids and other stuff
MWO is an FPS style game with shooting and making things go boom-dead
If your complaint is that the economy isn't complicated enough then you are quite possibly playing the wrong kind of game.

As for " However there needs to be a balance so F2P-Player are not forced to buy ingame currency.": people need to give PGI money to keep the game going. If your suggestion involves people giving less money to PGI your suggestion is going to kill the game.

Kuritaclan, on 19 April 2015 - 01:11 AM, said:

6.) point there is no depth is terrain and graphics.

Do you want more frequent maps or more detailed maps? Because you can't have both.
Also more detail = more barrier to entry, as not everyone has a souped up machine.

Kuritaclan, on 19 April 2015 - 01:11 AM, said:

7.) there is no depth in look of the mechs - sure we have colors and we have paterns and you can compose some pretty cool looking mechs.

Decals are being worked on.
Profit share on MC sales is an interesting concept, as long as it ups sales or at least covers it's implementation.

[EvilCow]

It is not simply lack of depth, it is lack of ambition, or at least it started that way.
Minimum Viable Product

Now they seem to be pushing on development but there is still that apparent unwillingness to address old problems.

[Dolph Hoskins]

I think we need more MW5 in the game.

[kesmai]

If the map designers could lower the ground level of water filled areas on crimson, forest and rc i think we could achieve more depth easily. Just imagine full submerged mecha action.
enough depth for everyone then...