44 replies to this topic

[xMintaka]

Tristan Winter, on 21 April 2015 - 12:12 PM, said:

Now, only time will tell if a heat neutral mech will destroy game balance and bring chaos to MWO.

We're not allowed heat neutral mechs.

[Metus regem]

Lunatech, on 21 April 2015 - 01:15 PM, said:

We're not allowed heat neutral mechs.

See the last post by Tristan or myself that dis-prove the lack of heat neutrality in MWO

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Metus regem, on 21 April 2015 - 01:13 PM, said:

The real weird thing is, even in TT, there are heat neutral mechs, though considerably a rare thing to find, the first one that comes to mind for me is the WHM-6Rb Royal Warhammer....

So I guess I just don't understand why PGI is so against heat neutral mechs, they usually have to give up speed or fire power to get it...

Because heat management is a large facet of gameplay in the Mechwarrior series and allowing for heat neutral energy mechs that were insanely powerful in BT generally goes against making that a facet of gameplay.

[FupDup]

WM Quicksilver, on 21 April 2015 - 01:17 PM, said:

Because heat management is a large facet of gameplay in the Mechwarrior series and allowing for heat neutral energy mechs that were insanely powerful in BT generally goes against making that a facet of gameplay.

The funny thing is that designing a mech that isn't completely neutral isn't necessarily a bad thing... you don't want to be an oven on legs of course, but having a bit of net heat can be good if you use that net heat in moderation.

The idea is that you probably won't be constantly engaged 24/7 for a whole match, so having some occasional downtime to vent heat would make sense. A 100% heat neutral mech is built on the assumption that you never, ever, stop firing. This can be inefficient when the enemy isn't in your crosshairs for whatever reason.

A non-neutral mech has the ability to pack a bit of a larger payload for higher burst damage, but at the cost of not being as sustainable. It's more of a hit-and-run type fighting style. This can actually counter a heat-neutral mech if used correctly, dealing more damage in a short time than they can and then hiding while you dissipate.

But don't worry, because Paul has already spoken long ago:

Paul, in ATD #43 said:

Answer from Paul: There are no current plans to change the heat threshold towards TT values. Are we hard set against it? No, just at the moment there’s no need to do this.

Playing with a higher rate of cooling makes a lot more builds become heat neutral. A lot of heat neutral builds results in mid-range damage applied at a constant rate over time. This mechanism would be highly exploited by those with knowledge of building efficient heat neutral Mechs.

[Metus regem]

WM Quicksilver, on 21 April 2015 - 01:17 PM, said:

Because heat management is a large facet of gameplay in the Mechwarrior series and allowing for heat neutral energy mechs that were insanely powerful in BT generally goes against making that a facet of gameplay.

Of that I am aware, that's why I said, that having something heat netural in TT, means they are giving something up, either fire power or speed, two things that can be your death...

I can make a heat neutral mech, I would consider the AWS-8Q Heat netural, if you only stick to 3/3/2 firing patter for the PPC's that way you never cross that magic 5 heat mark in TT...

[xMintaka]

Metus regem, on 21 April 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

See the last post by Tristan or myself that dis-prove the lack of heat neutrality in MWO

Those are hardly the most effective builds though, no offence intended. The extra laser or two don't really add much to a dual guass build if you can aim worth a damn. Much better to take a Targetting Comp for the projectile velocity buff or more ammo.

All imho of course.

[Metus regem]

Lunatech, on 21 April 2015 - 01:23 PM, said:

Those are hardly the most effective builds though, no offence intended. The extra laser or two don't really add much to a dual guass build if you can aim worth a damn. Much better to take a Targetting Comp for the projectile velocity buff or more ammo.

All imho of course.

Never said they were good, only that I ran them at one point.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Metus regem, on 21 April 2015 - 01:22 PM, said:

Of that I am aware, that's why I said, that having something heat netural in TT, means they are giving something up, either fire power or speed, two things that can be your death...

I can make a heat neutral mech, I would consider the AWS-8Q Heat netural, if you only stick to 3/3/2 firing patter for the PPC's that way you never cross that magic 5 heat mark in TT...

The AWS-8Q is also one of the best level 1 mechs for a reason. Energy boats especially the ones that are near heat neutral are very powerful in TT and I don't know that it is necessarily of benefit to the game to have that translate over exactly. That said, the current heat system could do with some improving to do away with the necessity of ghost heat to keep high alphas in check.

FupDup, on 21 April 2015 - 01:22 PM, said:

The funny thing is that designing a mech that isn't completely neutral isn't necessarily a bad thing... you don't want to be an oven on legs of course, but having a bit of net heat can be good if you use that net heat in moderation.

Oh I'm aware, but I think we could agree that we definitely don't want energy builds becoming more heat efficient considering those are the builds that lost the most heat neutrality in the translation.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 21 April 2015 - 01:29 PM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Funny thing about Paul's quote is that we really aren't working with more cooling- just bigger heat capacities (sometimes). The increased rate of fire on its own pretty much obliterates the plausibility of heat-neutral 'mechs that actually shoot that much more than non-heat-neutral 'mechs.

Besides, you can heat-neutral dang near anything. Two medium lasers and an LB10-X is heat neutral on 10 DHS, and you can always go farther than that.

[Metus regem]

WM Quicksilver, on 21 April 2015 - 01:28 PM, said:

The AWS-8Q is also one of the best level 1 mechs for a reason. Energy boats especially the ones that are near heat neutral are very powerful in TT and I don't know that it is necessarily of benefit to the game to have that translate over exactly. That said, the current heat system could do with some improving to do away with the necessity of ghost heat to keep high alphas in check.


Oh I'm aware, but I think we could agree that we definitely don't want energy builds becoming more heat efficient considering those are the builds that lost the most heat neutrality in the translation.

The thing is, even builds that would be heat neutral, like KGC-000 should be heat neutral, it is in TT, makes exactly 30 heat, and sinks 30 heat a turn... but as you can see in MWO it's 36% heat efficient, so there is something strange going on... I know that Ghost Heat royally ****s things up... but still, from totally heat neutral, to barely over a third of that... give me a brake....

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 21 April 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

The thing is, even builds that would be heat neutral, like KGC-000 should be heat neutral, it is in TT, makes exactly 30 heat, and sinks 30 heat a turn... but as you can see in MWO it's 36% heat efficient, so there is something strange going on... I know that Ghost Heat royally ****s things up... but still, from totally heat neutral, to barely over a third of that... give me a brake....

true, but's with perfect aiming for dummies, I would hate to see out TTKs if heat was less fierce, tbh.

[Insects]

Tristan Winter, on 21 April 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

Do you have any idea how quickly that would core an Atlas' back?

Slowly, 4 takes 20 seconds on trial grounds Atlas, so 15 sec with 6.
Thats a lot slower than lasers.

MG's are garbage and there is nothing between MG and heavy AC2. Ballistics on lights is horrible.
Need more small ballistics options.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

true, but's with perfect aiming for dummies, I would hate to see out TTKs if heat was less fierce, tbh.

Fair point, but as we both know, that TT heat neutral is for a 10 second turn, even with twice the firing rate, that we have here, it should still pull more than 36%...

[bad arcade kitty]

Tristan Winter, on 21 April 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

Of course, they could easily have given the LCT-1V another 2 ballistic hardpoints, for a total of 6.

i would buy it then....

[FindersWeepers]

bad arcade kitty, on 21 April 2015 - 03:06 PM, said:

i would buy it then....

I was thinking 12 energy hard points, with the 1E arms and the PB torsos, as well as the 1M CT. Small lasers of satan

[Y E O N N E]

Tristan Winter, on 21 April 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

Do you have any idea how quickly that would core an Atlas' back?

If it's anything like the fabled Jenner, 3 seconds!

In other news, damn, this thread got serious...

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 21 April 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

Fair point, but as we both know, that TT heat neutral is for a 10 second turn, even with twice the firing rate, that we have here, it should still pull more than 36%...

many weapons are 3x though, and some like ac5 and 10, especially after quirks are 10-20x TT RoF

[Hans Von Lohman]

My first game in the thing, 100% stock mind you, and I get 2 kills.

I love the Lct-3v simply because it can be run stock and with a standard engine, yet your most important weapons, the twin medium lasers survive.

The ultimate 20 ton mech for me would have 3 energy, 1 in the head, 2 in the CT, and be fast, with very, very large medium laser quirks.

I have been toying with the idea of having twin medium pulse lasers and MG's, but that means going XL engine.

[Y E O N N E]

There's nothing stopping you from doing the same with an LCT-1M, though, and it has overall better laser quirks.

[Mondos]

Is the 50% Energy range quirk correct?

Just thinking the 25% Energy range quirk on the 1M pushes TAG out to 900+ mtrs.