41 replies to this topic

[Halfinax]

Okay, for arguments sake: I had 1 second of the 2 seconds required to achieve target lock for LRM, and then you hit with a PPC (say 1 of 2 on your chasis) my targetting system now shuts down for .5 seconds. It comes back up I attempt to achieve target lock (I have no other long range weapons) again, I get another 1 second into locking onto you when you fire the second PPC, and the cycle starts over. You've now hit me twice at range with a very powerful weapon, and I've been unable to fight back. In 3 seconds you've done serious damage to my machine I've spent 1 second of that time unable to attempt to target, and I'll still need another 2 seconds to achieve a lock on with my LRMs while you can either keep moving up on me, or move away. Assuming you keep moving up on me I get another 1 second into locking onto you, and now your first PPC has recycled and you fire again. You've effectively destroyed me while I was completely unable to fight back, because thanks to the added effect to the PPC you had an imbalanced advantage with a weapon whose range is nearly the same as that of the LRM.

[ManDaisy]

I'll admit it, I am biased against missiles. What your describing is exactly how I hope it will work out. That being said I feel this is the right way to go. Missile support mechs do not have to stand still, they can fade and evade as well and also use partial cover. It feel its balanced in that regard. Also, taking into account if you fire the second ppc, how much heat do you think you'll be raking up if you continue at your current rate? If you can dodge the second ppc volley then that give you time (but not plenty) to achieve a lock to fire off your missiles. Most missile support I assume to be done behind partial cover, if you want to stand in the open and trade shots then that doesnt really fit with the role of missiles.

Unless you plan to win by being a missile turret I don't see the downside.

Also, you cant ignore the spotters, which will greatly change the way missiles are used.

The same can be said about missiles which out range ppcs. What if someone decides to shoot a steady stream of missiles rocking the poor victim back and forth so that he can never focus his shots on the attacker?

Edited by ManDaisy, 28 November 2011 - 10:47 AM.

[Halfinax]

The heat factor would be really dependent on your 'Mechs hit dissipation rate. It would be hard to get out of the way of your second shot in an urban environment in less than 1.5 seconds. I wasn't suggesting the Fire Support 'Mech that I was using in my example should be able to stand toe to toe, but it should have a fighting chance even if you caught me in the open while I was moving forward to assist my teammates more closely. You catch me on a long boulevard between two buildings you win with no ability for me to fight back.

[ManDaisy]

dumb fire those missiles , spray and pray.. I'm going to bow out of this before I get anymore heated. Hope everyone continues the debate.

[Halfinax]

You lose no accuracy, and I have to spray and pray. That is the imbalance that is where the idea even with it's merits falls short of fair and balanced play.

[Darion Rothgarr]

Most mechs would be shielded from this effect having to face this kind of fire for centuries. Sure leave the Funky arcs of electricity effect in, some fuzzyness in the HUD of the mech but no real value other than that. Its damage is that it packs a whalop, vaporizing armor where it hits. No missile lock loss, no real damage other than it looks cool.

Should your mech rattle and jiggle with every single hit from a LRM, causing your mech to jink and jar fromt eh explosive force?? Throwing your target recticle and aim all over the place. Or perhaps, your mech should be staggered with every AC hit (I am not Advocating this at all).

[feor]

Quote

Should your mech rattle and jiggle with every single hit from a LRM, causing your mech to jink and jar fromt eh explosive force?? Throwing your target recticle and aim all over the place. Or perhaps, your mech should be staggered with every AC hit (I am not Advocating this at all).

Yes, it very much should be.

[UncleKulikov]

Raeven, on 28 November 2011 - 01:31 AM, said:

You're stuck on this idea that you have to lead weapons, particularly (see what I did there?) PPC's. Bleh.

Otherwise, what's to make a PPC different than a better large laser?

[Darion Rothgarr]

feor, on 28 November 2011 - 12:19 PM, said:

Yes, it very much should be.

No, to the deteriment of the player they should not. I can understand little jinks and shaking but not massive game play altering jarring.

[ManDaisy]

I support massive jarring for realism. I believe MW 3 and 4 did this, with smaller AC 5s having very little knock while ac 10s and 20s substantial knock. LRMs, gauss, and ppc also knocked.

Rock paper scissor extra affect system:


Autocannons - Rattling (As the ac rounds chew you up)

Missiles - Knocking ( as Missiles detonate on impact)

Lasers - Heating ( as the laser beams melt you)

Gauss - Slamming (Like a Huge Knock)

PPC - Comp scramble / Knock/ Heat (guess ppc is really a ******* of weapons classes)

Edited by ManDaisy, 28 November 2011 - 03:25 PM.

[AC]

Tahawas Pitts, on 28 November 2011 - 05:32 AM, said:

I have to agree with you about not leading targets, aside from the artillery nothing in BT/MW has a range of even a kilometer. At the same time the PPC has to do something to demonstrate the fact that it's a bunch of charged plasma hitting you and messed with the electronics for a brief moment makes the most sense.

Edited: because apparently the language filter is set for Thomas the Tank Engine level words.

I agree PPC should NOT require a lead time. Let me do some basic engineering for you....

Speed of a typical 50 caliber military bullet is 3,044 ft/s (928m/s). If I am shooting at a car that is a quarter mile away (1320 feet), and if that car is traveling 55 mph (88 kph), which is a fast medium mech, so if I pick a spot on the car and fire, that spot will be 35 feet ahead of my bullet by time it gets there. Average car is 16 feet long, so I lead two car lengths to hit it. Leading in ballistics makes sense.

Now... I am firing a PPC. Electrons (lightning) travels in air at velocities reaching 205,000 ft/s. So if I am shooting at that same car at long range, then I hit the car .5 feet behind where I aimed. Do I need to lead with my PPC? Probably not.....

Also, if we can make planes that are lightning proof, then how come in the future they can't make war machines that are lightning proof? Planes get hit by lightning all the time, and they just don’t fall out of the sky….

http://www.nydailyne...rticle-1.146510


I would only agree with a PPC flicker just to add some gaming fun, as it isn't realistic. I think it was something Microsoft added for effect in MW4. Electrons always travel on the outside of a metal object. So until the armor is gone and the PPC is penetrating into the mech, there probably wouldn't be any side effects from getting hit by a PPC. So maybe that is another way to implement it. If a mech has a cored section that gets hit, then you notice an effect.

Edited by AC, 28 November 2011 - 03:43 PM.

[Malavai Fletcher]

Raeven, on 28 November 2011 - 01:31 AM, said:

You're stuck on this idea that you have to lead weapons, particularly (see what I did there?) PPC's. Bleh.

Yes i would like to see lead on the PPC,and im not overly bothered about the physics,i prefer the variation,you can use the laser which is point and click or you can use the ppc which has longer range and higher damage,but you have to learn how to aim it.

[ManDaisy]

the answer is because we make lightning airplane proof in the future.

[WhiteTiger]

Malavai Fletcher, on 28 November 2011 - 03:49 PM, said:

Yes i would like to see lead on the PPC,and im not overly bothered about the physics,i prefer the variation,you can use the laser which is point and click or you can use the ppc which has longer range and higher damage,but you have to learn how to aim it.

I disagree with the leading issue and for the same reasons everyone stated why they are against it. I like the knocking idea which is more the reason for losing your lock on the target than the static issue.
LRM's cause a lot of knocking themselves, as they should. The real issue is how well you use cover as opposed to running around in the open like a bleeping fool. Lol In regards to supporting your lance mate, running in and exposing both of you to fire plays right into the enemies hands. Instead of one mech down you lose two, in that case there is no fair play or balancing for rash descisions. Just dead mechs.
The PPC has always been one of the most effective weapons in BT, as it should be in MW. If done right the PPC has two weaknesses, high heat and not being able to use it effectively at short range(How the developers plan to simulate that remains to be seen).

[Volkite]

Actually, though I agree with the idea of shorting out the HUD and whatnot on the victim of a PPC shot, all I actually WANT is the age-old onset of 5 heat per hit.

[Tahawas Pitts]

When did heat occur from getting damaged? I can remember being able to use flamers to increase the heat of another mech instead of damaging it, but not damage causing heat.

[Miles Tails Prower]

MW4 handled it fine, you take the kinetic force from the impact and your HUD instruments get scrambled for a brief moment. It was the tell tale sign of a PPC impact.

[Raeven]

UncleKulikov, on 28 November 2011 - 02:03 PM, said:

Otherwise, what's to make a PPC different than a better large laser?

The amount of damage it does, the amount of heat you suffer from firing it, the amount the weapon weighs, and the reload time. All but the damage is already worse than Large Lasers and you want to penalise the weapon more by making it a lead to hit weapon?

No weapon should have a lead time in this game, especially if they use a Cone of Inaccuracy. The balance is already built into the numbers. The highest damage weapons are limited by weight, size, ammo, heat, or range (often a combination of those).

You don't remember how little use AC weapons recieved in MW4? There were a few who had figured out the lead times of AC weapons, some to devastating effect. The rest of the rabble relied on Lasers and Missles. I personally don't want to see that again. The PPC is suppose to be top dog, until Gauss rifles come along. I'd like it to remain that way.

[verybad]

Miles Tails Prower, on 28 November 2011 - 09:13 PM, said:

MW4 handled it fine, you take the kinetic force from the impact and your HUD instruments get scrambled for a brief moment. It was the tell tale sign of a PPC impact.

^ This.

Leading for a PPC would be rridiculous.

There should be very little lead time for any weapons, because as we all know, it's an online game, and lead time on weapons combined with even a small amount of lag= fail. Weapons that have a long travel time should be largely guided and or area effect. Otherwise they get shelved.

I wouldn't mind however if standard PPCs had a small amount of feedback (damage and or HUD static) if your target was too close. This simulates minimum range and makes them a little more different from lasers.

[Malavai Fletcher]

Raeven, on 29 November 2011 - 12:18 AM, said:

You don't remember how little use AC weapons recieved in MW4? There were a few who had figured out the lead times of AC weapons, some to devastating effect. The rest of the rabble relied on Lasers and Missles. I personally don't want to see that again. The PPC is suppose to be top dog, until Gauss rifles come along. I'd like it to remain that way.

I played with the rabble rarely,weapons like PPC,gauss and ACs where always in common use on the servers i played.Making a weapon easier to use just because the rabble didn't take time to learn to lead it seems a really crap excuse to me.

verybad, on 29 November 2011 - 12:31 AM, said:

^ This.

Leading for a PPC would be rridiculous.

There should be very little lead time for any weapons, because as we all know, it's an online game, and lead time on weapons combined with even a small amount of lag= fail. Weapons that have a long travel time should be largely guided and or area effect. Otherwise they get shelved.

Back in the day i played on a 56k modem,there were allways people who could hit me with lead weapons,notably a guy who would constantly kick my **** at maximum range with ppc and gauss while i was in a scat.Yes there may have been lag back then,something i would think today is alot less of an issue,but a bit of lag certainly did not equal fail.