39 replies to this topic

[ShaneoftheDead]

After several thousand matches (2,965 at present) in all sorts of Mechs and weight classes, I observe that most of the Light Mechs are too tough. The only Light Mech that feels fragile like a light should feel is the Locust.

Case in point, of all the times I have piloted my Firestarter (137 matches) and of all the times that I have shot at a Firestarter it is clear to me that they can take more damage than any Medium Mech. My Hunchback feels more fragile than my Firestarter. Even after the quirks. This should not be because it throws the game's Mech classes out of balance.

Light Mechs need to have their armor moved closer to what the Locust has now. Their true armor is their speed and agility. With this enhanced armor that they have plus the speed and agility, it is no wonder CW sees Light Rushes that stomp teams that vastly out-weigh them.....which discourages players from bringing Assault Mechs or Mediums.

[Astarot]

Is this a feeling?

Or something based on hard stats? Cause if it based on hard stats, you should post it here.

If it a feeling, then I'm going to have to vote no on further nerfing a mech class that is already hard to make good amount of money.

[WonderSparks]

I have seen no reason to say that lights need less (of all things!) armor, with the possible exception of quirks (but as always, my opinion is my opinion and, as some would say, "your mileage may vary") where I feel they have just what they need.
They are tough enough to do what fighting they are intended for (ie., not face-tanking a Dire Wolf's alpha strike) while still fragile enough to require their pilots to be wary (of the aforementioned situation, among others). And the bigger they are, the better their (potential) armor, and so too is their ability to sustain damage.

Taking armor away would not only make them weaker than need be, but it would also necessitate breaking a rule: the armor/structure ratio, or simply the amount of structure points within the chassis. Neither of these are really desirable.



So, I say "no, leave their armor alone".

[ShaneoftheDead]

Good questions... Let me check.



Fact! The telling stats are W/L ratio and DpD (average Damage per Drop). DpD is the real indictment, however, because it is largely influenced by survivability. Frequent quick deaths mean a reduction in the average damage you do, despite your weapon loadout. The 30 point spread in DpD is because the Firestarter can last longer in the battle than the Hunchback! The Alpha Strikes of these Mechs are very close, 30 and 35. Both are medium to short range builds. The AC/20 on the 4G being a Crit Machine is the only reason it has a barely higher K/D ratio.

[Spleenslitta]

All this just means one thing. You're a better at using light mechs than you are at using slower mechs.
That is all.

[Astarot]

You are using your own personal stats to justify a claim, technically this falls under the Cherry picking fallacy, you do not represent the entire light mech community as a whole.

[Postumus]

Big fat no. Damage on all mechs has gone up quite a bit since clans and quirks, but light mech armor has stayed the same, while at the same time hit registration has improved, making it easier than ever to hit light mechs. Also, the way rewards work in this game, you end up making, on average, less per match playing a light mech than other classes. I'm not saying that lights don't have good games, or that a light mech cannot kill a larger mech, or get good damage numbers. Just that, on average, because they have low armor, are fairly lightly armed overall, and generally run XL engines, lights do less damage and make less Cbills than other classes of mechs. They don't need a nerf.

[Tarogato]

I agree that lights are too strong right now. I think it's because of weapon quirks - they don't need a reduction in survivability, they need a reduction in damage output. The JR7-F and Ember were the best light mechs in the game for a long time, and then quirks made everything else surpass them instead of equal them. Lights as a whole now, are just doing too much work for their tonnage, IMO. The almighty FS9-S and -A need to be tied with the JR7-F and the Ember... not better than them.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

Aim well..Light Mech by by..Aim bad....Light Mech OP.

[bad arcade kitty]

this thread should be 'firestarters should be more vulnerable'

>I agree that lights are too strong right now.

a joke, right

check how many people want to play them

[_____]

Hitreg is the problem, not light mechs themselves. 61 pt laser vom alpha into moving Firestarter: yellow armor

[FlipOver]

WonderSparks, on 21 April 2015 - 09:15 PM, said:

I have seen no reason to say that lights need less (of all things!) armor, with the possible exception of quirks (but as always, my opinion is my opinion and, as some would say, "your mileage may vary") where I feel they have just what they need.
They are tough enough to do what fighting they are intended for (ie., not face-tanking a Dire Wolf's alpha strike) while still fragile enough to require their pilots to be wary (of the aforementioned situation, among others). And the bigger they are, the better their (potential) armor, and so too is their ability to sustain damage.

Taking armor away would not only make them weaker than need be, but it would also necessitate breaking a rule: the armor/structure ratio, or simply the amount of structure points within the chassis. Neither of these are really desirable.



So, I say "no, leave their armor alone".

Personally don't think removing the armor is a solution but redesigning the hitboxes is needed!

Spleenslitta, on 21 April 2015 - 09:55 PM, said:

All this just means one thing. You're a better at using light mechs than you are at using slower mechs.
That is all.

When I hop into a light, namely Firestarts (the few light I have except from ravens) I feel I'm on the matrix, dodging bullets and zooming past all enemies. I can even go to the middle of the enemy team and come out, most of the time with over 80% armor.
This shouldn't be possible or at least should be related to the amount of luck the pilot has, but pulling this time and time again, isn't about luck or skill, it's about poorly designed hitboxes.

Astarot, on 21 April 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

You are using your own personal stats to justify a claim, technically this falls under the Cherry picking fallacy, you do not represent the entire light mech community as a whole.

I can second his stats.
I have over 100 matches played in various models of lights, meds, heavies and assaults.


A light should not be as tough as it is atm.
And I am a pretty crappy light pilot, except when I use the raven, too many matches played on that one.
Notice I didn't pull just 2 stats to make a point, I got all my lights and mediums, even those I barely played with.

Marc von der Heide, on 21 April 2015 - 10:38 PM, said:

Aim well..Light Mech by by..Aim bad....Light Mech OP.

I'm not a 100% hit per shot kinda player, but I guarantee that me and most people I play with (some are much better shots than me) have a hard time to shoot the same hitbox twice on a light when it is on the move, even if they are already damaged, it's too hard and sometimes random to be able to hit a light on the same hitbox twice (again, except when they are stationary or pooping in and out of the same cover in the same way).

bad arcade kitty, on 21 April 2015 - 10:49 PM, said:

this thread should be 'firestarters should be more vulnerable'

>I agree that lights are too strong right now.

a joke, right

check how many people want to play them

Another generic claim.
I can tell you that, when I need to pick between a medium and a light I go for the firestarter 90% of the time (exceptions made to unit play where we need a bit more punch, and then I usually go for the Shadowhawks).
Yes light mechs, need their hitboxes to be adjusted.

Edit - damn table needed to be screen-shot..

Edited by FlipOver, 22 April 2015 - 12:38 AM.

[Nightshade24]

Um... duel AC 20 any light mech and they die as fast as they would in MW1,2,3,4, MC1,2, or TT-ish...

Not sure about you, but I think the lights have about enough armour. If you are struggling to kill it try practicing at aim, or use weapons like streaks.

Keep in mind firing 2 medium lasers with only 10% of the laser connecting and the rest missing isn't gonna kill a light or any mech anytime soon.

[bad arcade kitty]

yet again, complaints about firestarters are applied to all light mechs

nothing to see here

[Rogue Jedi]

the entire arguement for this thread seems to be that Firestarters are puling above their weight so all Light Mechs need nerfing, I do not agree with this.

FlipOver, on 22 April 2015 - 12:35 AM, said:

I can second his stats.
I have over 100 matches played in various models of lights, meds, heavies and assaults.


A light should not be as tough as it is atm.
And I am a pretty crappy light pilot, except when I use the raven, too many matches played on that one.
Notice I didn't pull just 2 stats to make a point, I got all my lights and mediums, even those I barely played with.

all your stats show is that the BJ-1 with you piloting it is massively over powered, it is about 28% heavier than a Firestarter but had 80% higher damage, and a significantly higher KDR than any of your Firestarters, so the BJ-1 is doing about 1/3 more damage than it should based upon a weight to damage ratio.

discarding the BJ1 there is a clear correlation between increased damage and increased weight from your stats, the Firestarters have higher KDR than some of the heavier Mechs, but the Firestarter is extremely well suited as an assassin for damaged Mechs so I do not see that as a problem.

you seem to be looking at it as the mediums only have between 25 and 80% better damage rather than the Mechs weighing between 28% and 57% heavier have in the worst cases comparable up to 80% higher damage output, I really am not seeing any anomalies here.

[FlipOver]

Rogue Jedi, on 22 April 2015 - 01:46 AM, said:

the entire arguement for this thread seems to be that Firestarters are puling above their weight so all Light Mechs need nerfing, I do not agree with this.


all your stats show is that the BJ-1 with you piloting it is massively over powered, it is about 28% heavier than a Firestarter but had 80% higher damage, and a significantly higher KDR than any of your Firestarters, so the BJ-1 is doing about 1/3 more damage than it should based upon a weight to damage ratio.

discarding the BJ1 there is a clear correlation between increased damage and increased weight from your stats, the Firestarters have higher KDR than some of the heavier Mechs, but the Firestarter is extremely well suited as an assassin for damaged Mechs so I do not see that as a problem.

you seem to be looking at it as the mediums only have between 25 and 80% better damage rather than the Mechs weighing between 28% and 57% heavier have in the worst cases comparable up to 80% higher damage output, I really am not seeing any anomalies here.

Hi there Rogue Jedi,

I only placed info about firestartes and raven because those are the only ones I own, but I have seen for myself (and while spectating others) how hard it can be to take down other lights like spiders or even now the Urbies.

About the data:
Yeah the BJ-1 was one of those mechs I played with the best loadout possible in the most selfish way possible, so it's best to discard it from the comparisons... As you can see I barely used that mech.

About the Firestartes - being an assassin for damaged mechs, shouldn't the damage be lower and the kill count be higher?
Again, I'm not a great light pilot and I understand some better pilots don't need to do as much damage to do as good or better than myself.

But, again, this isn't about Firestarters (although they are pointed out on my data because I do not own spiders or other ones except the RVN-3L). It is about something I honestly see too many times happening and described previously (light going into the middle of the enemy team and getting away with 80%+ armor).

As exciting as it might be for the light pilot to jump in the middle of the enemies team, shoot some and dodge shots fired at him to leave with the mech still fully functional isn't nearly as close as to what should happen at most situations.

Situations like these make me wonder how tough the lights are and how different that should be, as we are talking about mechs that weigh less than 40Ts.

[Astarot]

Again, you can't use personal stats as a way to compare data, you are still performing a cherry picking data. You need stats based on a WIDE RANGE of different players. The amount of damage the average light can absorb before destruction vs the amount of damage they deal. This is data that you need more then one or two people posting their own stats. You need community wide statistics, otherwise your whining will only fall under the: Vocal minority bunch.

[Lily from animove]

Working Hitreg would fix that issue.

[Jabilo]

I have a lot of fun and sucess wth light mechs, they are a lot more powerful then they would be in lore.

Unfortunately the game right now does not have any meaningfull obejctives for light mechs to to have.

Every match is simply a deathball fight to the last mech.

Once we have meaningfull role warfare we can nerf ligh mechs, until then the way the game is played at the moment balance requires them to be as viable in combat as any other weight class.

I think the light queue shows pretty well that the community as a whole does not think light mechs in general are OP.

I agree you can wreck the enemy team wth a Firestarter, these mechs are amazing in the PUG queue But if you nerf lights then even less people will run them.

Once we have large maps with multiple objectives and a real reason to take a mech that can scout, spot and capture objectives then they can be made a lot less combat effective.

[ShaneoftheDead]

My JR7-F is slightly better than my FS9. And both are better than my BJ-1, CN9-A, CN9-AH, HBK-4G, and SHD-2H. My GRF-3M and CDA-3M (ECM) are the only better Mediums that I own. I _should_ be adding my RVN-3L, but it has ECM...that gives it a nice survivability bump so I give it a pass. BTW, my LCT-1M is smack at the bottom...where it should be for many reasons.

I have around 100 or so drops in each of those Mechs, some with much more. The DpD stats have settled in and there is hardly any movement in them when I update. Those are large enough data points. My data is there, and it suggests that Lights hit as hard as the Mediums. That is why I am suggesting that Lights be made a bit softer.

Oh, we could make Mediums have more armor....but that would push them into the Heavies and you would then have to give them and Assaults more armor then too. Laugh you may, but I _do_ know someone that believes Medium, Heavy, and Assault armor increases are just what the doctor ordered for MWO. It's their fix to boost brawling and lessen LRMs. I find it interesting.

I also agree that it could be a Hitbox issue. However, after several years I have little confidence that the Hitbox issue will be fixed. It seems easier, and cheaper, to just remove some armor hit points. It could be the small, elegant change to bring balance back to the weight classes performance.