70 replies to this topic

[STEF_]

SInce ecm was introduced 'cause qquing about lurms.... it would have made sense that ecm should spread lrm, instead of cloacking all team inside ist range.

[Juodas Varnas]

Overall, i feel they should buff direct fire capabilities of LRMs while at the same time nerfing their indirect fire.
For example, making the direct fire (when you have LoS) LRMs have increased lock on and projectile speed, decreased spread, less of an arcing trajectory (straight forward to the target, but that's just because i hate the whole look of missiles going straight up on leaving the launchers, which are placed horizontally).

I think the whole ECM nonsense is because of the indirect fire and if people were encouraged to get LoS on targets themselves, maybe ECM could be reworked. And for ECM itself, i'd say just make it negate TAG/NARC/Artemis, like it's supposed to.

Take this with a grain (more like a whole kilogram) of salt, because i'm also the guy that plays exclusively IS and would want burst fire for all ACs and stream firing for all LRMs (mostly from experience of getting shot by them and the increased amount of screen shake they do when compared to IS versions, and the fact that stream LRMs seem to have tighter spread.)

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 24 April 2015 - 02:34 AM.

[Mystere]

Lily from animove, on 24 April 2015 - 02:00 AM, said:

Also, that eyeball theory is great, I didn't knew my eyeballs could guilde missiles. It's exactly why laservomit is such meta today, because use mark 1 eyeballs, try to dumpfire lrms at the mech just walking 10m to the side, and not destroy the mech.
End match, use mark 1 brain and unequip lrms. If keeping the enemy mech in the crosshair would cause the missiles to fly to the crosshair location, now that would be working with eyeballs mark 1 and not obsoleting lrm's vs ecm covered mechs.
Dumpfire works only on short ranges when traveltime is short enough to land when the mech is still there, which is unfortunately with the minimum lrm range not feasable. or it works vs sitting ducks, but this is what I do not consider because my setup will not base on the hope of my opponents making dump decisions.

That is what TAG is for, and BAP, and NARC, and most especially teamwork.

Of course, if you refuse to or can't use any of these, there's really nothing more I can say.

[Lightfoot]

LRMs don't work now anyway. No mention of a fix for the LRM bug was in the patch notes so you get at least 2 more weeks of bugged LRMs. Confirmed, they are bugged. I say since January. The effect is that their accuracy is reduced and Artemis doesn't help much although Artemis still works on Testing Grounds ok.

I am okay with using TAG or Narc, but BAP breaks ECM at fairly long range technically. MWO makes ECM non-defeatable, but in Battle Tech it can be countered depending on terrain and sensor mode which can grant greater strength to the ECM. MWO made ECM into this Invincible=ON force-field bubble.

[kapusta11]

Not a bad (and new) idea since, you know, that's how it worked in damn TT.

Edited by kapusta11, 24 April 2015 - 09:35 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

kapusta11, on 24 April 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

Not a bad (and new) idea since, you know, that's how it worked in damn TT.

Are you sure?
Because I'm pretty sure in TT, Guardian ECM did not affect LRMs in the slightest.
And even the more powerful Angel ECM is only supposed to cause SSRMs to not lock on and be dumbfired (or something along these lines)

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 24 April 2015 - 09:41 AM.

[InspectorG]

Novakaine, on 23 April 2015 - 09:30 PM, said:

Pfft Noob this.
This what a good missle boat brings to the table.
I just don't understand all the hate.
But haters gonna hate.

it brings vulturing?

[kapusta11]

Juodas Varnas, on 24 April 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

Are you sure?
Because I'm pretty sure in TT, Guardian ECM did not affect LRMs in the slightest.
And even the more powerful Angel ECM is only supposed to cause SSRMs to not lock on and be dumbfired (or something along these lines)

LRM used cluster hits rule which was used to determine how much missiles in a volley hit the target (50% in average) i.e. missile spread. ARTEMIS increased the amount of hits reducing "spread", ECM nulified ARTEMIS bonuses increasing missile spread.

[Juodas Varnas]

kapusta11, on 24 April 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

LRM used cluster hits rule which was used to determine how much missiles in a volley hit the target (50% in average) i.e. missile spread. ARTEMIS increased the amount of hits reducing "spread", ECM nulified ARTEMIS bonuses increasing missile spread.

Yes, but if you're not running Artemis, IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING. It doesn't increase the missile spread it simply negates the bonus of the Artemis, making the missiles act like they would without it.
The thing is, it's not supposed to affect the LRMs themselves, just the additional electronic items, like Artemis, NARC, BAP et cetera.

[kapusta11]

Juodas Varnas, on 24 April 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

Yes, but if you're not running Artemis, IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING. It doesn't increase the missile spread it simply negates the bonus of the Artemis, making the missiles act like they would without it.
The thing is, it's not supposed to affect the LRMs themselves, just the additional electronic items, like Artemis, NARC, BAP et cetera.

But you should, LRMs by themselves were pretty bad in TT, 50% average hit rate, exploding ammo etc. That's not the case in MWO and novice players. And that's the reason why ECM is working the way it is in MWO.

Edited by kapusta11, 24 April 2015 - 10:11 AM.

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 23 April 2015 - 08:24 PM, said:

Unless the sniper is out in the open, LRM boat is never going to out duel it. By the time you manage to lock onto him with Lurms, he will shoot his load in your face and duck back into cover, and you will be cussing about how cheap Radar Derp module is. Also, ERLL snipers are not gonna miss.

I don't think that was the point Romeo was trying to make. If I am reading him correctly, he is making the sniper waste his time and shots trying to kill him, rather than the sniper picking off one of his team mates.

Distraction still has a use in this game.

Edited by Mystere, 24 April 2015 - 10:19 AM.

[Lightfoot]

Who brings only missiles anyway? Some do, but there is no fun in that and you get a lot of brawler duels when you use missiles so it's also tactically unwise. It's a nice challenge to try to lower the armor of brawlers so they last a shorter time brawling than you do with half LRMs or like that.

LRMs are so weak right now anyway. No stopping power for average pilots until they fix the Bug.

[Satan n stuff]

Fenrisulvyn, on 23 April 2015 - 07:58 AM, said:

Yup. People need to remember than an ECM nerf will also marginalize all the counters to ECM.

You mean all those pieces of equipment that were never supposed to counter ECM in the first place?

[Novakaine]

Romeo Deluxe, on 23 April 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

I gave you a Like Novokaine, but those end reports don't tell the whole story. Damage does help with the c-bills at the end. My CN9A can easily bring in 300 damage, and 600 damage is my newer running average since I've practiced with them more. Have gotten a few 800+ but with the ammo it tops out at roughly that. Quite hard to climb higher.

OTH I point to my post above regarding leading charges and on working as suppression. That will always bring in more wins than worrying about kills.

Thanks.
My point is not one of self-glorification.
But one being lrms being a integral part of team play.
Long story short, The opfor did even bother to send so much as a single round in my direction.
Until after I popped 5 of them.
They were to busy duking it out with the dps mechs at the bottom of the hill on alpine peaks.
I was on the low road in the rear to the north of them.
And finally when 2 mechs did detach to take me out they were just too banged up to withstand 3 medium lasers.
Yes any noob can spam lrms, but to do it effectively is another story.
One should not just dismiss any weapon system in the game, just because it's a so called n00b weapon.

[JaxRiot]

Mystere, on 24 April 2015 - 06:44 AM, said:

That is what TAG is for, and BAP, and NARC, and most especially teamwork.

Overlapping ECM bubbles actually cancel both NARC and BAP making them unreliable.

Tag works but it is limited line of sight and still requires activation and a lock before even one missile can be fired. Far more efficient to bring bang bang and pew pews.

Mystere, on 24 April 2015 - 06:44 AM, said:

Of course, if you refuse to or can't use any of these, there's really nothing more I can say.

Back to those kinds of - "Im going to equip this little box that: Removes me from radar. Greatly hinders target locks. Denies target information. Stops you from targeting me (Not target lock. Target as in press R) if Im farther than 200m. Penetrates all obstacles and terrain. Grants all allies close to me the exact same benefits as if they had it equipped themselves. Generates No heat. Requires No ammo. And is completely passive requiring me to take no action for it to function. Yet if you cant develop better team tactics to defeat my effortless little box, then you have the problem. Youre the bad players"- kind of reasoning are we?

Edited by JaxRiot, 24 April 2015 - 05:44 PM.

[Mystere]

JaxRiot, on 24 April 2015 - 05:33 PM, said:

Overlapping ECM bubbles actually cancel both NARC and BAP making them unreliable.

Tag works but it is limited line of sight and still requires activation and a lock before even one missile can be fired. Far more efficient to bring bang bang and pew pews.



Back to those kinds of - "Im going to equip this little box that: Removes me from radar. Greatly hinders target locks. Denies target information. Stops you from targeting me (Not target lock. Target as in press R) if Im farther than 200m. Penetrates all obstacles and terrain. Grants all allies close to me the exact same benefits as if they had it equipped themselves. Generates No heat. Requires No ammo. And is completely passive requiring me to take no action for it to function. Yet if you cant develop tactics to defeat my effortless little box, then you have the problem. Youre the bad player"- kind of reasoning are we?

You totally missed the most important part: teamwork.

Edited by Mystere, 24 April 2015 - 05:35 PM.

[JaxRiot]

Mystere, on 24 April 2015 - 05:35 PM, said:

You totally missed the most important part: teamwork.

Since we always drop as a team I thought the Develop tactics part would imply the whole team. But nevertheless, I apologize for being unclear and shall Edit my previous post.

JaxRiot, on 24 April 2015 - 05:33 PM, said:

Overlapping ECM bubbles actually cancel both NARC and BAP making them unreliable.

Tag works but it is limited line of sight and still requires activation and a lock before even one missile can be fired. Far more efficient to bring bang bang and pew pews.



Back to those kinds of - "Im going to equip this little box that: Removes me from radar. Greatly hinders target locks. Denies target information. Stops you from targeting me (Not target lock. Target as in press R) if Im farther than 200m. Penetrates all obstacles and terrain. Grants all allies close to me the exact same benefits as if they had it equipped themselves. Generates No heat. Requires No ammo. And is completely passive requiring me to take no action for it to function. Yet if you cant develop better team tactics to defeat my effortless little box, then you have the problem. Youre the bad players"- kind of reasoning are we?

Edited to add Team.

[Romeo Deluxe]

Mystere, on 24 April 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

I don't think that was the point Romeo was trying to make. If I am reading him correctly, he is making the sniper waste his time and shots trying to kill him, rather than the sniper picking off one of his team mates.

Distraction still has a use in this game.

Correct. I never take much damage anyways and the snipers dive for cover while teammates work on other opponents. Then they close in on the snipers that I have been giving position information on comms multiple times. I'm not the first to point this out but armor is like ammo. It's something you use up and if you use it up better than your opponents you can win.

In the solo queue people over use peeking and in fact use it poorly. They use it right until the end when they get wrecked. It should be used to get some positioning intel and coordinate with teams to hit the enemy from a flank. Then swarm in at them from 2 directions or more. Time is of the essence and waiting too long means your armor ammo is gone for that much needed push instead of being used during the push.

I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir for most forum posters, but in-game I'm constantly explaining this.

Edited by Romeo Deluxe, 24 April 2015 - 05:53 PM.

[JaxRiot]

Lily from animove, on 23 April 2015 - 05:57 AM, said:

Why is ecm then not simply increasing missile spread by 50% for every mech under the bubble? that would by far be a load more true ecm like and balance ecm a lot more.

I would like to vote Lily for both president and vice president. And ruler of the world. And my personal hero. An Oscar. The Price is Right showcase showdown prize. UFC world heavy weight belt, and a free diet coke

[Y E O N N E]

Tycho von Gagern, on 23 April 2015 - 10:42 PM, said:

Dumb-fired missiles will not be affected by ECM, just as dumb-fired missiles do not enjoy the tighter spread bestowed by Artemis.

You're trying to hang on to your Jesus Box. I get that, and I'm willing to have a debate over its merits. But let's not pretend that this is some kind of impossibly complex programming task, when MW:O is already coded to perform this very function every time an LRM+Artemis launcher locks onto a target, registers it as LOS, and fires.a tightened salvo.

According to Battletech, Guardian ECM (which is what we have) does not negate LRM locks. That may not make sense to you. Using giant stompy robots instead of tanks doesn't make sense to me, personally, except its a lot of fun for everyone who plays.

Missiles are supposed to be an equal point in the MW:O weapons trident, equal alongside ballistics and energy (rock/paper/scissors).But LRMs are garbage, partially because to have any serious impact on the game (be it as a suppression system or a mech-killer) LRM-mechs are required to pack tons and tons of extra junk just to get them to work as advertised (Artemis, BAP, TAG) This, along with AMS, a defensive system available to all mechs that has no counterpart against ballistics or energy, forces LRM-players to commit to boating. The biggest reason LRMs are garbage is because one 2-ton Guardian ECM can so acutely diminish their effectiveness that it makes them not worth the trouble.

The magic Jesus box makes sense to people who run energy and ballistics. They're having fun. But if you want a game where the weapon categories are balanced, one that's fun for everyone who plays, ECMs that cause a +50% missile spread make as much sense as giant stompy robots.

For the record, I only have one 'Mech with ECM capabilities and I don't even use the equipped omni-pod, the MLX-C arm. It's a pretty garbage omni-pod. I'm also not usually under ECM bubbles, because they can't keep up and I need to be detached from the main arm to do my job. So I have no attachment to ECM as it currently is.

I was also referring to real ECM, so yes, BT ECM doesn't make sense to me. That said, LRMs are not supposed to be primarily indirect-fire weapons, they are supposed to be more direct-fire. If they are altered to be more accessible in that mode, not having locks becomes far, far, far less of an issue. And if I'm not mistaken...that's a very BT way of doing things.