33 replies to this topic

[Mitsuragi]

Seriously people, you aren't buying a board game. Why do you keep comparing MW:O to a $60 purchase?

How many of those $60 purchases

• do you play continuously for 3 years? (with 2 more on the way...)
  
• do you play with multiple people whenever you want?
  
• do not pay a subscription to LIVE or PLUS just to play the game!
  
• do you get regular updates?
  
• do you get free content every 3 months?

I mean really, MW:O is not a stand alone game you bought for $60 at Wal-Mart. If that's the only way you can think of things your seriously going to have a hard time in life.

PS: paying for an internet connection is a vested cost. You'd need that regardless for any PS/Xbox multiplayer game, and if not see every other point.

[El Bandito]

Mitsuragi, on 23 April 2015 - 06:40 AM, said:

Seriously people, you aren't buying a board game. Why do you keep comparing MW:O to a $60 purchase?

How many of those $60 purchases

• do you play continuously for 3 years? (with 2 more on the way...)
  
• do you play with multiple people whenever you want?
  
• do not pay a subscription to LIVE or PLUS just to play the game!
  
• do you get regular updates?
  
• do you get free content every 3 months?

I mean really, MW:O is not a stand alone game you bought for $60 at Wal-Mart. If that's the only way you can think of things your seriously going to have a hard time in life.


PS: paying for an internet connection is a vested cost. You'd need that regardless for any PS/Xbox multiplayer game, and if not see every other point.

Medieval 2: Total War. Bought in 2007. Still playing it, single-player AND multi-player. Modding is awesome.

Team Fortress 2. Paid only 5 bucks to get all I need. Played it longer than MWO, and enjoyed it longer. Crafted everything I needed. F2P game does not have to be a pure cash grabber to be successful.

Edited by El Bandito, 23 April 2015 - 07:48 AM.

[Mitsuragi]

El Bandito, on 23 April 2015 - 06:48 AM, said:

Medieval 2: Total War. Bought in 2007, Still playing it, single player AND multiplayer. Modding is awesome.

Team Fortress 2. Paid only 5 bucks for it. Played it longer than MWO, and enjoyed it longer.

Touché

[Dolph Hoskins]

says the guy with the gold mech

[Mitsuragi]

The Ripper13, on 23 April 2015 - 06:52 AM, said:

says the guy with the gold mech

If you want us to stop supporting the game so it collapses... I'm sure we can come to an arrangement

[Curccu]

El Bandito, on 23 April 2015 - 06:48 AM, said:

Team Fortress 2. Paid only 5 bucks to get all I need. Played it longer than MWO, and enjoyed it longer. Crafted everything I needed. F2P game does not have to be a pure cash grabber to be successful.

Of course it doesn't. But in that ^ case, Valve could release all of their games for free, I think it wouldn't really matter much to them.. they are making most of their money by running Steam

Edited by Curccu, 23 April 2015 - 07:04 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

It's a valid question, OP. And I think it's a good question, because the answer is obviously "Not a lot of games can match all those criteria". Out of the thousands of games out there, I guess most people have somewhere between 0 and 10 games like that, and it's probably closer to 0 than 10 for most of us.

• "do you play continuously for 3 years?" This is fairly common.
  
• "do you play with multiple people whenever you want?" Also fairly common.
  
• "do not pay a subscription to LIVE or PLUS just to play the game!" Also fairly common.
  
• do you get regular updates?
  
• do you get free content every 3 months?

The last two are not common for games that don't require a subscription. However, it's worth pointing out that MWO in 2012 was not as polished as many other $60 dollar games. So the comparison is a bit inappropriate in that regard, because our regular updates and free content are giving us stuff that we would expect to get from version 1.0 of other $60 games. It's hard to imagine right now, because we've been involved in the game so long, but I think a lot of Founders actually expected to see CW ready by the time of release. And I don't mean in its current Beta state, I mean as a finished feature. But over time, we all started accepting that it would take PGI years to get CW out of Beta.

Another issue that has been brought up is modding. From completely free games like Open Transport Tycoon (~20 year old multiplayer game still going strong) to $60 dollar games like Skyrim and Fallout 3, to P2W games like Star Citizen where players can spend thousands of dollars... there are so many games that encourage modding. When a game like MWO prevents modding and private servers, then they better damn well release regular content to keep people interested. Which sounds entitled, but it basically means "Someone needs to release new stuff to keep this game alive. I don't care if it's the devs or the players."

[Mister Blastman]

Mitsuragi, on 23 April 2015 - 06:40 AM, said:

Seriously people, you aren't buying a board game. Why do you keep comparing MW:O to a $60 purchase?

How many of those $60 purchases

• do you play continuously for 3 years? (with 2 more on the way...)
  
• do you play with multiple people whenever you want?
  
• do not pay a subscription to LIVE or PLUS just to play the game!
  
• do you get regular updates?
  
• do you get free content every 3 months?

I mean really, MW:O is not a stand alone game you bought for $60 at Wal-Mart. If that's the only way you can think of things your seriously going to have a hard time in life.





PS: paying for an internet connection is a vested cost. You'd need that regardless for any PS/Xbox multiplayer game, and if not see every other point.

I'm glad you asked!

Team Fortress 2: I paid 45 bucks for the Orange Box (or whatever it was), which means TF 2 cost me 15 bucks. According to my Steam account, I have over 1600 hours logged in that game. I stopped playing it about three years ago. I played it competitively at the highest levels for five years prior to that.

StarCraft: I paid 60 bucks for that. I won the 2v2 ladder in it. I played the living snot out of it. I remember spending 16 hours a day on the weekends in college playing. I think I played it competitively for three to four years. It also had a complete three race, 30 mission campaign offline with cutscenes, plot, dialogue and more! Later an expansion pack was released for around 30 - 40 bucks that included once again a full single player experience along with online content, maps, etc.

Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries: I paid 50 - 60 bucks for it. I played it for at least a few years online back in 1996-1998. I spent WAY MORE TIME in it than I did MWO. It also had a complete single-player experience offline with cutscenes, plot, dialogue, strategy, etc.

Those are just a few... But... let's go farther back... way farther...

Ultima Underworld 2: I think I paid 40 bucks or so for it. I'm doing another playthrough of it right now after about 23 years.
Morrowind: I did a fresh playthrough of it again last year.
Thexder 2: Firehawk: Heaven knows how much time I've put into that little gem from 1990. I bought it new in the box back in the day, have no idea what I paid (probably 30 - 35 bucks), but I've played the ever loving crap out of it since then. Plus, as a bonus, it has 'mecha in it--that transforms! Into a robot... and a plane!

I'll stop there. I think you can see where this is going.

As you can see, there are OBVIOUS REASONS why we compare it with a $60.00 purchase, because the examples I listed above make this QUITE CLEAR.

In fact, the above examples included more content--for more content for sixty dollars than MWO has provided. And more variety, depth, gameplay, etc. Team Fortress 2 and StarCraft, for example, allow users to make their own maps--and host their own servers!

Entire gaming leagues are/were based around them with thousands upon thousands of players duking it out (or did). I'm sure you have heard of both of them one way or another. All for a small purchase.

I can name a lot more. Thanks for asking!

Edit: Aw heck. I love Thexder 2 so much I'll post up a link to a recent stream I made of it. Proof I still play a game I bought back in 1990, 25 years later, to this day! (I recorded it a few days ago) It was a really good run, if I say so myself (minus a few controller issues right at the start). Almost beat it... almost. Fullscreen 1080p HD mode to see all the little special CRT details.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 23 April 2015 - 07:39 AM.

[Mechteric]

Some people still play Unreal Tournament from 10 years ago, it really has less to do with the game and more to do with the person who experiences the game and chooses to continue with it. There are plenty of people who are plenty happy playing MWO every day for hours still, and good for them.

I wish I could be one of them, but I can't because of issues I perceive with the game that make me get tired of the game after only an hour or so of play every few days.

[Dolph Hoskins]

Mitsuragi, on 23 April 2015 - 06:55 AM, said:

If you want us to stop supporting the game so it collapses... I'm sure we can come to an arrangement

Nah nah you're good...I said nothing of the like.

Permission to carry on with unbridled spending granted.

[Lily from animove]

El Bandito, on 23 April 2015 - 06:48 AM, said:

Medieval 2: Total War. Bought in 2007. Still playing it, single-player AND multi-player. Modding is awesome.

Team Fortress 2. Paid only 5 bucks to get all I need. Played it longer than MWO, and enjoyed it longer. Crafted everything I needed. F2P game does not have to be a pure cash grabber to be successful.

TF 2 is not an mmo, its not even "online" its played on dedicated servers made by players.
so this is quite a not s good comparison to a f2p MMO.
But hey I even still play games like TTD, HoMM3, rarely the settlers. Tons of good old games from the past. Master of Orion 2, M&M 6 and 7, Wizardry 8 some have a place in my desk still today.
And then, there is Clonk 4 and Morrorwind where I spent loads of time for a loooooong time. No idea about Morrorwind, but in Clonk 4 I racked up more than 11k hours. and that game was what 20DM so around 10€.


But times changed and the fact of having an online server is making games a lot more expensive. On online games I probably payed the most for WoW, which i played for like 3 years. back in 2010 or earlier.
played WAR quite a lot as well, but it sadly lived too short.
Spend a lot time in APB 2.8khrs +.

I love sandbox games when I look at my steam library I often think: wow I played that game that long compared to this game? didn't felt like that.

[Mister Blastman]

Lily from animove, on 23 April 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

TF 2 is not an mmo, its not even "online" its played on dedicated servers made by players.
so this is quite a not s good comparison to a f2p MMO.

Say what? Out of anything I think TF 2 comes the closest. It has lots of similarities.

a. Team based gameplay (12v12)
b. Different classes (mechs)
c. Switchable equipment
d. Objective-based gameplay (capture the point or kill the other team)
e. A time limit
f. League play
g. A dedicated playerbase

Lily from animove, on 23 April 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

But times changed

Times don't change. Life hasn't changed since the dawn of time. The four precepts of organic life has never changed. I just see this reason used to justify something other people don't like.

[Koniks]

Mister Blastman's post is the spot on answer to the OP. The business models used to generate revenue have changed over time. We've gone from buy the whole game, to pay a subscription for the game, to freemium, with stops along the way like pre-orders, DLC, and crowdfunding. Some of them are more exploitative others.

But table top games aren't entirely different. Not all of them are complete in box and that's it. Some offer additional game pieces or expansions. But that's not new, either. And were probably part of the inspiration for the video game models.

[Apnu]

Most of the games mentioned here look back to a different age of gaming. TF2, Starcraft, etc. They are all developed for years by companies with good capital before launch (or many years as a free mod in Team Fortress' case). Both Valve and Blizzard are famous for taking many years to develop a title. How long did we wait between Half-Life and Half-Life 2? How long did we wait between Diablo, Diablo 2 and Diablo 3? Starcraft is even worse. The upside is these titles are so good, they have replay-ability. I lost count of the times I went through the HL and HL2 SP campaign. Its like re-reading a favorite book.

Most games, today, don't come from that world. They generally fit into one of three buckets: AAA titles with a hundred million US dollar budget and enough coders to make a complete game for $60 in a year. Or AAA titles with a few million dollar budget, smaller staff and 2+ years of development. Or less than AAA titles with small budgets that follow the F2P model so they can finance development as they go, or they recycle previous games and produce the same thing (the Apple AppStore is filled with those games, also every NHL, NFL, NBA EA game).

The F2P model allows a game company to make a basic game and fund further development. Its like being on a different planet from the old ways of making games.

Then there's the AAA titles that have millions of dollars for a game's budget but still release an incomplete game and provide the rest behind a DLC paywall. (I'm looking at you Destiny, Titanfall)

Its sad to say the least. There's only a few titles left standing that release a complete game at launch. Elder Scrolls is one. But gone are the days of Baulders Gate/Neverwinter Nights or Knights of the Old Republic type game depth being the norm.

Id started it with Quake 3 Arena, after getting burned by Q2's lack of multiplayer. All that hype and excitement for a game that had like 10 maps and two modes at launch. From that release on, games increasingly became minimal content, straight to multi-player, affairs. Unreal Tournament, great game, but really geared towards multiplayer, even the SP experience is just the multi-player maps but with stupid bots.

Sometimes interesting and great games came out of that model, Counter Strike (which has its own unique history), Left 4 Dead and so on. (The HL engine rocks)

[Almond Brown]

El Bandito, on 23 April 2015 - 06:48 AM, said:

Medieval 2: Total War. Bought in 2007. Still playing it, single-player AND multi-player. Modding is awesome.

Team Fortress 2. Paid only 5 bucks to get all I need. Played it longer than MWO, and enjoyed it longer. Crafted everything I needed. F2P game does not have to be a pure cash grabber to be successful.

And it is entirely possible that when MWO, as a F2P game, reaches 8-10 years old, it too may be enjoyed for a mere $5.00.

Which, ironically, is $5.00 dollars more than it costs to play MWO today.

So Touche' indeed.

Edited by Almond Brown, 23 April 2015 - 10:16 AM.

[Barantor]

World of Tanks
Lord of the Rings Online
Everquest 1

I have a few friends who play Star Trek Online and Neverwinter Nights since they have existed.

I want MWO to be good, but I won't support them financially when they make bad decisions.

[Gut]

http://mwomercs.com/...-pricing-model/

They need to make this game good enough that I would recommend someone put time into it. I do not, currently. They lose potentially hundreds of dollars because of it, just from my perception

[Koniks]

"Hundreds of dollars" isn't going to be enough to change an approach. Hundreds of dollars per player and thousands of players would, though. But that's the kind of thing they'd need market research to decide. Given how often we're surveyed with scientific measures, rather than polled in the forums, feedback threads, and Twitter that doesn't seem like part of the plan.

[Gut]

Yes, but multiply myself by a large percentage of the current player base. I doubt many people go tell their friends to go play this game because of what it is.

[Triordinant]

I don't have much to add to the discussion that hasn't already been said, BUT since we're going down memory lane...

1999 was a banner year for me. That year they released two games that I still play to this day: Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, which is considered by some to still be the pinnacle of the Civilization franchise even in the face of Civ V and Beyond Earth; and Jagged Alliance 2 which has been modded so well by its dedicated community over the past 15 years that it's still great and very replayable.

1999 was also the year Counter-Strike first appeared along with Unreal Tournament, Medal of Honor and Quake III, but I haven't played them in a while...