41 replies to this topic

[Telmasa]

So the logic in this thread is that lightrushes are fine, because the Streakcrow (which, by extension, just really means mass streak-6 boating) is OP as hell.

One part of the game being broken managing to counter another part of the game being broken, does not mean the game is suddenly not broken anymore. Both things need fixing.

Edited by Telmasa, 23 April 2015 - 08:47 PM.

[Widowmaker1981]

You dont see it much because:

1) Only IS have lights that can rush, and clans have SSRM6 boats.
2) You gain next to no rewards for winning like that
3) There are no tangible benefits to owning planets whatsoever.

Shooting legs on lights is easy enough if they are brawling with you/running in a straight line. When they evade and use cover and just try to get past you, its incredibly difficult to stop more than 3 or 4 out of 12 before they are past you and gone, and the DPS of 8 lights will kill O-Gens instantly.

Right now, its not a big problem, but if/when owning planets gives meaningful rewards, and Clans get a 142kph ECM jumping light, it will be a gigantic problem. And the solution is to add a conquest style cap point system, either as a replacement to the O-Gens or in addition to them.

[pbiggz]

Telmasa, on 23 April 2015 - 08:47 PM, said:

So the logic in this thread is that lightrushes are fine, because the Streakcrow (which, by extension, just really means mass streak-6 boating) is OP as hell.

One part of the game being broken managing to counter another part of the game being broken, does not mean the game is suddenly not broken anymore. Both things need fixing.

Where did i say that? I said streak crows are good at killing lights. They aren't broken at killing lights. I don't know if you noticed but they're the most inefficient killing machines in common use now. That's why they're so profitable. You get massive damage numbers because you hit so many components you dont need to hit in order to get the kill. It just doesn't matter as much on lights, because they're fragile, as they should be.

Streak crows are dangerous if you ignore them, but easy to counter. You get out of their effective range and they're useless, because they have no backup weaponry.

And I already said the better way to kill lights is to learn to leg them with conventional weapons (not streaks).

Carpenocturn, on 23 April 2015 - 04:42 PM, said:

Indeed, I should remember. Everytime I bring a Streakcrow they are using a light rush. And whenever they are using a light rush I am in my streakcrow.
Because it displays what mechs they are taking before each wave.

I have fired 7 Mpulse from a T-bolt into a Ravens leg, 2 nights ago, both of us stationary at less than 100m and it turned the armor yellow. Hitreg is far more powerful than legitimate tactics.

If you have bad hit reg, that's probably got something to do with your ping. Its your problem, not mine, and I'll not stand by while the likes of you whispers sweet nothings into russ bullock's ear just to turn the game into an amorphous pile of sameness so that your bad ping wont make it too hard to win.

Oh, and if you have good ping, but think hit reg is still bad, the answer to that is to fix hit reg, not completely destroy the rest of the game.

Edited by pbiggz, 24 April 2015 - 09:45 AM.

[Mystere]

Carpenocturn, on 23 April 2015 - 04:42 PM, said:

I have fired 7 Mpulse from a T-bolt into a Ravens leg, 2 nights ago, both of us stationary at less than 100m and it turned the armor yellow. Hitreg is far more powerful than legitimate tactics.

Then the most logical course of action is to fix hit registration, not "fix" something else.

[Telmasa]

pbiggz, on 24 April 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

Where did i say that? I said streak crows are good at killing lights. They aren't broken at killing lights. I don't know if you noticed but they're the most inefficient killing machines in common use now. That's why they're so profitable. You get massive damage numbers because you hit so many components you dont need to hit in order to get the kill. It just doesn't matter as much on lights, because they're fragile, as they should be. Streak crows are dangerous if you ignore them, but easy to counter. You get out of their effective range and they're useless, because they have no backup weaponry. And I already said the better way to kill lights is to learn to leg them with conventional weapons (not streaks). If you have bad hit reg, that's probably got something to do with your ping. Its your problem, not mine, and I'll not stand by while the likes of you whispers sweet nothings into russ bullock's ear just to turn the game into an amorphous pile of sameness so that your bad ping wont make it too hard to win. Oh, and if you have good ping, but think hit reg is still bad, the answer to that is to fix hit reg, not completely destroy the rest of the game.

Massive damage that always hits, 360-400m range (depending on your modules), extremely easy to aim...plus nobody is forcing you to never bring backup weaponry along with it.

There is no light or medium mech I've seen that has survived more than two, sometimes three volleys from a streak-boat. Oftentimes I even see heavies get obliterated by the things. And alot of it has to do with the range. If it were locked to 270m max range like all other SRMs, you'd have a far harder time chewing up mech after mech with never-missing alphas.

Wanting the game to be assymetrically balanced does not mean "turn[ing] the game into an amorphous pile of sameness", that's absurd.

Sure, fixing hitreg would be nice...weapons being balanced would be nice too.

Again, for the umpteenth time, the only real reason the "elite four" gets so much hate and tears is thanks to the CERML and Streak-6 being too powerful & easily boatable. Touch both weapons with the nerf hammer - just a bit - and I guarantee you, the "doom crow" and "timbergod" tears will try up in a flash.

[pbiggz]

Telmasa, on 24 April 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

Massive damage that always hits, 360-400m range (depending on your modules), extremely easy to aim...plus nobody is forcing you to never bring backup weaponry along with it.

There is no light or medium mech I've seen that has survived more than two, sometimes three volleys from a streak-boat. Oftentimes I even see heavies get obliterated by the things. And alot of it has to do with the range. If it were locked to 270m max range like all other SRMs, you'd have a far harder time chewing up mech after mech with never-missing alphas.

Wanting the game to be assymetrically balanced does not mean "turn[ing] the game into an amorphous pile of sameness", that's absurd.

Sure, fixing hitreg would be nice...weapons being balanced would be nice too.

Again, for the umpteenth time, the only real reason the "elite four" gets so much hate and tears is thanks to the CERML and Streak-6 being too powerful & easily boatable. Touch both weapons with the nerf hammer - just a bit - and I guarantee you, the "doom crow" and "timbergod" tears will try up in a flash.

dude... doomcrows and timbergods all have large pulse lasers and er medium lasers. Streaks weren't considered part of that equation.

[Stickjock]

A reminder to keep it on topic and constructive.

[Summon3r]

OP just out of curiousity are you guys kurita/IS loyalists? if so have you had the frustration of the firestarter jenner spider rush? it isnt as easy as just shooting legs or bringing streaks boats (as u dont know when light rush comes) granted in a group it is much easier to deal with the light rush. still the fact remains light rush insta mows a pug drop game over thus pissing people off and pushing more away from an already anemic CW population.... any half way decent 12 man can light rush any good 12 man and get omega atleast half way down, at that point its basically over.

this topic will be inetersting when the arctic cheetah drops.

PS increasing gens and omega HP doesnt mean they mean more then they already do. they are ridiculous objectives in a very monotonous CW mode. fingers crossed its a beta issue.

Edited by Summon3r, 27 April 2015 - 08:22 AM.

[Kain Demos]

Telmasa, on 23 April 2015 - 08:47 PM, said:

So the logic in this thread is that lightrushes are fine, because the Streakcrow (which, by extension, just really means mass streak-6 boating) is OP as hell.

One part of the game being broken managing to counter another part of the game being broken, does not mean the game is suddenly not broken anymore. Both things need fixing.

Streaks can never be OP with the way they spread damage all over a 'mech.

It is a paper-rock-scissors build where the streak crow is scissors and anything under 45 tons is paper, 50-55 is scissors as well and anything 60 and up is a rock.

[pbiggz]

Summon3r, on 27 April 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

OP just out of curiousity are you guys kurita/IS loyalists? if so have you had the frustration of the firestarter jenner spider rush? it isnt as easy as just shooting legs or bringing streaks boats (as u dont know when light rush comes) granted in a group it is much easier to deal with the light rush. still the fact remains light rush insta mows a pug drop game over thus pissing people off and pushing more away from an already anemic CW population.... any half way decent 12 man can light rush any good 12 man and get omega atleast half way down, at that point its basically over.

this topic will be inetersting when the arctic cheetah drops.

PS increasing gens and omega HP doesnt mean they mean more then they already do. they are ridiculous objectives in a very monotonous CW mode. fingers crossed its a beta issue.

We're mercs, so we jump between Kurita and Clan Smoke Jaguar/Clan Jade Falcon.

Never once in our time in the clans did someone successfully light rush us. If any lights got by the wall of direct fire to their legs that we flung at them, they were immediately cut down by the one or two streak crows we had. You never needed more than that.

And no doubt, once the cheetah comes out, some clan units will likely start spamming clan light rushes. While that might work well against pugs, (or certain davion units), it wont work well against anyone who has direct fire weaponry, because the arctic cheetah is still 30 tonnes, and those legs will crack easy.

Edited by pbiggz, 27 April 2015 - 09:43 AM.

[Telmasa]

Kain Thul, on 27 April 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

Streaks can never be OP with the way they spread damage all over a 'mech.

It is a paper-rock-scissors build where the streak crow is scissors and anything under 45 tons is paper, 50-55 is scissors as well and anything 60 and up is a rock.

Rock-paper-scissors is a terrible game. There's a reason it's never been made into a widespread competitive game or sport, dude. Even Starcraft, which gets kinda close, introduces all sorts of varying elements to balance and counter-balance and keep things from being so clear-cut, dry, and boring.

[pbiggz]

Telmasa, on 27 April 2015 - 04:43 PM, said:

Rock-paper-scissors is a terrible game. There's a reason it's never been made into a widespread competitive game or sport, dude. Even Starcraft, which gets kinda close, introduces all sorts of varying elements to balance and counter-balance and keep things from being so clear-cut, dry, and boring.

Rock Paper Scissors is a game people play with their hands that he's using to make his point more easy to understand. Good try though. Come back when you have a real counter-argument.

[Telmasa]

pbiggz, on 27 April 2015 - 08:06 PM, said:

Rock Paper Scissors is a game people play with their hands that he's using to make his point more easy to understand. Good try though. Come back when you have a real counter-argument.

I did make a real counter-argument. If you refuse to see and read and do your own inferring, that's not something I can fix.

[Knightcrawler]

It's not useless. But it's not unstoppable. Backs to the walls, focus fire on the weakest legs, if someone has streaks take out the ECM mechs first, hold your fire until you have a good shot, and - to that point - don't move around too much if you're in a heavy or assault. It *is* pretty hard to stop when defending the orbital cannon, but this isn't a thing in this competition.

Edited by Knightcrawler, 27 April 2015 - 10:34 PM.

[Tasker]

Actually, light rush is dumb and boring and right now too effective vs IS teams.

In ideal world, would not be problem. But here are reasons why is problem in practice:

1. CW maps run like ****. Hard to leg fast moving target 100% of time when frame rate choke and die under 20 for large percentage of group very constantly.

2. Sulfurous Rift. LOL. Three base entrance spread out, with very short area to cross to reach generators, and map is very hot so defenders actually limited by heat on how quickly can leg mech.


Is boring and stupid. Force team to hold area for X seconds after destroy Omega. Problem solved.

Also, Streak Crow is broken. Stupid crutch mech for garbage player. 60 damage alpha strike at 400 meter effective range on mech that go 107kph and does not need aim at all. Is reason why garbage clan units bring 36 crow to match when know they will be facing NKVA. Still not win, but at least keep score within 30 point. Ha Ha.

[Hotthedd]

Light rushes stink, but they are a by-product of an unimagimative game mode.
You cannot blame players for exploiting that weakness.

My own personal problem with them is something I haven't seen anyone else address. My frame rate goes to hell during a 12 man light rush.

I'm not complaining, mind you, I deal with it. But it is probably an issue for lots of players, right?

[AlmightyAeng]

Telmasa, on 27 April 2015 - 10:09 PM, said:

I did make a real counter-argument. If you refuse to see and read and do your own inferring, that's not something I can fix.

Tel, this game has been based on a rock-paper-scissor mechanic since its inception. It's not going to change.

You might as well just throw your hands into the air and yell "EVERYTHING IS TERRIBLE." What constructive criticism do you have that ACTUALLY has a chance of being implemented?

Edited by Ghost Badger, 28 April 2015 - 07:07 AM.

[Mystere]

Tasker, on 28 April 2015 - 06:55 AM, said:

Actually, light rush is dumb and boring and right now too effective vs IS teams.

And yet NS and other Kurita units seem to do it so often it's already predictable.

Hotthedd, on 28 April 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

Light rushes stink, but they are a by-product of an unimagimative game mode.
You cannot blame players for exploiting that weakness.

My own personal problem with them is something I haven't seen anyone else address. My frame rate goes to hell during a 12 man light rush.

I'm not complaining, mind you, I deal with it. But it is probably an issue for lots of players, right?

I actually don't think it stinks. I see it as a tactic as valid as any other, and which everyone needs to learn to counter. This is now even more relevant because the Clans will soon be getting the Arctic Cheetah.

[AlmightyAeng]

Telmasa, on 24 April 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

There is no light or medium mech I've seen that has survived more than two, sometimes three volleys from a streak-boat. Oftentimes I even see heavies get obliterated by the things. And alot of it has to do with the range. If it were locked to 270m max range like all other SRMs, you'd have a far harder time chewing up mech after mech with never-missing alphas.

I've seen lights take up to 5 alphas sometimes, depending on the RNG. Unless that medium is an IS with an XL and an open side torso, no, it's not an instant two-kill hit.

Heavies? No fear? Assaults? Less than.

Your anecdotal experience differs entirely from mine.

Streak-crows are scary to IS lights with XL's and severely damaged mechs. That's it.

[Leaky Walnut]

There are several valid reasons to do a light rush and in our units experience, they actually improve the game.
Taking down the O-gens with a light rush means you can then focus on the enemy team, brawling it out and having a good slug enjoyed by everyone.
Taking lights on counterattack lets you chew up the enemy by wolfpacking them and lets you pick heavier mechs for the resulting waves.

Countering light rushes is pretty doable, but you need to prepare.
for the clans that means streak boats
for the IS that means pulse lasers and since everyone owns a TDR-5SS by now, that should be easy.

Like deathballing, sniping, attrition and holding an enemy spawn, they're valid tactics which all have counters.
Of course, the smart commander will devise a tactic that the enemy has to counter, instead of countering theirs, since then you're just playing to the enemies strengths