78 replies to this topic

[AlmightyAeng]

Lightfoot, on 25 April 2015 - 10:57 AM, said:

It just seems the Inner Sphere Mechs are so much more adaptable to having some Fun.

What's fun? Is fun messing around? Or is fun winning?

You can mess around in ANY mech, Clan or IS.

You can also reliably WIN as either Clan or IS...if you choose the right mechs.

Most people are carrying hard in Adders and Summoners...just like most people aren't carrying hard in Commandos and Catapults.

[MechB Kotare]

QuantumButler, on 27 April 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

The summoner was pretty crap in TT too.

Not really. Its only weakness was weak armor.

And please dont go TT on me. This game is far from TT. Its IS counterpart (CTF) is awesome mech, especially because of new quirks (Jam Chance -3%, Balistic cooldown 10%....) Stripable JJs Endo engine management... Summoner got what...? 1% to cERLL laser duration? Or maybe even 3% speed increase? Watch it! Its useless but it can run 94kmh!

Edited by MechB Kotare, 27 April 2015 - 09:32 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Power level:

I can't see any reasonable argument that clan tech is weaker than IS tech. There are good and bad mechs in both IS and clan. The best mechs in the game are clan mechs, and the worst are IS mechs, but there are some contenders on both the high and low end in that regard. It's not much use to look at it as a faction based problem, all mechs in the game should preferably be useful (in competition and high end CW/group que), and that isn't the case yet. I don't like some of the balance methods used, nor do I like that there are bad mechs on both sides, but it takes some serious hyperbole to complain about clans as a faction when all but one tier 1 comp mechs are clan.

Customisation:

There seems to be this idea that IS mechs are more customisable, but does that idea really survive scrutiny? Most clan mechs can be refitted to fulfill a number of different roles on the battlefield, my stormcrows, timbers and kit fox can all choose between LRM builds, laser vom, gauss vom (minus KF), streakboat, srm brawler, srm/laser hybrid brawler, sniper, etc etc. That is enormous diversity for a single mech. I can't think of a single IS mech that is so versatile, so customisable. It seems that sometimes the claim of superior customisability rests on the fallacy of comparing a single clan mech to all the variants of an IS chassis? But even then there are many IS chassis with far less total diversity even between the variants than a single clan mech. Griffins for example, great mech but even with all the chassis you get exactly 2 roles to play effectively, laser vom on the hero and SRM brawler on the rest, compared to the stormcrow which can do a tremendous number of different things on a single mech.

Of course there is a kind of freedom in engine/upgrade/JJ switching, but I really don't feel that it outweighs having omnipods in most cases. It is two different kinds of customisation, the IS can turn the nob between speed and firepower, while the clan can't change the firepower but can choose entirely different kinds of weaponry and role on the battlefield. But in both cases you usually end up with a narrow selection of strong builds. Just like there are some omnipod combos that dominates there are some engines almost always used on any given IS chassis. All in all the argument about clan mechs lacking in customisation simply doesn't hold water.

Price:

This i expect is the real kicker that stops more people from playing clans in CW. You can't compete without 240 tons of fully elited clan tech, and that means up to 720 tons of mechs to buy at a significantly higher price than IS, plus modules and so on. You can get away cheaper with a deck of 4 stormcrows, and arguably that is the cheapest comp level dropdeck in the game, but that's pretty damn boring for most people, especially for new players who want to explore the game. They probably won't start out deciding to focus on a single chassis for that long.

Compare to IS where there are significantly cheaper alternatives and mechs that rely more on quirks than elite skills, plus a few trial mechs that are actually CW usable in some scenarios (for example light rushes can still be done ok with trials)

Looks and personality

And this is why I personally don't play my clan mechs that much, and why i don't play clan in CW. I do a lot better in my meta clan mechs, but in my eyes they look really ugly, like plastic toys, and have zero personality. And the lore behind them isn't much more attractive either. The IS mechs on the other hand are either adorable (like the urbie), ugly in a cool steampunky war industry kinda way (like the atlas), or downright sexy (like the King crab).

No gameplay advantage in the world can make me disregard that.

[QuantumButler]

MechB Kotare, on 27 April 2015 - 09:30 AM, said:

Not really. Its only weakness was weak armor.

And please dont go TT on me. This game is far from TT. Its IS counterpart (CTF) is awesome mech, especially because of new quirks (Jam Chance -3%, Balistic cooldown 10%....) Stripable JJs Endo engine management... Summoner got what...? 1% to cERLL laser duration? Or maybe even 3% speed increase? Watch it! Its useless but it can run 94kmh (i think)

Look, the point is the Summoner was always going to be a pile of scrap compared to Hellbringers, Stormcrows, or Timberwolves.

[Joseph Mallan]

MechB Kotare, on 27 April 2015 - 09:30 AM, said:

Not really. Its only weakness was weak armor.

And please dont go TT on me. This game is far from TT. Its IS counterpart (CTF) is awesome mech, especially because of new quirks (Jam Chance -3%, Balistic cooldown 10%....) Stripable JJs Endo engine management... Summoner got what...? 1% to cERLL laser duration? Or maybe even 3% speed increase? Watch it! Its useless but it can run 94kmh (i think)

It also didn't have a large amount of tonnage/space for weapons either. The Summoner never impressed me on TT, so if you are having a similar experience here... I'd say there is a comparison to be made.

Ghost Badger, on 27 April 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

What's fun? Is fun messing around? Or is fun winning?

You can mess around in ANY mech, Clan or IS.

You can also reliably WIN as either Clan or IS...if you choose the right mechs.

Most people are carrying hard in Adders and Summoners...just like most people aren't carrying hard in Commandos and Catapults.

Oh dear god! Me in a Commando!

[MechB Kotare]

QuantumButler, on 27 April 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

Look, the point is the Summoner was always going to be a pile of scrap compared to Hellbringers, Stormcrows, or Timberwolves.

If the point was to make totally useless 70t mech compared to its big heavy bro Timby and its counterpart CTF, then yes. It was always going to be.

[Black Ivan]

When it comes to Clan Mechs best for winning only a very limited number really fit in: Madcat, Maddog, Stormcrow, Daishi, Hellbringer and perhaps the Kitfox. The other CLan Mechs either medicore or bad for CW. Omnipods can't balance out that the IS Mechs are highly overquirked now.

[Gyrok]

Ghost Badger, on 27 April 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

What's fun? Is fun messing around? Or is fun winning?

You can mess around in ANY mech, Clan or IS.

You can also reliably WIN as either Clan or IS...if you choose the right mechs.

Most people are carrying hard in Adders and Summoners...just like most people aren't carrying hard in Commandos and Catapults.

I will give you catapults there; however, the few guys still running commandos tend to carry extremely hard in them...lol.

[Mr Ezzquizo]

ER Large Laser Clan sucks!!!!

[Dino Might]

ezzquizo, on 27 April 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

ER Large Laser Clan sucks!!!!

Less well-known than even Ice Hellion and Fire Mandrill, Clan ERLL was the red headed step child of the initial clan invasion, mostly forgotten because of its stupid devotion to a rather unimpressive weapon with an unintimidating light blue beam.

[QuantumButler]

MechB Kotare, on 27 April 2015 - 09:35 AM, said:

If the point was to make totally useless 70t mech compared to its big heavy bro Timby and its counterpart CTF, then yes. It was always going to be.

But the thing is if you combine clan guns on mechs that don't have terrible hardpoint selections or hitboxes [like the summoner], then these god robots handily outclass even the best IS godbots.

IS has plenty of completely iredeemable clunkers too. Clantech as a whole is clearly superior to IS stuff, but many chassis' have been overnerfed or just poorly designed while leaving the god machines fully intact.

Edited by QuantumButler, 27 April 2015 - 11:23 AM.

[Water Bear]

Here's how I interpreted this thread title. "Clan mechs aren't interesting enough to play if they're not OP ."

[Quicksilver Aberration]

QuantumButler, on 27 April 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

Look, the point is the Summoner was always going to be a pile of scrap compared to Hellbringers, Stormcrows, or Timberwolves.

compared to Hellbringers....

Hellbringers....

You do realize how bad the Hellbringer was in TT right, ergo one of the worst clan mechs in existence? The fact the Hellbringer is as good as it is currently is proof of how removed from TT this game is and why "well it wasn't good in TT either" is never a good enough reason to NOT buff poor performers.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 27 April 2015 - 11:47 AM.

[Mcgral18]

QuantumButler, on 27 April 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

Look, the point is the Summoner was always going to be a pile of scrap compared to Hellbringers, Stormcrows, or Timberwolves.

Give it Endo (with arbitrary placement) and it has 24.5 tons of pod space; with 1 more DHS than the Loki and 5 tons of HoverJets™.

Give it the M-LT (with a high mounted E hardpoint, same as the Ballistic)

Gauss+35 rounds+5 ERMLs with 18 DHS....hot build, but quasi Timby that jumps better. Timby build has ~20.


Also allows for Gauss (35)+ERPPC(high mounted)+4 ERSLs with 15 DHS


Sounds nice enough; can poke as well as the Timby-A with FLD, with some backup lasers.


Even if you keep the somewhat oversized engine, it can have decent loadouts...if it takes Endo. Contruction rules ruin it, just like every bad Clam.

[Metus regem]

WM Quicksilver, on 27 April 2015 - 11:45 AM, said:

You do realize how bad the Hellbringer was in TT right, ergo one of the worst clan mechs in existence? The fact the Hellbringer is as good as it is currently is proof of how removed from TT this game is and why "well it wasn't good in TT either" is never a good enough reason to NOT buff poor performers.

The Hellbringer, is actually rather good in TT, if and when Zell goes out the window, it really is a mech that is meant to support the Star, with things like ECM, or busting infantry platoons with A-pods and MG's...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Metus regem, on 27 April 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

The Hellbringer, is actually rather good in TT, if and when Zell goes out the window, it really is a mech that is meant to support the Star, with things like ECM, or busting infantry platoons with A-pods and MG's...

Half armor and insanely high BV means it is a terrible mech outside of Zell...just like the Nova Prime and many other bad clan designs (also the Kit Fox). There is a reason almost all leagues surrounding Megamek actually give it some combination of Endo or Ferro for extra armor; especially considering it is almost produced by as many clans as the Mad Dog and Stormcrow.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 27 April 2015 - 02:37 PM.

[Metus regem]

WM Quicksilver, on 27 April 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

Half armor and insanely high BV means it is a terrible mech outside of Zell...just like the Nova Prime and many other bad clan designs (also the Kit Fox). There is a reason almost all leagues surrounding Megamek actually give it some combination of Endo or Ferro for extra armor; especially considering it is almost produced by as many clans as the Mad Dog and Stormcrow.

I keep two in my Supernova for the weekly TT game (I alternate between AFFS and CGB)... I like them, I just don't run them out in front, and or keep them near something far scarier, so they have to pick and chose between targets. Do they live to the end of the game? Almost never, but do they serve as a force multiplier, yep.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Metus regem, on 27 April 2015 - 02:40 PM, said:

I keep two in my Supernova for the weekly TT game (I alternate between AFFS and CGB)... I like them, I just don't run them out in front, and or keep them near something far scarier, so they have to pick and chose between targets. Do they live to the end of the game? Almost never, but do they serve as a force multiplier, yep.

Or you could just run a Dire Wolf Prime for the same BV as a Supernova and run a better mech in place of the Hellbringer, like another Dire Wolf Prime, and get the same effect. Just saying, there are more dangerous mechs than a Hellbringer for the BV that can take a lot more damage before getting crippled.

Usable and optimal are two very different things, and almost anything is usable in TT provided you can spam it.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 27 April 2015 - 02:51 PM.

[Telmasa]

Adiuvo, on 25 April 2015 - 03:33 PM, said:

I mean, you can play what you want, but I guarantee that mech is either too hot or too slow to be of use in situations where you'd actually want an Atlas to begin with.

STD300 engine, not terribly slow. Heat management has only been an issue for me on Terra Therma, and even that I can mitigate by simply practicing a bit with watching the heat spikes per weapon.

Perhaps it is each to his own, I really do not like brawling as opposed to softening up an enemy from further off & only closing to finish it up - and it was the triple SRM builds that I found myself overheating more often, honestly.

Mystere, on 25 April 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

Most people take the easy way out.
It's the rare individual who make a difference. Some were even persecuted or worse executed for being "different".

As I said, history isn't simple. It's a paradox, because in order for history to be explained, it has to be simplified to some degree or another...which always ends up leaving out or skewing things from the full reality of what happened.