59 replies to this topic

[Xetelian]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...53382de06ff4f62

My HBR 2xUAC5 and 2xERLL which is good for 800m and 600m in clan war.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b9b3f1f6bf8c6e6

My other HBR with Gauss and 51 alpha.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4ad59c359bc4182

My last HBR with LBX20 and 56 alpha


Ballistics Lasers Missiles with good high shoulder points and a head laser.

This is the only mech without endo and ff that I think is good.

Edited by Xetelian, 28 April 2015 - 01:11 PM.

[FupDup]

Koniving, on 28 April 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

Had PGI not given excessive amounts of freedom to BattleMechs (the IS mechs), it wouldn't be a problem at all.
But between pinpoint FLD, instant convergence, twist by mouse (as opposed to twist by keyboard), high thresholds, higher than normal heat dissipation (provided you have up to 17 DHS and the elite skill Cool Run and a 250 engine minimum, the +15% to dissipation makes your heatsinks greater than 2.0 per DHS), and triple or greater front loaded damage firing rates, everything relies on that customizability to make the fastest, glitchiest thing possible.

Endo Steel was directly superior to Standard Structure in Tabletop too you know. If you had the spacebucks, you used it. Just like DHS, Clan tech, etc.

It's a problem that MWO inherited, not created. If you forced everyone to go stock all day, you'd just make everybody use the stock builds that were lucky chosen ones to have all the upgrades...just like they already do for the Clans in MWO. There's still best mechs and worst mechs in BT.

The only way to make Endo not superior is to break BT rules and give a situational advantage to using Standard Structure.

Edited by FupDup, 28 April 2015 - 01:18 PM.

[bad arcade kitty]

Dino Might, on 28 April 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

Funny thing is, if they took endo away from Scrow and Timby, they'd actually get more balanced, and then you could have the more global Clan buffs, or *gasp* knock back some of the IS buffs.

Technical readouts are only so important when we're going to strip out everything anyways and optimize the builds as best we can anyways.

how about they forbid those upgrades for stalkers and thunderbolts

[Senor Cataclysmo]

Koniving, on 28 April 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

A fun note: MWO's Shadowhawk is depicted as larger than the height references of Atlases in the years 3015 to 3027. o.O; Ever wondered why the TRO 3025 Atlas head was so huge? For the D-DC it had to be large enough to fit a pilot on either side of the head, each with a viewport through the eyeballs. The typical Atlas, however, has the viewport through the nose.

Am I the only one who thinks the mechs look better bigger? 'Mechs are supposed to be absolutely unstoppable, the ultimate combat vehicles. That tank looks like it'd have no problem with the canon sized shadowhawk and could probably just ram it to knock it over and be done with the whole thing. The cockpit looks so cramped the pilot wouldn't be able to eject properly and the windshield is so tiny he could barely see out of it.

Dont get me wrong, Im not a huge fan of the way the mechs are scaled with each other in MWO. The bloated catapult & kit fox being a couple of the worse offenders, but Im quite happy for them to scale the mechs up with the environment. I mean, if you're going to break the square cube law and have giant robots, at least make them big enough to actually be as intimidating as they're supposed to be...

Edited by Senor Cataclysmo, 28 April 2015 - 01:29 PM.

[Koniving]

Senor Cataclysmo, on 28 April 2015 - 01:22 PM, said:

Am I the only one who thinks the mechs look better bigger? 'Mechs are supposed to be absolutely unstoppable, the ultimate combat vehicles. That tank looks like it'd have no problem with the canon sized shadowhawk and could probably just ram it to knock it over and be done with the whole thing. The cockpit looks so cramped the pilot wouldn't be able to eject properly and the windshield is so tiny he could barely see out of it.

This one tank in this one match, took out 6 out of 8 enemy Enforcers, and 1 Atlas. Its Commando ally was all but worthless.



One thing to remember, not every mech is small. By technicality Jenners are supposed to be around 10 meters tall (taller than the Shadowhawk) with long, skinny legs and a relatively wide but small body. The Commando in MWO is 9.7 meters tall for comparison.

A Centurion is supposed to be pretty tall, as is a Trebuchet, while the Hunchback and Commando are meant to be almost the same height (and both are shorter than 9 meters). So six of one, half a dozen the other. Some mechs are big, some mechs are squat and fat. (Ever noticed how the Hunchback has a drum on the LT -- the same side the stock ammo is on? Ever notice how artwork of the 4SP Hunchback puts that drum on the CT...where the stock ammo is at? It wasn't BIG enough to carry the ammo inside the torso! Its short size is a lot of what helped it in fighting within cities, and at that height 64.8 kph actually required 'running' versus the height it has in MWO which is 13.6 meters tall)

One thing to remember is the "2" series of Shadowhawks are small scout/recon mechs of 55 tons, with heavy weapons and engines and that's about it. They barely have more armor than Locusts. Their height makes sense. The enhanced ones of the 5 series all sport endo steel or ferro armor, and thus would be bigger. Other mechs simply were bigger, with goofy but plausible explanations like different materials used and construction techniques from other planets as well as "corporate secrets."

Of interesting note... This is the MWO Mist Lynx

Notice a problem?
It's about 9.5 meters tall.

Upper left, second mech...

10.8 meters tall here.
o.O;

Far as vehicles against mechs... Emphasis here.

[Stoned Prophet]

K.

[Fate 6]

Mcgral18, on 28 April 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

Contruction gimps the Terribad Clams. It is known.


Give Mr Gargles an XL375 and Endo, he suddenly has 31 tons of weapons; a full 50% more.

Remove 1.5 tons of hardwired equipment on the Myth Lynx, upgrade engine, move 178 Kph with 4 tons of pod space.



Those sound like pretty decent robots...PGI can't have that.

Yeah, the Gargoyle is SO BAD in comparison to the Zeus, Awesome, and Victor right? Wrong. It's still the best 80 ton mech in the game.

[Mcgral18]

Fate 6, on 28 April 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

Yeah, the Gargoyle is SO BAD in comparison to the Zeus, Awesome, and Victor right? Wrong. It's still the best 80 ton mech in the game.

orly?

[Alex Morgaine]

So the midst lynx is to small? Oh man that... Wow. Never thought I'd say a mech needs to be upscaled, even a lil but xD

[Mcgral18]

Frosty Brand, on 28 April 2015 - 04:58 PM, said:

So the midst lynx is to small? Oh man that... Wow. Never thought I'd say a mech needs to be upscaled, even a lil but xD

Ah, but the arms can house another 4 pilots.

[Knight Magus]

Terciel1976, on 28 April 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

Yeah. Hellbringer and Dire Wolf. Both just garbage.

What about the Uller, Koshi, Black Hawk, Fenris, Thor, Puma, Masakari, and Man o War?

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 28 April 2015 - 01:10 PM, said:

Endo Steel was directly superior to Standard Structure in Tabletop too you know. If you had the spacebucks, you used it. Just like DHS, Clan tech, etc.

It's a problem that MWO inherited, not created. If you forced everyone to go stock all day, you'd just make everybody use the stock builds that were lucky chosen ones to have all the upgrades...just like they already do for the Clans in MWO. There's still best mechs and worst mechs in BT.

The only way to make Endo not superior is to break BT rules and give a situational advantage to using Standard Structure.

In tabletop customization rules, you couldn't just "get it". You had to be on specific planets, with access to the factories, with either some repor with the the faction that owns it or at least the company behind it in order to use their factory. It was something that either came with the machine, or you had a bunch of stuff you had to do to get it.

The whole "you'd pack on endo steel if you could thing" only really worked in construction rules as nothing stopped you from doing anything else in "make your own mech city." And that's what we have, make your own 'Mech city with only hardpoints inherited. (Hardpoints is a BT thing as well though rarely used. On Sarna's MRMs and Mech Mortars, there's even references to hardpoint size limits, such as an SRM-6, NARC, LRM-15, and MRM-20, Mortar 4 use the same size 'hardpoint'. LRM-20, Artemis IV, Mortar 8, MRM-30 and MRM-40 use the same hardpoint. SRM-4, SRM-2, MRM-10, and Mortars 1 and 2 use the same size hardpoint).

Far as the lore, endo steel was a 'significantly thicker metal', sometimes adding 'on some chassis up to 2 meters in height and girth combined' over not having it. Ferro? Not quite as punishing, but it made you bulkier as well. In the end, the lore-based punishment is your mech is bigger, larger, girthier, and thus easier to hit. Shame that never got thrown into the rules.

Though yes, on MWO since such things would be expecting too much of the developers and without that, nothing calls any favors for those who don't have endo steel and can't use it.
Edit for emphasis.

Thus, try this on for size. A solution PGI could actually use.

You could use that Endo Steel's space-born construction (in which they fill casings of metal with liquid metal foam or some craziness? I need to find where that is, they explained the whole thing and it's like "...so how come it's not weaker material?") makes it a bit weaker. Even having the same health but allow 30% crit damage to apply as bonus structure damage instead of just 15% would have a drastic effect in how survivable a mech is with and without endo steel. (Hit by AC/20: 1 crit, 20 damage. + 15% = 23 damage against standard structure. Or AC/20 with 1 crit: 20 damage + 30% = 26 damage against endo steel structure) But then PGI would stupidly turn around and quirk up structure again.

(In the next post of mine that you find, I explain this much better.)

Edited by Koniving, 29 April 2015 - 12:07 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Endo Steel was directly superior to Standard Structure in Tabletop too you know

Not always.

Endo Steel is only better than Standard Structure when tonnage is worth more than crit slots. When crit slots are worth more than tonnage then endo steel is no longer worth taking.

For example on assault mechs, crit slots are generally more valuable than tonnage, so most assault mechs dont take endo steel.

Or on a heavy mech with a LFE, sometimes the LFE saves you enough tonnage, that you need the extra crit slots to spend that tonnage, so you use standard structure instead.

Endo is pretty much always preferable on mediums and lights though.

Edited by Khobai, 28 April 2015 - 09:16 PM.

[Shalune]

FupDup, on 28 April 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

The Cauldron-Born will show us what an Endo + FF Hellbringer would be like.

If we hypothetically didn't have customization restrictions on Omnis, the Whale could actually fit Endo and use that tonnage to upgrade the engine, which would offset some of the critslot requirements (move some sinks to the larger engine).


TL;DR: Those mechs aren't powerful because of lacking these tech upgrades, they're powerful in spite of it.

Well duh. But that's how the clans are balanced in this game. You need to work within the restrictions of a given mech.

And you know what? After the Cauldron Born the Hellbringer will still be a great mech. ECM, all torso builds, and better hitboxes than most clan mechs.

[Andi Nagasia]

Shalune, on 28 April 2015 - 09:16 PM, said:

And you know what? After the Cauldron Born the Hellbringer will still be a great mech. ECM, all torso builds, and better hitboxes than most clan mechs.

ya, the problem is most Clan mechs have this problem,

Nova too wide, and weak, but we all know this,
Gargoyle too tall, not enough tonnage, but problems
WarHawk too big, mistaken for a DWF too much

perhaps PGI should allow Clan Mechs to Trade Ferro for Endo,
MDD(8.5Tons of Armor)= -Ferro(-1Ton) +Endo(+3tons)= +2Tons After Switch,
SMN(9.5Tons of Armor)=-Ferro(-1.25Ton) +Endo(+3.5tons)= +2.25Tons After Switch,
GAR(11Tons of Armor)= -Ferro(-1.5Ton) +Endo(+4tons)= +2.5Tons After Switch,
WHK(14Tons of Armor)= -Ferro(-1.75Ton) +Endo(+4tons)= +2.25Tons After Switch,
the 2 Extra Tons Can & Will be Useful for All Ammo Dependent Mech Builds,

Edit- Topic(HERE)

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 28 April 2015 - 09:37 PM.

[Senor Cataclysmo]

Koniving, on 28 April 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

This one tank in this one match, took out 6 out of 8 enemy Enforcers, and 1 Atlas. Its Commando ally was all but worthless.



One thing to remember, not every mech is small. By technicality Jenners are supposed to be around 10 meters tall (taller than the Shadowhawk) with long, skinny legs and a relatively wide but small body. The Commando in MWO is 9.7 meters tall for comparison.

A Centurion is supposed to be pretty tall, as is a Trebuchet, while the Hunchback and Commando are meant to be almost the same height (and both are shorter than 9 meters). So six of one, half a dozen the other. Some mechs are big, some mechs are squat and fat. (Ever noticed how the Hunchback has a drum on the LT -- the same side the stock ammo is on? Ever notice how artwork of the 4SP Hunchback puts that drum on the CT...where the stock ammo is at? It wasn't BIG enough to carry the ammo inside the torso! Its short size is a lot of what helped it in fighting within cities, and at that height 64.8 kph actually required 'running' versus the height it has in MWO which is 13.6 meters tall)

One thing to remember is the "2" series of Shadowhawks are small scout/recon mechs of 55 tons, with heavy weapons and engines and that's about it. They barely have more armor than Locusts. Their height makes sense. The enhanced ones of the 5 series all sport endo steel or ferro armor, and thus would be bigger. Other mechs simply were bigger, with goofy but plausible explanations like different materials used and construction techniques from other planets as well as "corporate secrets."

Of interesting note... This is the MWO Mist Lynx

Notice a problem?
It's about 9.5 meters tall.

Upper left, second mech...

10.8 meters tall here.
o.O;

Far as vehicles against mechs... Emphasis here.

You know, I used to have that TRO somewhere and I'd completely forgotten about that quote. I remembered reading an opposing one somewhere. I think one of the things that annoys me is the internal scale inconsistency in BT sources. I read a novel somewhere that notes Timberwolves as being 10m tall. Theyre 12.6 in the 3050 clan mech picture you posted. Im sure thats not the only instance of that. It's been noted elsewhere that mechs are too light for their size, but even supposing that wasnt the case, they dont seem to scale properly with weight class. If the mechs on that diagram are the right size, I find it very hard to believe the DWF is twice as heavy as the NVA... Or carrying the NVA's weight in weapons alone. I wish the creators of BT had given more thought to scaling. Its such an immersion breaker for me.

the MWO mist lynx model also highlights the problem I have with small mechs: People fitting into them and having a useful amount of window/cockpit space. Im pretty sure I could fit inside a fridge if I took out all of the shelves, but it wouldn't be very comfortable! And IS mechs with a comparable amount of space are supposed to have amenities like fold out toilets, storage space for rations and be able to support warriors for extended missions of several days. Even some spartan clan mechs are supposed to be able to carry a passenger.

[Joseph Mallan]

Thats not a TRO (IIRC) that would be one of the Core rulebooks.

[Felio]

Xetelian, on 28 April 2015 - 01:10 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...53382de06ff4f62

My HBR 2xUAC5 and 2xERLL which is good for 800m and 600m in clan war.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b9b3f1f6bf8c6e6

My other HBR with Gauss and 51 alpha.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4ad59c359bc4182

My last HBR with LBX20 and 56 alpha

Ballistics Lasers Missiles with good high shoulder points and a head laser.

This is the only mech without endo and ff that I think is good.

Plenty of weaponry, but... a 65-ton mech with the armor of a 45-tonner? Any incidental damage to an arm or leg, and it'll get targeted and blown off if anyone is paying attention.

[Almond Brown]

mogs01gt, on 28 April 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

You mean balance right.......

Do you think that 3 tons more would somehow "balance" the Hellbringer? (as per the OP's example)

P.S. Couldn't hurt is not a valid response either becasue it couldn't hurt to just deal with the in place "limit" either.

[Almond Brown]

FupDup, on 28 April 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

The Cauldron-Born will show us what an Endo + FF Hellbringer would be like.

If we hypothetically didn't have customization restrictions on Omnis, the Whale could actually fit Endo and use that tonnage to upgrade the engine, which would offset some of the critslot requirements (move some sinks to the larger engine).


TL;DR: Those mechs aren't powerful because of lacking these tech upgrades, they're powerful in spite of it.

The Hellbringer would gain the use of 4.4t and lose 14 crit slots. One could use ones imagination or Smurfy's to get a pretty good feel either way...

Edited by Almond Brown, 29 April 2015 - 09:14 AM.