119 replies to this topic

[Doktor Schmerz]

This is a simple post that I am sure that many IS pilots can get behind. I will remain very objective in my analysis about the crows. This isn't ranting and raving, hit box mechanics and damage recognition issues are unbalancing community warfare. Clan drop decks exploit the flaws in the stormcrows and their relatively low weight to roll over IS heavy and assault mechs. Utilizing the private match tool me and a friend tested out just how much goes around the crow. It turned out, quite alot, and not just to other areas, the damage just went missing. It was like it never happened. For the record I was using x8 med pulse at near point blank range on various components on the SRC-C trial. I alpha stroked the stormcrow's generic CT three times and the armor was only dark orange afterwards with the core still intact. Let's do the math on the technical maximum output I described:

8x6 = 48
48x3 = 144 maximum damage

let's say I missed 25% of the time 144x0.75 = 108 points of possible damage in

Let's also say the side torsi took 20% each 108x0.6 = 64.8 points of damage direct to CT

According to smurfy that trial SRC-C has 50 points of armor, thus concluding that there is in fact something very wrong with the crows' hitboxes and damage recognition. I should almost be half way through the exposed CT.

The first common counter argument is: There must be damage going other places like legs or something besides just the other torsi.

I've found that most of the time it is not, it just vanishes. But what is more to the point is why is damage going to a place that I am not aiming? Is this not a game of accuracy and skill?

Second common counter argument: Just leg it and treat it like a light.
This is easier said than done. With the legs being thin in profile like the ravens' they can be hard to target. One can add to the thin profile the fact that they are moving very fast making for lots of gaps in concentrated fire. The question is, why do I have to do damage to a non weapon component of such a large mech in the first place? The crow can just shoot me as I work its leg giving it even more of an advantage. The CT should be properly hittable, especially because it’s not even the most protruded part of the mech, the arms are.

Stormcrows have become untenable for most pilots I talk with. IS doesn't want an advantage here, we just want a fair fight. It should be a matter of aiming and skill, not vanishing damage.

[Paigan]

I play Clans-only and yes I am one of those evil people using 3x SCR in my CW dropdeck (laser vomit of course), with the fourth being a TBR (laser vomit as well).
Yes, good, let the hate flow through your veins .

Now what might surprise you:
I, too, think the SCR needs to be "fixed".

The amount of damage I can take in this thing is not normal for a 55t mech.
And I, too, feel the hate when trying to kill an enemy SCR in normal drop games.
This can't be right. Something should be done about it.

Although, if I might humbly add, along with that some other imbalances should be fixed, especially on IS side.
Like:
- quirks that give mechs 200% DPS or even 250% with module (everyone argueing here "but no module gives 50% cooldown" is a [Richard Cameron] and it will be my pleasure to teach you basic math).
- light rushes, ridiculous
- Lostech Stalkers being statswise on par or better than high tech Warhawks. Can't be.
- useless clan ACs
- missing option for most clan mechs to fit JJ (would love to use WHK instead of TBR, but not without JJs)

As long as those things aren't "fixed", I'm very happy with my broken SCRs.

I'm not a clanner wanting to dominate IS. That is sadly something that many IS zealots don't get when I make suggestions in other threads.

Balance is paramount.
But in a proper, authentic, intelligent way.
E.g. by IS having worse tech, but more tactical options (e.g. more consumable modules and types while clans have less or none at all. Like ammo packs, mines, etc.). Or maybe a significantly better drop tonnage (300t vs 240t or so). Or maybe even clans getting punished score-wise for not playing "clan-like".

Such things. Not lowtech being magically quirked up to be better than high tech. That's nonsense.



Edit: You like your own post? Schmerzen...

Edited by CyclonerM, 28 April 2015 - 06:44 AM.
Do not use bad words, thank you

[Insects]

You have to test other mechs too as a control sample.
Hitreg is bad in general, a lot goes missing against all mechs.
Have to assume it happens to everyone equally and its just part of the game.

Perhaps it is even intentional with PGI extending TTK by stealth instead of causing a lore upset by doubling or tripling armor points.... Far more likely it is just flakey net code than tinfoil armor layers.

[Roadbuster]

Paigan, on 27 April 2015 - 04:40 AM, said:

I play Clans-only and yes I am one of those evil people using 3x SCR in my CW dropdeck (laser vomit of course), with the fourth being a TBR (laser vomit as well).
Yes, good, let the hate flow through your veins .

Now what might surprise you:
I, too, think the SCR needs to be "fixed".

The amount of damage I can take in this thing is not normal for a 55t mech.
And I, too, feel the hate when trying to kill an enemy SCR in normal drop games.
This can't be right. Something should be done about it.

Although, if I might humbly add, along with that some other imbalances should be fixed, especially on IS side.
Like:
- quirks that give mechs 200% DPS or even 250% with module (everyone argueing here "but no module gives 50% cooldown" is a moron and it will be my pleasure to teach you basic math).
- light rushes, ridiculous
- Lostech Stalkers being statswise on par or better than high tech Warhawks. Can't be.
- useless clan ACs
- missing option for most clan mechs to fit JJ (would love to use WHK instead of TBR, but not without JJs)

As long as those things aren't "fixed", I'm very happy with my broken SCRs.

I'm not a clanner wanting to dominate IS. That is sadly something that many IS zealots don't get when I make suggestions in other threads.

Balance is paramount.
But in a proper, authentic, intelligent way.
E.g. by IS having worse tech, but more tactical options (e.g. more consumable modules and types while clans have less or none at all. Like ammo packs, mines, etc.). Or maybe a significantly better drop tonnage (300t vs 240t or so). Or maybe even clans getting punished score-wise for not playing "clan-like".

Such things. Not lowtech being magically quirked up to be better than high tech. That's nonsense.



Edit: You like your own post? Schmerzen...

Erm...what he said ^

[Ultimax]

There is nothing to fix.

They have excellent hitboxes.

We should be so lucky to have more mechs with excellent hitboxes, not less

Edited by Ultimatum X, 27 April 2015 - 05:28 AM.

[Paigan]

Ultimatum X, on 27 April 2015 - 05:28 AM, said:

There is nothing to fix.

They have excellent hitboxes.

We should be so lucky to have more mechs with excellent hitboxes, not less

If that is so, maybe all (many) other mechs ned to have their hitboxes improved.

However, don't you find it a little odd that you can pump alpha after alpha directly into the SCR's nose and it still runs around fully functional, where most heaver mechs would be long dead?
I think that's strange...

Edited by Paigan, 27 April 2015 - 05:43 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Paigan, on 27 April 2015 - 04:40 AM, said:

.
.
.

Balance is paramount.
But in a proper, authentic, intelligent way.
E.g. by IS having worse tech, but more tactical options (e.g. more consumable modules and types while clans have less or none at all. Like ammo packs, mines, etc.). Or maybe a significantly better drop tonnage (300t vs 240t or so). Or maybe even clans getting punished score-wise for not playing "clan-like".

Such things. Not lowtech being magically quirked up to be better than high tech. That's nonsense.

I approve this but if I were a developer, I can imagine this must be a nightmare to balance because you can't just play with numbers in a spreadsheet.

[Joseph Mallan]

Numbers on a spreadsheet cannot always factor for human ingenuity!

[Mystere]

Paigan, on 27 April 2015 - 04:40 AM, said:

Balance is paramount.

Disregarding the human component, how many variables do you think are involved?

Here is a hint. This site does not cover all of them.

Hit the Deck, on 27 April 2015 - 05:49 AM, said:

I approve this but if I were a developer, I can imagine this must be a nightmare to balance because you can't just play with numbers in a spreadsheet.

Joseph Mallan, on 27 April 2015 - 05:52 AM, said:

Numbers on a spreadsheet cannot always factor for human ingenuity!

I don't think I'd want to use spreadsheets to perform a dynamic analysis of N-on-M encounters that involve a hundred variables or so.

Now, if only someone would create a Battletech version of JWARS.

Edited by Mystere, 27 April 2015 - 06:03 AM.

[Roadbuster]

Paigan, on 27 April 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

However, don't you find it a little odd that you can pump alpha after alpha directly into the SCR's nose and it still runs around fully functional, where most heaver mechs would be long dead?
I think that's strange...

Yes, you're right. Had the same thing happen with a Stalker... and a Thunderbolt, Firestarter, Raven, Griffin, Centurion, Cicada, Grasshopper,...
Please fix all of them.

[Ghogiel]

Make a video of you shooting the SCRs showing the damage going into the void.

[kapusta11]

It's not oversized undergunned piece of ****, quick, nerf it now!! Lol))

[Ultimax]

Paigan, on 27 April 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

If that is so, maybe all (many) other mechs ned to have their hitboxes improved.

However, don't you find it a little odd that you can pump alpha after alpha directly into the SCR's nose and it still runs around fully functional, where most heaver mechs would be long dead?
I think that's strange...

I think a lot of players think they are getting cleaner shots on target they they actually are.






If you're in brawl/skirmish range, shoot the legs.

If you're at distance, I usually aim for the high portion of the toros section unless I have a very clear angle on the nose.

As with light mechs, you'll find you get much quicker kills with front loaded weapons, especially pinpoint weapons like Gauss or AC 20s - where lasers will often spread all over a Stormcrow.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 27 April 2015 - 06:24 AM.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 27 April 2015 - 05:28 AM, said:

There is nothing to fix.

They have excellent hitboxes.

We should be so lucky to have more mechs with excellent hitboxes, not less

This is a funny double-standard I've seen with the MWO forums.

On one hand, people constantly talk about low TTK, mechs dying too fast, CoD, so on and so forth....

But then they complain about mechs that have durable and survivable hitboxes.

They can't have it both ways, because they're mutually exclusive lines of reasoning. If they want a high TTK and mechs to be tough, that means mechs need to have good hitboxes that allow for relatively even damage spreading. If mechs don't have good hitboxes, then mechs die fast and we have the low TTK problem that people complain about. Lel.

kapusta11, on 27 April 2015 - 06:21 AM, said:

It's not oversized undergunned piece of ****, quick, nerf it now!! Lol))

Actually, the Crow is pretty massive in size, it's just that its other positive traits more than make up for being scaled gigantic.

[Ragtag soldier]

i've found that autocannons and SRMs do damage more reliably to the frame than lasers.

[Paigan]

Ultimatum X, on 27 April 2015 - 06:23 AM, said:

I think a lot of players think they are getting cleaner shots on target they they actually are.






If you're in brawl/skirmish range, shoot the legs.

If you're at distance, I usually aim for the high portion of the toros section unless I have a very clear angle on the nose.

As with light mechs, you'll find you get much quicker kills with front loaded weapons, especially pinpoint weapons like Gauss or AC 20s - where lasers will often spread all over a Stormcrow.

Thanks for the image (I knew that already).

However what you wrote does in no way support your point "I think a lot of players think they are getting cleaner shots on target they they actually are."
You basically just write "shoot the legs".
But WHY do we not get the clean shots we think we get?

Looking at the image, read again what I wrote:
When shooting at the nose, the image implies that around 90% of the damage should go to center torso. From the front as well as from the side.

SCR can have a little under 100 HP on CT tops.
So when I shoot 2 or even 3 alphas of 4xLPL (52 damage) right on its nose, shouldn't it be dead as dead can be?
Instead they shoot you back in the face and need another 2-3 alphas to finally die.

And I have the same impression when piloting one.
I once stood surrounded by 3 enemy (fat) mechs shooting at me. I shot several alphas, shut down, powered up again, shot again and THEN died. This can't be normal.

[mogs01gt]

I think the answer is not to nerf the Crow but to fix the other mechs. Of course, a lot of mechs cannot get 100% correct to do design. The issue will always be 12v12 has too many players on one map and some mechs are simply a poor design for MWO.

[Tennex]

i love the thought of a medium mech being viable but they should either buff all other mediums or nerf the crow, i think. combination of both would be nice

the CT hitbox is just too small, that + twist an turn = invincible

increase CT hitbox or
they may need to reduce its twist range and twist rate

[Mawai]

To the OP ...

Please use a video recording tool ... if the problem is reproducible then anyone should be able to do it ... record your private matches, post them, send an email to MWO support and shove them under the noses of the people running this game.

PGI has seen hundreds if not more forum reports on problem mechs, hit registration and hit boxes. Presumably, they choose not to believe them since they have done little about it. The only time I have seen any reasonable response is when the problems are documented ... in game ... using video ... then everyone can see that YES there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

So to the OP and everyone else ... if you can reproduce these issues in private matches then please use one of the video capture tools available, record the matches and post them.

[Mystere]

Tennex, on 27 April 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

i love the thought of a medium mech being viable but they should either buff all other mediums or nerf the crow, i think. combination of both would be nice

the CT hitbox is just too small, that + twist an turn = invincible

increase CT hitbox or
they may need to reduce its twist range and twist rate

You don't sound like you really want a fix, just a nerf. Otherwise, you'd only be calling for the hitboxes of other mechs to be improved.