51 replies to this topic

[Homeless Bill]

This is what I'm ******* talking about. We whine for months (years) about terrible trial 'mechs, and then this thing rolls off the short bus.

PGI. Stahp. Please.

Why It's Bad

It skimps way too much armor (including on its super-fragile side torsos - what the actual ****?), it's got a slow XL in one of the most fragile XL 'mechs (that, again, has been made more fragile by skimping armor), it's got the wrong engine (265 is the same tonnage but faster - why on earth would you do that?), it doesn't have enough ammo to be entirely ammo-dependent, it wastes two tons it needs elsewhere on heatsinks, it puts the ammo in the side torsos, and it's another dangerous 'mech for new players.

Now, it's definitely not the worst. I get what it's going for, and it could absolutely be much more depressing. It's got mad DPS, right bro? But here's the problem: it's too slow to be a striker and too fragile to be a brawler. What does that leave it as? Great if it's totally ignored as it waddles into position? Super.

This kitchen-sink approach to builds is unhelpful. 'Mechs can be functional in multiple range brackets, but they really need to excel in one. Being average at all ranges means being at a disadvantage to specialized loadouts in every single situation besides being ignored.

Loadouts need to synergize with the chassis, and a short-range, slow Jagermech with an XL engine and not enough armor might as well be a case study in how not to do that. Can you make it work? Yeah, if you get super lucky. It's still a piece of ****.

Alternatives

The Jagermech is all about peeking and fire support. I've actually always been partial to the all-fives build if you really have your heart set on making use of the unique hardpoints.

But hey, if you're set out to make this brawly, you can do that too. Something like this commits to the brawl, but does so in a way that gives it at least some durability. You could also do something funky and asymmetrical like 2xSRM6+LBX10 on one side with a big standard.

Or **** it. Just put 2xGauss on it because it'll work better than a slow, brawler Jager with an XL engine and a deathwish.

Fix It

I will repeat my solution to this really-not-that-hard problem:

• Choose three or four respected community members to make builds for each 'mech.
  
• Make a single, huge thread where the community can vote between the builds for a week.
  
• Have some guy at PGI copy the winning build.

Bam. Done. On PGI's end, it requires Tina to get the list of builds from a couple people and make a thread with the information. It would also require someone at PGI to make the builds on their end.

I call on everyone to go spam the forums and Russ on twitter over the next few weeks. There's simply no excuse for not crowd-sourcing a simple solution to one of the longest-standing problems in the game.

TL;DR: Stop making **** Champion / trial builds, get three or four competent community members to put together builds, have everyone vote, and replace the trash we have now with the winners.

[FupDup]

I made an attempt at improving the trial Jag while keeping it a mixed build:

JM6-A(C) Slightly Less Bad Version

[Scratx]

Just took a look at it... I'll probably drop all SRMs to SRM4's, drop the DHS and armor up. Then slap the rest on ammo and see how it plays.


Edit : Handles decently. Plenty of ammo after the changes I described and the SRMs deliver a solid punch at close range. Not a glass cannon, either, due to much heavier armor. Still, lack of speed makes me wonder how I'll fare if I get a less SRM friendly map... for about 500k cbills, though, it's an easy and very needed change. Relatively minor firepower loss for a lot more endurance. Good tradeoff.

Edited by Scratx, 05 May 2015 - 11:33 AM.

[Crotch RockIt]

I agree 100% with Bill. These terrible Champion builds are exasperatingly infuriating. There's no logic or consistency to them. It's like they rotate a new clueless intern every 3 months to create a Champion mech.

For example, the XL260 is understandable, if the goal is to keep the same engine size as stock (260) or a multiple of the mech's tonnage (per lore). The champ Banshee follows this same line of thought. Great. Except, the recent champ Raven (arguably the worst champ of all) uses a 295 when a 280 would have fit the aforementioned line of thought better. And the 280 would've allowed for 1 more ton of much needed armor. But since there is zero consistency in champ design, this Jager should've gotten a 265, like Bill said.

I could write an essay about these hair-pulling choices by the person(s)? who design these mechs.

Edited by Crotch RockIt, 05 May 2015 - 11:15 AM.

[Malleus011]

They could just pull the 'top builds' from Smurfy's and implement those.

There's no excuse for bad trail 'mechs. The new user experience is excruciating enough as it is.

[Torgun]

You'd think PGI would like to make good champion mechs since they're hoping people will buy it for cash. But then they make bad champions like this, and you just get reminded of how little they actually know about the game they're developing.

[Lyoto Machida]

PGI aren't BT/MW fans, so I'm not surprised.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I'll quote myself:

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 05 May 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

Shiiiiiiiiiit..... I'd rather then get this:

JM6-A(C)Std270, AC10, SRM4s, MedLas

They need to keep builds REALLY simple. And preferably with standard engines in heavies and assaults.

[Homeless Bill]

Torgun, on 05 May 2015 - 01:10 PM, said:

You'd think PGI would like to make good champion mechs since they're hoping people will buy it for cash. But then they make bad champions like this, and you just get reminded of how little they actually know about the game they're developing.

This is what I don't understand. To everyone out there saying, "But trials are supposed to be ****** to push people to buy 'mechs!" - this is one of the 'mechs they want you to buy. Someone built this with the intent that players would purchase it. They failed. Whoever does buy one will feel robbed and the rest of us are too busy shaking our heads.

It's a build that makes sense on paper without understanding how the game actually plays. It's got weapons for a couple different ranges, it's got some low-heat DPS, and it packs a serious alpha. What's the problem?

They build 'mechs like a collection of weapons rather than thinking about a role first. It's not, "How can I make this a brawler?" It's, "Let's see what I can fit on it." That approach leaves you with a slow, fragile barn door that needs to be about 200m from its target to do serious damage. It requires that people ignore you for you to do well - that might as well be the definition of a **** build.

[C E Dwyer]

Homeless Bill, on 05 May 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

This is what I'm ******* talking about. We whine for months (years) about terrible trial 'mechs, and then this thing rolls off the short bus.

PGI. Stahp. Please.

Why It's Bad

It skimps way too much armor (including on its super-fragile side torsos - what the actual ****?), it's got a slow XL in one of the most fragile XL 'mechs (that, again, has been made more fragile by skimping armor), it's got the wrong engine (265 is the same tonnage but faster - why on earth would you do that?), it doesn't have enough ammo to be entirely ammo-dependent, it wastes two tons it needs elsewhere on heatsinks, it puts the ammo in the side torsos, and it's another dangerous 'mech for new players.

Now, it's definitely not the worst. I get what it's going for, and it could absolutely be much more depressing. It's got mad DPS, right bro? But here's the problem: it's too slow to be a striker and too fragile to be a brawler. What does that leave it as? Great if it's totally ignored as it waddles into position? Super.

This kitchen-sink approach to builds is unhelpful. 'Mechs can be functional in multiple range brackets, but they really need to excel in one. Being average at all ranges means being at a disadvantage to specialized loadouts in every single situation besides being ignored.

Loadouts need to synergize with the chassis, and a short-range, slow Jagermech with an XL engine and not enough armor might as well be a case study in how not to do that. Can you make it work? Yeah, if you get super lucky. It's still a piece of ****.

Alternatives

The Jagermech is all about peeking and fire support. I've actually always been partial to the all-fives build if you really have your heart set on making use of the unique hardpoints.

But hey, if you're set out to make this brawly, you can do that too. Something like this commits to the brawl, but does so in a way that gives it at least some durability. You could also do something funky and asymmetrical like 2xSRM6+LBX10 on one side with a big standard.

Or **** it. Just put 2xGauss on it because it'll work better than a slow, brawler Jager with an XL engine and a deathwish.

Fix It

I will repeat my solution to this really-not-that-hard problem:

• Choose three or four respected community members to make builds for each 'mech.
  
• Make a single, huge thread where the community can vote between the builds for a week.
  
• Have some guy at PGI copy the winning build.

Bam. Done. On PGI's end, it requires Tina to get the list of builds from a couple people and make a thread with the information. It would also require someone at PGI to make the builds on their end.



I call on everyone to go spam the forums and Russ on twitter over the next few weeks. There's simply no excuse for not crowd-sourcing a simple solution to one of the longest-standing problems in the game.

TL;DR: Stop making **** Champion / trial builds, get three or four competent community members to put together builds, have everyone vote, and replace the trash we have now with the winners.

while I totally agree with your sentiment, and if a trial sucks to hard then its going to be a bad experience.

However if its to good, where is the need or desire to progress to a 'proper' mech, and then supporting the game.

I haven't had the 'delights' of trying the new freebie yet, I'm sure its as bad as you say, but a balance needs to be made between what we would use, and sucks hard

omg lol just clicked the smurfy link the one ton a launcher build that's kind of dead on arrival and I hate that term

Edited by Cathy, 05 May 2015 - 01:56 PM.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 05 May 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

I made an attempt at improving the trial Jag while keeping it a mixed build:

JM6-A(C) Slightly Less Bad Version

That link doesn't work...

Anyways Homeless Bill, I wrote a thread about the variants they put out as Champions (and Clan Trials) and I came more or less to the same conclusion.

You're not going to win this war. They stopped bothering to read (although, there is this one exception where I've somehow convinced PGI to reduce the # of sectors due to the new system they implemented - a quirk and dirty solution for the current bad algo). I don't know how PGI is going to build a good NPE when their Champion builds are generally terribad and/or mediocre as it is (I mean, Kintaro Champion with CASE and XL anyone?).

Edited by Deathlike, 05 May 2015 - 02:27 PM.

[Nathan Foxbane]

I used to roll in an A when Jagers first came out. Not sure how well the build would perform these days. Tell me, oh meta ones, how badly I have screwed it up.

[CocoaJin]

If PGI built then well stock, there would be little to nothing for new buyers to work toward. As it is, they are good salvage mechs to part out and then hot-rod into your own image.

How about this, new guys...run trials while you learn how to get your feet under you, don't worry about wins since you are in your learning stage. Just go out and have fun learning the ropes, she'd the stress of worrying about your performance. Once you figure out the direction you want to go...spend frickin' $7 and buy a descent light or medium to fund your future hangar collection.

Trust me, the $7 alleviates so much angst and frustration. It's good for you, it good for the game...I spent more trying a new sandwich from Subway.

Edited by CocoaJin, 05 May 2015 - 03:21 PM.

[Zfailboat]

Easiest fix - drop the UAC5's to AC5's.
use the 2 T extra to increase armour.

yes the mech is still crappy, but you can increase the armour significantly, with the most minor of tweaks. it should increase the survivability by a decent amount.

I think the reason for the SRMS and UAC5's is that they want to give people the feeling of actually hitting the enemy, as opposed to Lasers which often don't feel like your doing damage with them.

[N0ni]

I can't think of anything (especially Jagers) that uses an XL260, XL255s are more universal... especially in a Jager mastery bundle (can swap that 255 between all 3). But yeah, bad build is bad... would use those weapons on the (C) on some other mech.

[Fate 6]

CocoaJin, on 05 May 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

If PGI built then well stock, there would be little to nothing for new buyers to work toward. As it is, they are good salvage mechs to part out and then hot-rod into your own image.

How about this, new guys...run trials while you learn how to get your feet under you, don't worry about wins since you are in your learning stage. Just go out and have fun learning the ropes, she'd the stress of worrying about your performance. Once you figure out the direction you want to go...spend frickin' $7 and buy a descent light or medium to fund your future hangar collection.

Trust me, the $7 alleviates so much angst and frustration. It's good for you, it good for the game...I spent more trying a new sandwich from Subway.

But for new players they need decent builds not this crap that makes them hate playing.

[CocoaJin]

Fate 6, on 05 May 2015 - 05:31 PM, said:

But for new players they need decent builds not this crap that makes them hate playing.

They do...but the whole premise of the game is hot-rodding your own. Trial mechs are training tools, not front-line units in a customization free-for-all.

We need to stop trying impose the need and worse of all, the expectation that newbies can and should be relevant with trial mechs. Trial mechs are the free, c-bill earning, throw away mechs that should be used only to get familiar with the game. Now, if you insist on grinding c-bill mechs, than that's your choice...but once you've determined you want to proceed past sampling the game, spending $7 is a great way to support the game you've determined is worth playing, and a great way of easing your entry into the world of viable combatant.

Honestly, people take the entitlement of free2play to far. Truth be told, if you are going to play the game then recognize it's not really free2play, it's more accurately free2sample and free2grind. These games are intended and require in order to stay afloat that it be pay2play-freely.

The first hump to viable play is rightfully steep...trials need to suck and remain trainers.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

This is my Jager A, and I can guarantee it will walk all over that Jager-A(C)
Highwayman

[Crotch RockIt]

Nathan Foxbane, on 05 May 2015 - 02:27 PM, said:

I used to roll in an A when Jagers first came out. Not sure how well the build would perform these days. Tell me, oh meta ones, how badly I have screwed it up.

I'm no meta one, but you're a bit light on ammo. This might work better.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b03abaa4ff58055

[Fate 6]

CocoaJin, on 05 May 2015 - 06:00 PM, said:

They do...but the whole premise of the game is hot-rodding your own. Trial mechs are training tools, not front-line units in a customization free-for-all.

We need to stop trying impose the need and worse of all, the expectation that newbies can and should be relevant with trial mechs. Trial mechs are the free, c-bill earning, throw away mechs that should be used only to get familiar with the game. Now, if you insist on grinding c-bill mechs, than that's your choice...but once you've determined you want to proceed past sampling the game, spending $7 is a great way to support the game you've determined is worth playing, and a great way of easing your entry into the world of viable combatant.

Honestly, people take the entitlement of free2play to far. Truth be told, if you are going to play the game then recognize it's not really free2play, it's more accurately free2sample and free2grind. These games are intended and require in order to stay afloat that it be pay2play-freely.

The first hump to viable play is rightfully steep...trials need to suck and remain trainers.

If I'm new to MWO and I get these piles of crap free mechs I'd be outta here. No reason to stick around if I'm not having any fun getting rofl-stomped because I can't do anything. Like you said, trial mechs should just be about getting a new player's feet wet and learning the controls. With that premise, trial mechs should be very useable to an average player so that a new player is just focusing on controls and aim instead of constantly struggling to get in range or even stay alive (this Jagermech will struggle with both, by the way, which is a terrible combination).

You don't really get the way free to play works. That's fine, but don't presume to tell others that you're right and they're wrong. League of Legends players can get on and, while they have a slight disadvantage as a new player, they get most of the exact same tools as an experience player. It's the difference between a stock Stormcrow-Prime and a customized one, not a gap of stock Firestarter to a customized one.

A champion mech doesn't need to be a perfect loadout. It does have to be playable. The champion Thunderbolt isn't optimal with that XL engine but it's definitely playable.

Edited by Fate 6, 05 May 2015 - 08:44 PM.