1189 replies to this topic

[Kartr]

Catamount, on 01 March 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

It's one thing if the story directly contradicts itself such as stating that their torpedoes are nuclear weapons, but then claiming larger nuclear warheads are in those torpedoes than the torpedoes themselves, but outside of that, I grant the Imperium whatever they canonincally can do (and I discount any capability in Trek that simply doesn't work, such as infinite speed ships, again, another concoction of Voyager, or if you want to go by VFX, the capability of the Defiant to spontaneously change size, the work of a single incompetent VFX person, but still, technically canonical). Insofar as solving exotic threats through investigation, and very quickly coming up with solutions, however, the Federation simply has that capability, in abundance.

I think the changing size of ships is something that needs to be disregarded across all Sci-Fi unless its expressly stated in dialog that their ships have some magic tech that allows them to change size. Why? Because its another thing most franchises have in common to some extent or another. For example in Star Wars not only does the Falcon change sizes, the interior is also larger than the exterior.

ilithi dragon, on 01 March 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

A note on warp-straffing: Trek ships canonically CAN fire on sublight ships while at warp. In TOS "Journey to Babel", the Enterprise's engines are disabled by sabotage, and she is engaged by an Orion vessel that is making warp-speed strafing runs. Also, in TOS "The Ultimate Computer", the Enterprise, while under the control of the M5 Computer, engages a sublight transport without dropping out of warp. Trek ships most certainly CAN fire on sublight ships while at warp. Conversely, they can be fired upon by sublight ships while at warp, though hitting them is the trick.

I thought this was disputed because they were counting down the ranges at an impossible slow speed to be at warp? Or is it a function of the fact that warp may not be a measure of FTL speed, but the output of the engines (can't remember exactly how you put it earlier) and so they may not have been traveling faster than the speed of light?

Edited by Kartr, 01 March 2012 - 10:45 PM.

[Zakatak]

I've come to the conclusion that Battlestar nukes (for Cylons/Vipers/Raptors) are only ~50kt and not ~50mt, sorry Galactica.

In the last episode, when Galactica attacked the Colony, one of the types of turreted weapons was some kind of HE-coilgun. These hits rocked the 15 million ton ship (estimate based on Nimitz-class vs. Jupiter-class) around 15 meters per second. I don't exactly remember what value I got, but it was around 200 tons (TNT) per shot. This did substantial damage, much more then the Cylon nuke in the miniseries. I understand that energy is lost quickly in space, but the nuke impacted (key word) right between the "ribbings". I feel that a 50mt nuke would have detonated the tyllium fuel lines with little effort, and tossed the Galactica aside (as they have no inertial dampeners). I think the 50mt statistic were solely for the Galactica's nukes, which were quite huge in comparison to what you see on Baseships and Raptors (like comparing a B61 to a B41).

Also, final idea for my sci-fi series. "Phase Shifters". According to the science in this universe, Dimensions can be split into three categories that are like X, Y, and Z in relation to our dimension. Phases, Realities, and Planes. Phases have different laws of physics, Realities are alternate timelines, Planes have "other things" (beyond time/space/etc) that one could not describe in words. Phase Shifters surround the outside of your ship in a "spacetime bubble" that is swapped from with another phase. You can buy modules for these devices (lol Mechwarrior), such as...

(energy requirements assume frigate sized vessel)
- FTL Module (Velocity = Force^3/Mass^2), 200GW
- Energy Shield Module (Photons have 1/177th the energy), 9000GW
- Mass Modifier Module (40% of original mass, for 60% acceleration), 10GW
- Inertial Dampener Module (Dampens inertia by 99.5%, synced with impacts/recoiling/etc), 2TJ per "burst"
- Artifical Gravity Module (Diamagnetizers set to 33.471kHz will, ahem, 'emit gravity'), 50MW for 1g
- Cloak Module (Photons do not interact with solid matter), 4500GW
- Kinetic Barrier Module (Speed of light is 0.001m/s around ship, for "ramming speed!"), 45TW

Cool idea? Your average frigate would have a 1.8 Petajoule capacitor, and thus, could cloak for 400 seconds. Turning them "on" usually takes 5 seconds.

Edited by Zakatak, 01 March 2012 - 11:15 PM.

[GDL Rahsan]

Strum Wealh, on 01 March 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

Actually, I'd like to know where the argument that the Imperium's ships aren't fusion-powered comes from.

The 40k wiki article regarding the Imperial Navy specifically states:



and




and




The franchise's own wiki states three times in the same article that their power sources are ultimately fusion-based - I'm pretty sure that means that they are using fusion to generate the plasma that they then use for other tasks.

For example, a "plasma reactor" can be something as relatively straightforward as a tokamak or similar device (which, incidentally, is also pretty much what a BattleMech's fusion engine is) - real-world examples include JET, ITER, and DEMO.

Sorry, but that seems a bit wrong. According to the article they have used Double Eagle, and Execution Hour as sources for the word fusion based, and according to the Battle Fleet Gothic rule book they are JUST plasma reactors and according to GW canon issues the codex beats the novel unless word of god interfere and since those novels are publlished by Black Library writers which I have already stated that seem to make stuff up ignoring math and science it is safe to say they just decided that the word fusion was cool, so unless you can get me a codex that specify they are fusion based I think I will stay with my opinion, further more the Lexicanum have stated that they are just plasma reactors, even the torpedo warheads are just mentioned to powered by plasma reactors and their sources seem to only come from the codexes and white dwarf, another trustworthy place for canon.

Actually, the one in the middle about Ironclads is canon but the Ironclad class ships have been to stated to have only FUSION reactors not fusion based plasma reactors, further more those ships are canonically out dated ships and they stoped producing them because most of the technology used on them is outdated they were built before the creation of void shields or at least before their usage and those ships don't have any void hsields equipped which is basically the a must for even the loweliest Imperial ship, and I quote:

Quote

There are many older classes of Imperial ship that are no longer in production -

• Ironclads - much like their contemporary counterparts, are vast 8-kilometre vessels which lack the void shielding of their counterparts in favour of metres of adamantium plate armour. These ships, built before the advent of void-screen technology, have since been phased out of production, for the main part, to be replaced by more modern designs. However, those remaining in service have been recommissioned for a variety of purposes; various pattern ironclads may be retrofitted with gargantuan, ship-, station- and even planet-killer cannon running the entire length of the ship's keel, linked directly to the stern fusion reactors; others may simply be braced and reinforced for the purpose of ramming into - and through - enemy vessels. These ships are rare in the Imperial Navy, due to their archaic design and the lack of facilities still capable of repairing, let alone producing them.

So, if there is any canon source, a codex or an issue of the white dwarf magazine or even a "word of god" on the fusion based plasma reactors pleas do correct me.

Edited by GDL Rahsan, 02 March 2012 - 05:52 AM.

[Polymorphyne]

Quote

but why is no one in the 40k universe in any way virtuous?

The emperor languishes in eternal suffering to protect humanity, Marneus Calgar was a pretty virtuous primarch, as was sanguinus. Comissar Yarrick is pretty virtuous, instead of executing people and using fear to keep people in line he leads from the front and inspires them.

The Imperial Guard special Character Sergeant Bastonne cares deeply about his men and is adored by the population of Cadia as a true hero- he also refused to leave any of his men behind during an engagement with nurgle plaguebearers, going back, risking his life to drag a wounded soldier back to the shuttle. He has an eidectic memory and can remember the face of every soldier to die under his command, an has tattooed all of their names onto his flesh in case he forgets.

Colonel Straken of the catachans, while a complete baddass, does alot to protect his men. He earns their respect by leading from the front and saving their lives as much as they save his.

I know for a fact that Chapter Master Dante of the Blood Angels (the oldest non-dreadnaught space marine still alive) is pretty conscientious and noble, as are many of the blood angels- the blood angels, despite their terrible affliction, are lovers of art and craftsmanship.

The Imperial Fists, Ultramarines and Blood Angels are good examples of chapters that protect humanity and are fairly benevolent, and the Emperor did what he did for one reason- to try and save mankind from the kind of stuff that happened during the age of strife, by uniting it against all of the various evils in the galaxy. He also decreed that superstition and religion should be abolished in favour of science and reason- he saved humanity from a terrible civil war, and saved its cut off colonies from their isolation, which put them at huge threat of being wiped out or enslaved by aliens or worse. He conquered humanity and united it because it had to be united if it was to survive- no isolated colony could survive the huge threats out there on its own.

Then there are the Tau and Eldar- both do have a darker side, but the tau in particular are pretty good. They negotiate with everyone they can rather than fight, only fighting if they have to- The only reason they fight is because they are hemmed in by alien races such as the imperium, and their race lives in a dense star cluster that could go supernova at any time, so they need to expand for their race to not risk being wiped out in one go. They arent perfect (for one thing they more or less enslaved the Vespids) but they are more or less a good race that gives everyone the benefit of a doubt (they even tried to negotiate with the orcs, and when a necron fleet emerged from a dead moon orbiting one of their colonies and defeated an invading tyranid fleet, that colony greeted the necrons with open arms.) (Of course, that lead to them being annihinated on that colony by the necrons, which shows what happens in the 40k universe if you are too trusting and innocent)

[LordDeathStrike]

im sorry but warhammer 40k during the golden age of technology trumps all.

space marines > all other infantry
baneblades > all other tanks
tau = masters of mecha, not too mention massive daemons, and world rumbling 1000 ton + mechs
imperium of mans space fleet has everything from drop ships to world slaying cruisers to massive space hulks

warhammer is just a nasty universe after 40k years of constant warfare =D

[Captain Hat]

In terms of observed and quantifiable feats and the raw power output indicated,

-BTech is quite low on the scale.

-Star Trek has some nifty toys but most of them only work on EM shields (i.e. shields that use the same mechanism as Trek shields) and physical matter. In terms or raw power they're relatively high, megaton range mostly.

-Star Wars has very high weapon yields (which are canon, specifically since an actual number was written down in one of the books- and since I know Nebfer from elsewhere I'm pretty sure he knows what I'm talking about.

The biggest advantage that Star Wars has, though, it its interstellar travel speed. When your ship can go from being anywhere in the galaxy to anywhere else in the galaxy in about fifteen minutes flat (and that frankly ridiculous speed is established canon) you can concentrate your forces pretty much anywhere at zero notice and that, my friends, will be all she wrote in a strategic war regardless of any minor quibble about who has more megatons in their zappy space guns. Paired with the combined industrial output of literally almost an entire galaxy- an advantage to which only the Imperium of Man can lay claim out of the other factions you list- and all of the starship output that implies, any strategic war is going to go the way of the Galactic Empire, and fast.

When your enemy can strike any world you have with almost his entire fleet at any moment, and switch to a less well-defended world the moment they see a defence fleet, and erase all life on the planet within two hours of showing up, defensive operations become an absolute logistical nightmare. For reference, erasing all life on a planet- as opposed to blowing it up- can be accomplished by a single Imperial Star Destroyer according to the canon "Base Delta Zero" order, though timeframe is not specified. With a large fleet of ISDs, I expect that timeframe to get exponentially shorter.

Star Wars' main disadvantage is that it takes time to map safe Hyperspace pathways (otherwise, to paraphrase Han Solo, you could end up plowing straight into a star) but of all the universes posited in the OP only 40K has control over enough of the galaxy and is consistently sufficiently paranoid to blow up enough hyperspace probe droids on sight to make this a long-term problem.

-An initial disclaimer should be made clear here: Warhammer 40,000, in many ways, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It's basically Fantasy in Space, rather than being true science fiction. The numbers are inconsistent, the ships are four kilometres long, the weapons behave quite strangely and most of the technology does stuff it frankly should not be capable off given what powers it. That aside, this is the general achieved consensus when you aggregate all the sources- think of it as more of a correlated highest-probability distribution, rather than anything else.

-Warhammer 40,000 has similarly high weapon yields, slightly weaker shields but much tougher ships when compared to Star Wars, but combat ranges in 40K tend to be several orders of magnitude longer than in either Wars or Trek and their ships are much faster when travelling at sublight velocities. Any tactical engagement of approximate class parity in terms of ships I personally would expect the 40K fleet to win, eventually. Star Trek's anti-shield effects are probably going to have no effect at all against 40K's Void Shields, which basically work by shunting incoming Dangerous Energy into Hell* rather than by dissipating it across an electromagnetic field, and Star Trek's physical-damage mechanisms are demonstrably less efficient when working against dense materials. Given that a 40K starship can take a multi-gigaton torpedo warhead to the face and basically come back with "I think I got something on my chin" it's safe to say that their armouring is pretty damn dense. In fact, 40K's materials technology is one of the areas it delves deepest into fantasy because frankly, it's ridiculous. At one point in one of the books, a 60+-ton tank is thrown bodily sideways by a missile impact to the side of the turret that neither penetrates nor spalls its armour, the crew are fine, the turret not only remains in its ring but its turning is unimpeded and the tank carries on like nothing happened. Frankly, that's ridiculous. But it's also canon.

In the long term they still lose to Star Wars' far, far superior strategic mobility (40K Warp travel** is much faster than most observed Trek warp speeds as well as being faster over long distances than Battletech drives but still much, much slower than Hyperspace) and industrial output (the Imperium has the resources of a galaxy to call on, but it only has the Adeptus Mechanicus to do it, and the AdMech are horrifically inefficient compared to Kuat Drive Yards) but of those posited it is my personal opinion that 40K is the universe that would be the hardest to conquer.

*No I'm not kidding. Or exaggerating. OK, so they call it the Warp in 40K, but it's a dimension of eternal fire populated by an infinite horde of howling daemons who want nothing more than to eat your soul. Think Event Horizon with more burning.

**Yes, they actually travel through it. Turns out, you move faster in Hell. They have to have special psychic shielding on their ships and genetically-engineered psychic navigators to steer the ships. I'd hate to think how the early space travel experiments before they'd figured out how to set that up went.

[Captain Hat]

Re: Good people and 40K

40K is set up so that even the best of people have to make horrible, horrible choices. There's a great quote from the Inquisition (which I will probably mangle here): "There are those who question our right to order an Exterminatus- to destroy all life on a planet. If they knew the truth- and they can never be allowed to know the truth- they would question our right not to."

The thing is, in 40K, the paranoia, the killing of civilians who just might have caught a glimpse of the wrong thing out of the corner of their eye, the extermination of entire planetary biospheres- it' not just justified, but because of the way the universe is set up, it's very often necessary.

Consider: There is, let's say, a Cult of Slaanesh on a planet. The Cult has suborned the local government, controls the local law enforcement, and roughly two thirds of the planetary defence force's higher echelons are Cult members. You have hard evidence that if you don't stop them cold within the next thirty-six hours they will summon a Keeper of Secrets- a Greater Daemon of Slaanesh who will consume entire worlds on his own once made manifest in base reality, regardless of what you do. There are only three organisations in the Galaxy capable of responding to this sort of threat, the Grey Knights are weeks away and even the nearest Space Marine Chapter is 48 hours of high-speed (and high-risk!) Warp travel away. You are on hand in an Inquisition Black Ship- the third option. You have an Exterminatus weapon that will end the threat, and at the cost of approximately six billion lives you can save the entire subsector.

Under the circumstances, what choice IS there?

[Polymorphyne]

It is better to sacrifice a few million than to risk the deaths of billions- that is the maxim the Imperium works under. They are in it for the survival of the species.
Of course, it was better under the living emperor, when it was all about science and reason and enlightenment. You can blame the Word Bearers for deifying the emperor and Horus for his heresy which cost the imperium the emperor's ability to oppose the new religion.

[GDL Rahsan]

Actually Captain it is well known that the only good Inquisitor is the one you never heard about. As in the Inquisitor who does his job quickly to save as many lives as he can and make sure things never get bad enough to declare an Exterminatus.

As for the quote you are loooking for it's exactly worded as:
"Some may question your right to destroy ten billion people. Those who understand realise that you have no right to let them live!"

Edited by GDL Rahsan, 02 March 2012 - 05:49 AM.

[ExAstris]

It has occurred to me that the framework for these engagements has not been very well established. The concentration is heavily on fleet engagements with a societal implications occassionally cropping up, but the circumstances they find themselves in also seems to be a relevant factor and could change which star spanning political entities fare well or worse.

For example, the underlying notion of engagement seems to be empire duels under the stipulation that they were to find each other on the other's doorstep and fight to the pain (clear victory, but not neccessarily extermination/death. +10 points for everyone who knows the reference). This means that fleet engagements between the two will be the most important factor, but socio-economic considerations will also play a significant role in many cases.

But there are alot of factors unconsidered, what if the Empire's are not at each other's doorstep? What if the Galactic Empire (Star Wars) has to fight against the Mimbari when they are in different galaxies? Its not clear that Star Wars, despite is apparently excellent travel speeds, is even capable of transgalactic travel. There are even EU stories of expeditions beyond the rim that lead to certain doom (Joruus C'Both, etc). So even if the Mimbari are technologically and economically inferior, they are the only ones even capable of making a strike. Maybe eventually the Empire will get their travel technology from a damage ship, or maybe the Mimbari will simply be content to evolve for millenia into their version of The First Ones before attacking the technologically stagnant Empire.

Another (and perhaps even more interesting) permutation of the engagement is one that involves a mass hodgepodging of empires into a super-galaxy. This removes the implicit dueling condition and makes room for diplomatic maneuvering (alliances, technology trading, cultural influence, etc). Races of political savvy will gain a much stronger advantage here than they could find a high-noon duel. The United Federation of Planets, the Earth Alliance and perhaps Centauri (Babylon 5), The Galactic Republic (at least as it appears in the KotOR timeline), and other cooperative/diplomatic entities will gain a noticable advantage in these contexts due to cooperative benefits. Throw in enough cooperative political entities and quite soon it won't be the Galactic Empire vs the Earth Alliance, but will instead be the Galactic Empire vs the Earth Alliance, Mimbari, Galactic Republic, and Narn while all benefiting from relief aid from the United Federation of Planets. In short, the self-interested, petty, beligerant, and/or untrustworthy empires are going to have more trouble in politically and strategically complicated environments.

Just some food for thought.

[Catamount]

Kartr, on 01 March 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

I think the changing size of ships is something that needs to be disregarded across all Sci-Fi unless its expressly stated in dialog that their ships have some magic tech that allows them to change size. Why? Because its another thing most franchises have in common to some extent or another. For example in Star Wars not only does the Falcon change sizes, the interior is also larger than the exterior.

Oh, definitely, but it's worth noting that some of DS9 was bad for this, and I mean really bad.

It was a single VFX guy, named David Stipes, who basically seemed to figure that ships had no size, so the size was whatever made any scene look super leet and awesome. I mean, the maximum variation you could estimate would have the Defiant doubling just in length; that's an eight fold difference in size!

Quote

I thought this was disputed because they were counting down the ranges at an impossible slow speed to be at warp? Or is it a function of the fact that warp may not be a measure of FTL speed, but the output of the engines (can't remember exactly how you put it earlier) and so they may not have been traveling faster than the speed of light?

I'm not sure which episode you're referring to, but Journey to Babel doesn't explicitly give ranges until the very end, after the ship's speed was stated to be dropping. Chekov said "dropping close to sublight" (so it's explicitly stated that it's moving at FTL, and was just about passing the warp barrier at that instant, but after that statement, it could have been moving at any speed below that), and once the ship closes to 75,000km, the ship immediately fires phasers.

The actual strafing runs were done at relatively high warp. The ship approaches at warp 8 (TOS warp 8, not TNG) and immediately opens fire on a pass, and then continues that strafing pattern, with the Enterprise's weapons missing each and every time.

[GDL Rahsan]

ExAstris, on 02 March 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

It has occurred to me that the framework for these engagements has not been very well established. The concentration is heavily on fleet engagements with a societal implications occassionally cropping up, but the circumstances they find themselves in also seems to be a relevant factor and could change which star spanning political entities fare well or worse.

For example, the underlying notion of engagement seems to be empire duels under the stipulation that they were to find each other on the other's doorstep and fight to the pain (clear victory, but not neccessarily extermination/death. +10 points for everyone who knows the reference). This means that fleet engagements between the two will be the most important factor, but socio-economic considerations will also play a significant role in many cases.

But there are alot of factors unconsidered, what if the Empire's are not at each other's doorstep? What if the Galactic Empire (Star Wars) has to fight against the Mimbari when they are in different galaxies? Its not clear that Star Wars, despite is apparently excellent travel speeds, is even capable of transgalactic travel. There are even EU stories of expeditions beyond the rim that lead to certain doom (Joruus C'Both, etc). So even if the Mimbari are technologically and economically inferior, they are the only ones even capable of making a strike. Maybe eventually the Empire will get their travel technology from a damage ship, or maybe the Mimbari will simply be content to evolve for millenia into their version of The First Ones before attacking the technologically stagnant Empire.

Another (and perhaps even more interesting) permutation of the engagement is one that involves a mass hodgepodging of empires into a super-galaxy. This removes the implicit dueling condition and makes room for diplomatic maneuvering (alliances, technology trading, cultural influence, etc). Races of political savvy will gain a much stronger advantage here than they could find a high-noon duel. The United Federation of Planets, the Earth Alliance and perhaps Centauri (Babylon 5), The Galactic Republic (at least as it appears in the KotOR timeline), and other cooperative/diplomatic entities will gain a noticable advantage in these contexts due to cooperative benefits. Throw in enough cooperative political entities and quite soon it won't be the Galactic Empire vs the Earth Alliance, but will instead be the Galactic Empire vs the Earth Alliance, Mimbari, Galactic Republic, and Narn while all benefiting from relief aid from the United Federation of Planets. In short, the self-interested, petty, beligerant, and/or untrustworthy empires are going to have more trouble in politically and strategically complicated environments.

Just some food for thought.

True, we are ignoring those types of things because it will get things even more complicated especially with universes like WH40K were we have millions of minor races but we have little to no info about it, so if we include political allliances or specific locations for the encounter we might do stuff unfairly because that minor race you didn't have an idea about was actually going to win the fight for one side, so I think we are just assuming that we are on a nuetral universe where the subspace versions of all the universes work, but again even I am not sure if that's correct so guys what is our exact scenario here?

[Catamount]

Exastris, you're right, of course, but it's not the easiest thing to come up with.

We actually had a reasonably narrow set of terms agreed to earlier, but that discussion was concluded long ago, and this thread subsequently died, before suddenly being resurrected, so now I'm not even entirely sure what we're discussing, which makes it hard to pin down and say anything worthwhile about it.

[Madcat75]

I voted Warhammer 40K they will beat anything with just one word ........ EXTERMINATUS.

When you can vaporise planets with 1 missile or just fry the atmosphere of a planet what more do you need.

[GDL Rahsan]

Catamount, on 02 March 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

Exastris, you're right, of course, but it's not the easiest thing to come up with.

We actually had a reasonably narrow set of terms agreed to earlier, but that discussion was concluded long ago, and this thread subsequently died, before suddenly being resurrected, so now I'm not even entirely sure what we're discussing, which makes it hard to pin down and say anything worthwhile about it.

Actually, I am pretty sure it got resurrected 2 times already those necromancers seems to be on the loose or do we call them threadomancers now?

Edited by GDL Rahsan, 02 March 2012 - 08:45 AM.

[Catamount]

GDL Rahsan, on 02 March 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

Actually, I am pretty sure it got resurrected 2 times already those necromancers seems to be on the loose or do we call them threadomancers now?

On the STO forums, our guilds' typical response was usually just to post this video on any resurrected thread

[GDL Rahsan]

Catamount, on 02 March 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

On the STO forums, our guilds' typical response was usually just to post this video on any resurrected thread

And it appears you just reused this tradition here congratulations. Well it is related to the subject at hand. But the question now should we cast smite evil or turn undead on this undead abomination or should we continue?

[Strum Wealh]

GDL Rahsan, on 02 March 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

Sorry, but that seems a bit wrong. According to the article they have used Double Eagle, and Execution Hour as sources for the word fusion based, and according to the Battle Fleet Gothic rule book they are JUST plasma reactors and according to GW canon issues the codex beats the novel unless word of god interfere and since those novels are publlished by Black Library writers which I have already stated that seem to make stuff up ignoring math and science it is safe to say they just decided that the word fusion was cool, so unless you can get me a codex that specify they are fusion based I think I will stay with my opinion, further more the Lexicanum have stated that they are just plasma reactors, even the torpedo warheads are just mentioned to powered by plasma reactors and their sources seem to only come from the codexes and white dwarf, another trustworthy place for canon.

Actually, the one in the middle about Ironclads is canon but the Ironclad class ships have been to stated to have only FUSION reactors not fusion based plasma reactors, further more those ships are canonically out dated ships and they stoped producing them because most of the technology used on them is outdated they were built before the creation of void shields or at least before their usage and those ships don't have any void hsields equipped which is basically the a must for even the loweliest Imperial ship, and I quote:




So, if there is any canon source, a codex or an issue of the white dwarf magazine or even a "word of god" on the fusion based plasma reactors pleas do correct me.

Okay.

Under "Weapons of the Imperium":

Quote

The principle upon which Melta Weapons work varies in their depictions. Sometimes it is said to work by producing a small-scale fusion reaction using a pyrum petrol fuel mix. This is projected as a blast of incredible heat. In other cases, it is said to function in a similar way to a modern microwave oven.

-----

The Plasma Pistol is a shorter-ranged, single-handed pistol version of the Plasma Gun. This weapon makes use of a micro-fusion nuclear reaction to superheat a cartridge of gas into the state of matter known as plasma and then release it in a concentrated blast of weapons fire using an electromagentic bubble.

-----


Sources:

• Warhammer 40,000 - Rogue Trader (1st Edition)
  
• Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook (3rd Edition)
  
• Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook (4th Edition)
  
• Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook (5th Edition)
  
• Warhammer 40,000 Wargear (2nd Edition)
  
• Warhammer 40,000 Wargear (4th Edition)
  
• Warhammer 40,000: Epic
  
• Codex: Eldar (4th Edition)
  
• Codex: Orks (4th Edition)
  
• Codex: Grey Knights (5th Edition)
  
• Codex: Space Wolves (5th Edition)
  
• Codex: Space Marines (5th Edition)
  
• Codex: Blood Angels (5th Edition)
  
• Codex: Black Templars (4th Edition)
  
• Codex: Imperial Guard (3rd Edition)
  
• Codex: Imperial Guard (4th Edition)
  
• Codex: Imperial Guard (5th Edition)
  
• Dark Heresy Core Rulebook (RPG)
  
• Necromunda (Specialty Game)
  
• Imperial Armour Volume 1 - Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy
  
• Warhammer 40,000 Apocalypse (4th Edition)
  
• Dawn of War Series (PC Games)

Under "Plasma Weapons":

Quote

Plasma Weapons operate by converting normal gases or other fuel materials into a highly-energized state of matter known as plasma, the constituent matter of the stars themselves. When fired, this fuel is energized into plasma and unleashed as brightly glowing "bolts" of pure energy. This energy is encased in a magnetic containment field that prevents the plasma "bolt" from dissipating before reaching its target. Once the plasma comes into contact with a solid material, the magnetic field ruptures, venting the superheated energy onto the target. The enemy is then vaporised. Plasma is incredibly dangerous stuff to deal with. Imperial versions of the weapon are particularly unstable due to their imperfect designs as a result of the Imperium's declining technology base. Overheating is prevented mainly by venting a plasma weapon's excess heat into the surrounding area due to a lack of proper cooling apparatus. Even with this countermeasure, it is not uncommon for plasma-based weapons to completely overheat or explode, killing or maiming the user. A plasma weapon struck or knocked out of a hand by a weapon hit will easily explode, killing its user.

Plasma guns and pistols use a plasma energizer to convert the ammunition supplied by gas containment flasks, which are good for about ten shots. Plasma cannons are typically powered by a fusion generator of some sort. Plasma Weapons are a mostly lost technology from the standpoint of the contemporary Imperium of Man, seen as the relics of another age. Their workings are a mystery for the most part, and only a select few Forge Worlds of the Adeptus Mechanicus still know how to construct them. Those few plasma weapons that are constructed for the Imperium's armed forces go through extensive blessings and rituals dedicated to the Machine God before use.

-----

Sources:

• Warhammer 40,000: Wargear
  
• Codex: Eldar (4th Edition)
  
• Confrontation
  
• Warhammer 40,000 3rd Edition Rulebook

Under "Plasma Pistol":

Quote

The Plasma Pistol is a short-ranged, single-handed pistol version of the Imperial Plasma Gun that makes use of a micro-fusion nuclear reation to superheat a cartidge of gas into the state of matter known as plasma and then release it in a concentrated blast of weapons fire using an electromagentic bubble. The Plasma Pistol is most commonly carried by officers of both the Space Marines and the Imperial Guard. Aside from individual Imperial officers, some specialized assault troops such as Assault Marines are also sometimes armed with Plasma Pistols. The current standard pattern of Plasma Pistol in use by the armed forces of the Imperium of Man is the Mark III Sunfury.

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Sources:

• Codex: Imperial Guard (3rd Edition)
  
• Codex: Space Marines (4th Edition)
  
• Codex: Imperial Guard (5th Edition)
  
• Codex: Space Marines (5th Edition)

Under "Fortress-Monastery":

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Generatorum: The power source for the fortress-monastery on Fenris is a group of four huge crystal-piles which penetrate the surface of the planet and convert geothermal heat into energy via a phased crystal interface (presumably there are many other ways of generating energy on this scale, this is but one example of the possibilities available to the Imperium, which more often relies upon fusion-based plasma generators).

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Sources:

• Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader (1st Edition)

Under "Hive City":

Quote

The Outskirts of a hive city are not as terrible a place to live as the Underhive, but the Outskirts carries its own terrible risks. There is, of course, no power of any kind beyond the few portable fusion or petroleum-driven generators the residents can provide and running water and a constant food supply or basic medical care is sporadic at best.

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The Lower Hive is the layer of the hive city that lies just above the Underhive. It is comprised of the city's industrial sectors and working class residential housing. The people of this level make up the majority of any hive city's population and are responsible for maintaining and operating the hive's manufactorums and power plants to keep the rest of the hive fed, clothed and productive. Even though the Lower Hive is home to the massive fusion plasma generators that provide the entire hive city's power production, the people of the Lower Hive must pay a premium for every watt of power they consume. This means that very few people in the Lower Hive can afford any luxuries. In general, the people of the Lower Hives do their work, raise their families as best they can, seek to keep clear of the machinations of the upper classes, maintain a deep if simple faith in the Emperor and the Imperial Cult and above all are grateful that they do not live in the Underhive.

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Sources:

• Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook (5th Edition)
  
• Warhammer 40,000: Dark Heresy Core Rulebook (RPG)

Under "Sammael":

Quote

Sammael's Jetbike is as deadly as its master, for it is armed with nose-mounted Storm Bolters and an underslung Plasma Cannon, itself an example of ill-understood technology, its fusion generator capable of powering many hundreds of shots.

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Sources:

• Codex: Dark Angels, pp. 43-45

Under "Adeptus Mechanicus":

Quote

Caretakers of the Generatorium: The advanced technology of the Imperium requires power and this power is supplied by Generatorums, large, nuclear fusion-based power plants. The creation and operation of the Generatoriums (power plants) containing the Generatorum are the function of the Adeptus Mechanicus and the information behind their operations and construction are closely guarded from outsiders.

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Sources:

• Dark Adeptus (Novel) by Ben Counter
  
• Dark Heresy Core Rulebook (RPG)
  
• Fanatic Magazine 5
  
• Mechanicum (Novel) by Graham McNeill
  
• Titan by Dan Abnett, Anthony Williams and Andy Lanning
  
• Warhammer 40,000 Codex Imperialis (2nd Edition)
  
• Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook (5th Edition)
  
• Xenology (Background Book)

So, based on the above, it seems that all of the power and non-power plasma production of the Imperium is through fusion, from everything from the lowly plasma pistol to the melta weapons (which are either plasma weapons or some form of maser weapon) up to the generators used by their starships and even the hive-cities and fortress-monasteries themselves.


Do you have any materials that specifically and explicitly state that these systems - particularly in the case of starships - are not fusion-based?
(And no, falling back on "it doesn't explicitly include the word 'fusion' in its description" doesn't count - it has to explicitly and unambiguously state that it is not fusion-based, as well as how the plasma is being produced if not through fusion.)

Edited by Strum Wealh, 02 March 2012 - 11:05 AM.

[Jack Gammel]

ExAstris, on 02 March 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

For example, the underlying notion of engagement seems to be empire duels under the stipulation that they were to find each other on the other's doorstep and fight to the pain (clear victory, but not neccessarily extermination/death. +10 points for everyone who knows the reference).

It looks like no one else has said it, so I might as well: Princess Bride. Everyone should know that.

[GDL Rahsan]

Strum Wealh, on 02 March 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

Okay.

Under "Weapons of the Imperium":


Under "Plasma Weapons":


Under "Plasma Pistol":


Under "Fortress-Monastery":


Under "Hive City":


Under "Sammael":


Under "Adeptus Mechanicus":


So, based on the above, it seems that all of the power and non-power plasma production of the Imperium is through fusion, from everything from the lowly plasma pistol to the melta weapons (which are either plasma weapons or some form of maser weapon) up to the generators used by their starships and even the hive-cities and fortress-monasteries themselves.

Hmm ok the Metla Weapons

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Melta Weapons are heat-based weapons which work by sub-atomic agitation of the air. Targets on the receiving end are heated to the point of being vaporised. The effect on flesh is fearsome to say the least, while vehicles can be reduced to molten slag. Most melta weapons use highly pressurized pyrum-petrol gases with a two part injection system which forces the gases into a molecular state, which will vaporise just about anything. Unfortunately, due to the high power consumption and range dissipation, the weapon is only effective over very short distances, but anything caught in the blast is likely to be destroyed.

Quote

Sources

• ¹: Warhammer 40,000: Wargear
  
• ²: Confrontation
  
• ³: Imperial Guard Codex 5th Edition
  
• ⁴: White Dwarf 356 (AU/NZ), p.10
  
• ⁵: Codex: Necrons (5th Edition) pg. 39
  
• ⁶: Rogue Trader: Battlefleet Koronus pg.8

So yes, Metla guns are either microwaves or fusion guns.

Plasma guns or pistols(( works the same))

Quote

A plasma gun is a generic term for a two handed, rifle like, plasma based weapon used by the forces of the Imperium as well as Chaos in a support role. The weapon fires a highly energised ball of hydrogen based plasma.¹ This plasma ball or 'bolt' is accelerated through a magnetic accelerator, which upon impact with the target detonates with the power of a small sun.¹ Generally Imperial models are prone to overheating and can cause severe injury or death to the user should they experience such a meltdown. Imperial Guardsmen consider it a dubious honor to be chosen as a squads plasma gunner for this exact reason.² Aesthetically they appear to be stubby and rather clunky, with a ribbed back and flared cooling vents along the front. Hydrogen flasks stick out of the butt, and bottom of the weapon.⁷ These flasks generally contains enough fuel for at least 10 shots before needing to be replaced.⁶ Replacing these flasks is time consuming and difficult in the best of situations.⁷ Handheld plasma guns can be found throughout the Imperial war machine, from the mighty Imperial Guard to the elite Space Marines.

Sources:

• Warhammer 40,000: Wargear
  
• ¹Imperial Armour Volume Five - The Siege of Vraks - Part One
  
• ²Codex: Imperial Guard (5th Edition) p. 69
  
• ³Codex: Space Marines (5th Edition)
  
• ⁴Codex: Tau Empire (4th Edition)
  
• ⁵Imperial Armour Volume Four - The Anphelion Project p. 136
  
• ⁶Warhammer 40,000 4th Edition Rulebook p. 34
  
• ⁷Warhammer 40,000 3rd Edition Rulebook p. 60
  
• ⁸Rogue Trader: Into the Storm p.114

I think you can count that as a fusion reaction? ((I am not sure exactly))

Plasma Weapons

Quote

Plasma Weapons operate by converting normal gases or fuel materials into an energized state of matter known as plasma, the stuff of the stars themselves.
When fired, the fuel material is energized into plasma and unleashed as brightly glowing "bolts" of pure energy. This energy is encased in a magnetic containment field that prevents the plasma "bolt" from dissipating before reaching its target. Once the plasma comes into contact with a solid material, the magnetic field ruptures, venting the superheated energy onto the target. The enemy is then vaporised.
Plasma is incredibly dangerous stuff. Imperial versions of the weapon are particularly unstable due to their imperfect designs. Overheating is prevented mainly by venting excess heat into the surrounding area due to a lack of proper cooling equipment. Even with this countermeasure, it is not uncommon for weapons to completely overheat or explode, killing or maiming the user. A plasma weapon struck or knocked out of a hand by a weapon hit will easily explode, killing its user.
Plasma guns and pistols use a plasma energizer to convert the ammunition supplied by gas containment flasks, which are good for about ten shots. Plasma cannons are typically powered by a generator of some sort.

Quote

Sources

• ¹ Warhammer 40,000: Wargear
  
• ² Codex: Eldar (4th Edition)
  
• ³ Confrontation
  
• ⁴ Warhammer 40,000 3rd Edition Rulebook

Fortress Monastery

Quote

Generatorum
The power source for the fortress-monastery on Lucan is a group of four huge crystal-piles which penetrate the surface of the planet and convert underground heat into energy via a phased crystal interface (presumably there are many other ways of generating energy on this scale, this is but one example of the possibilities).

Quote

Sources

• ¹: Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader

Actually the added parts of the fusion based plamsa generators is probably an opinion from the editor.Not to mention that a lot of the info in the first edition, which is Rogue Trader, got changed with the following editions

The page of the Hive City on the Lexicanum does not mention anything about power generators, As for

Quote

the few portable fusion or petroleum-driven generators

I think we have already stated that the Imperium do have fusion generators with them.
I went throught my Necromanda rule book sorrowfully it didn't mention anything about how do the Hives get their power from.

Again the Lexicanum does not mention how do the Sammael plasma cannon work.(( Yes they share the same source Codex:Dark Angels 4thedition))

And nope again nothing in the Adeptus page.(( And I do spy 3 BL titles on the WH40K wiki page of the Adeptus))

Quote

Do you have any materials that specifically and explicitly state that these systems - particularly in the case of starships - are not fusion-based?
(And no, falling back on "it doesn't explicitly include the word 'fusion' in its description" doesn't count - it has to explicitly and unambiguously state that it is not fusion-based, as well as how the plasma is being produced if not through fusion.)

Well here are the materials I have none seem to mention any fusion based plasma generators, which somehow some articles on the WH40K wiki seems to mention everytime they talk about a generator which seems to be an established fact there. As for falling back to the wording I am just reading what's in the codex and it says a plasma generator,and it appears that you are also falling back to the wording of using "fusion-based plasma generators", as for explaining how does it work the codex answer to this is plasma is lost technology and work on par with magic for the Imperium it appears. Further more I never claimed that I know how the plasma thing work I just said what was writtten on the codex which sounded like :"those ships are powered by plasma generators and how do the generators work? it's lost technology or maybe works by magic" and typing the word plasma generator in the WH40K wiki results in other entries that just state it's a "Plasma Generator". So does that mean there is fusion-based and un fusion-based plasma generators? And now if indeed they are fusion based can you tell me what is fusion in the WH40K and is it related to RL and if so how do they exactly work? Or at least do you have any sources, not the mention of them I mean ones which says they work by X and Y etc, that explains how do plasma work in the WH40K works? That would be really helpful for me and increase my already useless knowledge in the WH40K.

Edited by GDL Rahsan, 02 March 2012 - 10:25 PM.