74 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

Just for about 15 minutes yesterday the Black Knight and Mauler were listed as Omnimechs. What was quickly apparent to everyone was that this would turn the two mechs into junk with fixed ST Internals and Engines and likely Heat Sinks. A Mauler going 48 kph without 2xAC20's is not going to last too long came to mind and I thought is that why it's an Omnimech in MWO? To block the 2xAC20 load-out? Because the Mauler is pre-Omnimech.

Then the web page was edited for corrections and the Mauler became the super-uber standard mech that magically switches Endo and Engine and any Equipment for just the price of the parts in just a few seconds. Saved from MWO's growing omnimech trash heap. MWO's Omnimech Curse.

You can see where I am going here is that MWO's Omnimechs are so cursed with fixed equipment while the ancient tech standard mechs are so blessed and completely modifiable in seconds in Mechlab that no one would ever have bothered to make Omnimechs. The balancing becomes the complete inverse of the Battle Tech technology advances.

And it's not just Clan since Inner Sphere is getting close to some early Omnimechs which may well look like the Mauler omnimech from the typo.

So to reach some sort of balance which addresses the logical progress of Battlemech technologies in Battle Tech some of the Omnimech Equipment must also be modifiable and not just allowed on the ancient Inner Sphere mechs. Otherwise players will shun the new tech Omnimechs for the old and lower quality ancient Mech tech. There's an oxymoron, over-powered with low quality.

I suggest unfixing Omnimech Internal Structures, Armor Type, and some Jump-Jets and Heat Sinks. The Engine sizes should stay fixed since this prevents the Clan Frankenmechs from being made.

Something like this really has to be done to actually make Omnimechs a desirable advancement over standard mechs. Otherwise the mechs become the opposite of the lore and you get a Battle Tech where old, worn out tech is much better than the new latest tech.

[El Bandito]

Sure, if the Clanners give up the ability to swap omnipods between variants, I can agree with unlocking fixed items on those mechs. Gotta keep balance.

Remember, this game must keep asymmetrical balance, meaning newer should not be better. Frankly I think people who made TT had derped big time when they introduced flat-out superior Clan tech to the board game.

Edited by El Bandito, 01 May 2015 - 08:59 AM.

[Soy]

wat

[Lightfoot]

El Bandito, on 01 May 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

Sure, if the Clanners give up the ability to swap omnipods between variants, I can agree with unlocking fixed items on those mechs. Gotta keep balance.

Go look at the Mauler's specs and imagine it's an omnimech. The value of switching omnipods is only true if you can mount any weapon with the pod. You can't do that in MWO because MWO has Hard points and Battle Tech does not. So MWO's omnimechs are not true omnimechs either.

So the value of switching omnipods is over-rated since you can just find a standard variant with the hard points you need. Conversely the Omnimech Advantage of loading any weapon is easily and often blocked by PGI by just making all the left arms of an Omnimech have zero ballistic slots which is saving you all from the 2xUAC20 Mad Cat which is normally possible with a 375 XL Engine.

Edited by Lightfoot, 01 May 2015 - 09:09 AM.

[Scout Derek]

wut.

[El Bandito]

Lightfoot, on 01 May 2015 - 09:01 AM, said:

Go look at the Mauler's specs and imagine it's an omnimech. The value of switching omnipods is only true if you can mount any weapon with the pod. You can't do that in MWO because MWO has Hard points and Battle Tech does not. So MWO's omnimechs are not true omnimechs either.

My point still stands. Current balance is dictated by give-and-take formula where both sides' mechs have different disadvantages and advantages. You are proposing to remove a disadvantage from one side without compensating for the other side. Solely due to your belief that newer should be better--which shouldn't happen to an MP only game such as MWO.

Edited by El Bandito, 01 May 2015 - 09:08 AM.

[Lightfoot]

El Bandito, on 01 May 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

My point still stands. Current balance is dictated by give-and-take formula where both sides' mechs have different disadvantages and advantages. You are proposing to remove a disadvantage from one side without compensating for the other side. Solely due to your belief that newer should be better--which shouldn't happen to an MP only game such as MWO.

So the value of switching omnipods is over-rated since you can just find a standard variant with the hard points you need. Conversely the Omnimech Advantage of loading any weapon is easily and often blocked by PGI by just making all the left arms of an Omnimech have zero ballistic slots which is saving you all from the 2xUAC20 Mad Cat which is normally possible with a 375 XL Engine.

So the omnimechs are still bound by the same hard point restrictions as standard mechs. You just don't see it happening. PGI prevents any load-out they don't want on the Omnimechs just the same as if they were standard mechs.

Edited by Lightfoot, 01 May 2015 - 09:16 AM.

[Ragtag soldier]

do you people actually think whining that fixed omnimech components aren't fair because they don't let you do what you want with them is the reasonable thing here or are you mentally deficient? clans get to mix and max hard points, in exchange for fixed components. learn to make good builds around what you have, ya big babies.

if the engines and endo are such dealbreakers, go play with IS 'mechs again.

[El Bandito]

Lightfoot, on 01 May 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

So the value of switching omnipods is over-rated since you can just find a standard variant with the hard points you need. Conversely the Omnimech Advantage of loading any weapon is easily and often blocked by PGI by just making all the left arms of an Omnimech have zero ballistic slots which is saving you all from the 2xUAC20 Mad Cat which is normally possible with a 375 XL Engine.

So the omnimechs are still bound by the same restrictions as standard mechs. You just don't see it happening.

Yet Timbie is still God-tier mech. Tells you something. Besides, bad Clan mechs get quirks for compesnsation.

Edited by El Bandito, 01 May 2015 - 09:15 AM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

El Bandito, on 01 May 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

Sure, if the Clanners give up the ability to swap omnipods between variants, I can agree with unlocking fixed items on those mechs. Gotta keep balance.

Remember, this game must keep asymmetrical balance, meaning newer should not be better. Frankly I think people who made TT had derped big time when they introduced flat-out superior Clan tech to the board game.

IIRC the very people who introduced the Clans admitted that they'd messed up in interviews later.

[Lightfoot]

Well MWO has no Omnimechs actually. Why would anyone buy an Inner Sphere omnimech at this point? You just pick any old standard Inner Sphere mech with the desired hardpoints and modify it fully and then load it with I.S. ER Mediums and I.S UAC20's, which are all arriving soon.

Look ahead, not behind folks.

[Timuroslav]

You keep siting Battletech does this and that, but I'm pretty sure Battletech had fixed engine slots in omnipods for clan mechs.
Yes Clan mechs are restricted by critical slots, but they get compensated in the fact that their Weapons and Double Heatsinks, are not only Smaller but Lighter as well.

Also making a big fuss, over how it says omnipods, when it was probable an over looked typo. Most people who know those mechs know they do not have Omnipods. So calm the flip down.

[El Bandito]

Lightfoot, on 01 May 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

Well MWO has no Omnimechs actually. Why would anyone buy an Inner Sphere omnimech at this point? You just pick any old standard Inner Sphere mech with the desired hardpoints and modify it fully and then load it with I.S. ER Mediums and I.S UAC20's, which are all arriving soon.

Look ahead, not behind folks.

That is then. Here is now. When and if IS Omnis/Clan Battlemechs are released, PGI can change the rules to suit their agenda.

Edited by El Bandito, 01 May 2015 - 09:26 AM.

[Metus regem]

The problem is, in MWO they got it backwards, standard battlemechs should have hard points, and sized ones at that. This is simply due to the fact, and I’ll use the Mauler here as an example, the gaps in the side torso to let the barrels for 25-30mm cannons (AC/2) stick out should not be able to accommodate up to a 203mm AC/20. Same can be said for the Catapult K2, you shouldn’t be able to cram a Gauss or AC 20 into the same slot where an MG fits… Along with the hard points, they should have fixed engine sizes, internals and fixed equipment.

An Omni-mech should have “pod space” as in just free weight to mount their weapons and equipment, baring the hard wired equipment like jump jets on the Summoner, they should have locked slots to represent fixed locations for the bulk of armour and internals. They should also have engines, as they were built around that engine and only that engine, as well as locked internals, heat sink type and armour type.

This is all due to the fact that in universe the Omni-mech is a huge step forward for Battlemech design, but here with everyone having access to what amounts to a full on mech factory letting us do things that we wouldn’t be able to do in a hanger, going by both TT and in-universe reasoning, yet what we have has made the Battlemech the superior animal, when it just shouldn’t be so.

The real advantages of Omni-mechs is the quick refit and rearm for front line units, that’s a big deal, but since what we have here is battle, back to factory, in to battle again, that advantage is taken away from the Omni-mehcs.

[Mcgral18]

El Bandito, on 01 May 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

Yet Timbie is still God-tier mech. Tells you something. Besides, bad Clan mechs get quirks for compesnsation.

Tell us what Quirks offset losing half again as much pod space for Mr Gargles, at the cost of 5 Kph.

31 tons as opposed to 20 tons needs some pretty hefty quirks; armour and mobility would be fine.



Some omnimechs should be quirked to either add the tonnage of Endo, or simply swap Ferro for Endo, while giving fixed slots for mechs who have neither but want Endo. Restrict it if you want (Loki, Whale).
Mr Gargles saves 7 tons from moving to a 375, and the Myth Lynx becomes a respectable light if it had a engine 2 sizes up, on top of getting heat dissipation almost on par with IS lights (which it needs to pay 2 tons to match, because PoorDubs).


You could quirk those robots, give the Sub 250 robots (IS and Clam) heat dissipation buffs proportional to their required PoorDubs/lacking TrueDubs, weapon quirks to offset few hardpoints or tonnage (like how the Dragon mathematically mounts 6 AC5s) but that's alot of fudging around, without any downsides of moving slower or generating more heat.

Edited by Mcgral18, 01 May 2015 - 10:23 AM.

[Zoberraz]

Metus Regem has it right. MWO game mechanics have this backward, and the Inner Sphere modification scheme is pretty much what Omnimechs ought to have been like, while IS - at this point - were stuck with stock designs. Thats why variants were so amazing back then - because it wasn't easy for Inner Sphere mechwarriors to customize thier mechs at all.

Then came in the Clan Omnimechs, and those could swap out gear almost at will as far as thier pod space could support. That, in fact, was why the custom scheme in Mechwarrior 2 (PC) was the way it was. Problem was then that the Clanners had set the initial standard, and that anything beyond that would have to follow suit otherwise people wouldn't understand the lore reason why their Commando in MW2 Mercenaries couldn't be customized.

[Metus regem]

Zoberraz, on 01 May 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

Metus Regem has it right. MWO game mechanics have this backward, and the Inner Sphere modification scheme is pretty much what Omnimechs ought to have been like, while IS - at this point - were stuck with stock designs. Thats why variants were so amazing back then - because it wasn't easy for Inner Sphere mechwarriors to customize thier mechs at all.

heh, in the current TT campaign I'm in, my pilot (and his merc unit) have dumped close to 50 million C-bills taking his WHM-6R, and giving it a LFE, Blazers rather than PPC's, DHS, ECM and Stealth armour.... She's beastly now, but yikes, that was a lot of C-bills and mech down time for me character...

[Gyrok]

El Bandito, on 01 May 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

My point still stands. Current balance is dictated by give-and-take formula where both sides' mechs have different disadvantages and advantages. You are proposing to remove a disadvantage from one side without compensating for the other side. Solely due to your belief that newer should be better--which shouldn't happen to an MP only game such as MWO.

Who says there is an imbalance in doing that? It would not make the good clan mechs better, it would make the bad robots better though.

The "good" clan mechs already have ES...

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

El Bandito, on 01 May 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

Sure, if the Clanners give up the ability to swap omnipods between variants, I can agree with unlocking fixed items on those mechs. Gotta keep balance.

Remember, this game must keep asymmetrical balance, meaning newer should not be better. Frankly I think people who made TT had derped big time when they introduced flat-out superior Clan tech to the board game.

So speaking of balance, we're locking IS engines to stock speeds and making AC's burst fire, right?

[Fate 6]

Gyrok, on 01 May 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

Who says there is an imbalance in doing that? It would not make the good clan mechs better, it would make the bad robots better though.

The "good" clan mechs already have ES...

Nova has no room for ES, Ice Ferret and lights already have it, Mad Dog doesn't need it nor does the Hellbringer. In fact there's only 3 mechs (Summoner, Gargoyle, Warhawk) that would remotely benefit from it and even then the Warhawk doesn't need tonnage as much as it needs crit slots.

00ohDstruct, on 01 May 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

So speaking of balance, we're locking IS engines to stock speeds and making AC's burst fire, right?

Yeah, if IS also gets Clan XL engine benefits and reduced AC tonnage and increased laser damage/range. See, it's give and take, asymmetrical balance. Each side has advantages, and most actually good players agree the Clans get the most advantages.

PS - yes, if you think Clans do not have superior mechs I am calling you a bad player. It's not an insult, it's just a fact. Some players just aren't good at this game, it's nothing to get mad about.

Edited by Fate 6, 01 May 2015 - 12:03 PM.