39 replies to this topic

[Wabbit Swaya]

I'm thinking FWL is more 'Merica than Davion. divided and always in-fighting,

Davion reminds me more of Western Europe in various time periods, in particular Great Britain during the height of the British Empire. Thinks it has dominion over everything, and flexes it's muscle to make a show that it does (the only 'merican quality it has). But the British Empire did the same, and it's a monarchy.

Sorry, it's Sunday morning, a little scatter-brained, can't make my words work.

[SpiralFace]

Smoke Jag are aggressive as well as aggravating for anyone given they are essentially the "power gamers" of the clans that do ANYTHING to get what they want and justify it in roundabout ways. But because of it, TECHNICALLY what they do isn't considered wrong by clan law, which is why while many of the other clans regard the Jags as bullies and a bunch of people that skirt the clan law to their benefit WAY too much, they still are considered a solid member of the clans, and are actually respected in just as many circles as they are feared.

Its all different shades of grey.

There are no "bad guy" factions, only "bad people."

Sometimes the bad people command a small merc unit that does terrible things like a 30th century "Black Water" PMC, sometimes its a local ruler trying to overstep his bounds to get more power, and sometimes its a megalomaniac House ruler who starts unprovoked wars of aggression on his wedding day for the sole reason that he wants to see a rival house burn.

[Satan n stuff]

SpiralFace, on 03 May 2015 - 05:24 AM, said:

Smoke Jag are aggressive as well as aggravating for anyone given they are essentially the "power gamers" of the clans that do ANYTHING to get what they want and justify it in roundabout ways. But because of it, TECHNICALLY what they do isn't considered wrong by clan law, which is why while many of the other clans regard the Jags as bullies and a bunch of people that skirt the clan law to their benefit WAY too much, they still are considered a solid member of the clans, and are actually respected in just as many circles as they are feared.

Its all different shades of grey.

There are no "bad guy" factions, only "bad people."

Sometimes the bad people command a small merc unit that does terrible things like a 30th century "Black Water" PMC, sometimes its a local ruler trying to overstep his bounds to get more power, and sometimes its a megalomaniac House ruler who starts unprovoked wars of aggression on his wedding day for the sole reason that he wants to see a rival house burn.

Who doesn't love a good barbeque?

[Richard Hazen]

Wabbit Swaya, on 03 May 2015 - 05:21 AM, said:

I'm thinking FWL is more 'Merica than Davion. divided and always in-fighting,

Davion reminds me more of Western Europe in various time periods, in particular Great Britain during the height of the British Empire. Thinks it has dominion over everything, and flexes it's muscle to make a show that it does (the only 'merican quality it has). But the British Empire did the same, and it's a monarchy.

Sorry, it's Sunday morning, a little scatter-brained, can't make my words work.

Yeah just read in the article on Sarna that Davion's structure resembles the UKs pre-first exodus and the FWL does kind of remind me of all the states within the US fighting amongst one another for power. Equally I agree though that the FWL could easily represent the European Union.

Edited by Deimos Alpha, 03 May 2015 - 09:22 AM.

[InRev]

The Clans always seem to get a free pass for being a eugenicist and heavily class-based culture which, theoretically, should be complete anathema to anyone educated in the Western world.

They are, essentially, the closest things to Space Fascists that exists in this IP, and I don't use that term lightly, despite the fact that it has lost its true value due to its use as a catchphrase to criticize the political right. The Clans are fascist because:

1) they usually prioritize the state above all else
2) they use war as an ends rather than a means. For them, war is not the "continuation of politics", but rather politics are an aspect of war. Operation Revival is just the ultimate expression of this. The Clans are military states
3) the glorification and creation of a "master race" although not strictly fascist, per se, is definitely an element of early 20th century dictatorial powers (I think we can all guess which). The use of eugenics to further this program should be a red flag, but people love to gloss over it, it seems, and even adopt the use of genetic perjoratives. With the human race's checkered racial history and the long struggle of for the rights of the disabled, that anyone would actually use epithets based on genetics is absolutely abhorrent, but they do.
4) a warrior caste being dominant over the others is also a hallmark of the military dictatorships of fascist nations
5) ultimately, might makes right in the Clans. Very fascist.

For these reasons, and many, many, many more, I cannot stand the clans and those who RP them. For me, it's just as bad as people who like to dress up in SS uniforms and roleplay at reenactments.

The Clans aren't evil because of the Invasion. They are evil because of everything in their culture that led to the invasion.

(if you're just a merc that wants to use Clan mechs in CW, none of this need apply)

[KuroNyra]

InRev, on 03 May 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

For these reasons, and many, many, many more, I cannot stand the clans and those who RP them. For me, it's just as bad as people who like to dress up in SS uniforms and roleplay at reenactments.

For the SS, ok. Largely understandable. No one can like theses guys...

But come on, we are talkiing about a fictionnal faction in a fictionnal universe!
Heck you have tons of guy playing the stormtroopers who are basicly the bad guys in star wars!

[Coralld]

InRev, on 03 May 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

The Clans always seem to get a free pass for being a eugenicist and heavily class-based culture which, theoretically, should be complete anathema to anyone educated in the Western world.

They are, essentially, the closest things to Space Fascists that exists in this IP, and I don't use that term lightly, despite the fact that it has lost its true value due to its use as a catchphrase to criticize the political right. The Clans are fascist because:

1) they usually prioritize the state above all else
2) they use war as an ends rather than a means. For them, war is not the "continuation of politics", but rather politics are an aspect of war. Operation Revival is just the ultimate expression of this. The Clans are military states
3) the glorification and creation of a "master race" although not strictly fascist, per se, is definitely an element of early 20th century dictatorial powers (I think we can all guess which). The use of eugenics to further this program should be a red flag, but people love to gloss over it, it seems, and even adopt the use of genetic perjoratives. With the human race's checkered racial history and the long struggle of for the rights of the disabled, that anyone would actually use epithets based on genetics is absolutely abhorrent, but they do.
4) a warrior caste being dominant over the others is also a hallmark of the military dictatorships of fascist nations
5) ultimately, might makes right in the Clans. Very fascist.

For these reasons, and many, many, many more, I cannot stand the clans and those who RP them. For me, it's just as bad as people who like to dress up in SS uniforms and roleplay at reenactments.

The Clans aren't evil because of the Invasion. They are evil because of everything in their culture that led to the invasion.

(if you're just a merc that wants to use Clan mechs in CW, none of this need apply)

Spot on.

However, Clan Diamond Shark (formally known as Clan Sea Fox) is probably the most anti-Clan, Clan... You know what I mean.
First and formost, despite having a "cast system," its in name only as anyone can switch between jobs and duties as they wish. Even a Freeborn can become a Warrior if they survive sense Clan training has a high attrition rates, and become someone with political standing even if their previous job was scrubbing toilets.
With the Diamond Sharks, Free and Trueborn intermingle with each other freely, so no one actually cares if Jack, a Truborn, hangs out with his buddy Tim, a Freeborn, and go to the local bar and shoot some pool. In any other Clan, this would be a huge no no, probably have Tim killed and Jack put on the lowest rungs of Clan society.
Also, Clan Diamond Shark is not ruled by the warriors. However at one point the Crusaders with in the Clans did take control and made them more like the other space fascists Clans, however, after the invasion and during the IS assault on Clan Smoke Jags, the Diamond Sharks reevaluated them selves and ouster all the Crusaders, going back to being stanch Warderns and returning to how they were before.

Clan Diamond Shark eventually move into the IS as wandering tradesman and have strong ties with the Wolves in Exile and House Davion.

Clan Diamond Shark is the only Clan I like because they are the least Clan like.

Edited by Coralld, 03 May 2015 - 11:34 AM.

[Repasy Cooper]

There are good & bad guys in every faction, depending on your relative view in the Battletech universe.

Except for the Word Of Blake. Fanaticism is bad no matter how you twist it, lol.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Even the fabled Star League, which everyone in the IS and the Clans idolize for its former glory, had some douchebag moves. The most infamous being that its first big move once it was created, was to turn around and use military force on the periphery states bordering the Inner Sphere to bring them into the League against their wishes. Ironically this resulted years later in Stefan Amaris (from a periphery nation) scheming to get close to Richard Cameron, the First Lord of the Star League, allowing him to later assassinate Richard and bring about the fall of the Star League. Lots of gray in BT.

[Sniper09121986]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 02 May 2015 - 07:11 PM, said:

Bad Guys, in something close to descending order:

Word of Blake
Liao
Smoke Jaguar
Jade Falcon
Kurita
Marik
Steiner
ComStar
Wolf
Ghost Bear
Rasalhague
Davion

No everyone's favourite nuke-pooping cyberzombies? Fixed for you Also there is Republic of the Sphere (not at this moment of timeline), but I am not sure where to put them.

[Coralld]

Repasy, on 03 May 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

There are good & bad guys in every faction, depending on your relative view in the Battletech universe.

Except for the Word Of Blake. Fanaticism is bad no matter how you twist it, lol.

DIRKA DIRKA ALA BLAKE JIHAD!!

[Rogue Jedi]

It all comes down to point of view

e.g. the reason Hans Davion launched the 4th succession war was because Maximilian Liao tried to replace Hans with a double and had launched a number of purges in of his own subjects since taking power. so after uniting Davion and Steiner he had the force to remove someone he considered a madman who posed a dire threat to hot only the Federated Suns but also the subjects of Liao's Capelian Confederacy.
Davion was trying to protect Liao but in the eyes of Liao he was an evil invader.

if you are a crusader Clanner than the IS are bad guys and the Wolf Dragoons are traitors.

If you are a warden Clanner than the Crusaders are the bad guys.

If you belong to an IS state who got hit by the Clans then the invading Clans are definitely the bad guys.

if you are not part of house Marek then Liao are bad guys.

if you are with House Liao then Steiner, Davion and St Ives are bad guys

[xengk]

Coralld, on 03 May 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

DIRKA DIRKA ALA BLAKE JIHAD!!

[Coralld]

Rogue Jedi, on 03 May 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

It all comes down to point of view

e.g. the reason Hans Davion launched the 4th succession war was because Maximilian Liao tried to replace Hans with a double and had launched a number of purges in of his own subjects since taking power. so after uniting Davion and Steiner he had the force to remove someone he considered a madman who posed a dire threat to hot only the Federated Suns but also the subjects of Liao's Capelian Confederacy.
Davion was trying to protect Liao but in the eyes of Liao he was an evil invader.

if you are a crusader Clanner than the IS are bad guys and the Wolf Dragoons are traitors.

If you are a warden Clanner than the Crusaders are the bad guys.

If you belong to an IS state who got hit by the Clans then the invading Clans are definitely the bad guys.

if you are not part of house Marek then Liao are bad guys.

if you are with House Liao then Steiner, Davion and St Ives are bad guys

Your forgetting one...

No matter which side you are on, the Word of Blake are all ways the bad guys.

You know what, not even thats right, because even with in the Word of Blake, they fear ROM!!

For those who are not familiar with BT/MW lore, here is a link for you about ROM.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ROM
These are very and I mean VERY spooky people.

[TripleEhBeef]

FYI ^That Guy^ is secretly ruling the Free Worlds League right now.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Sniper09121986, on 03 May 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

No everyone's favourite nuke-pooping cyberzombies? Fixed for you Also there is Republic of the Sphere (not at this moment of timeline), but I am not sure where to put them.

I omitted them for the same reason I omitted the Republic of the Sphere and most of the Clans - they're not yet relevant to MWO due to the timeline.

[Koniving]

Deimos Alpha, on 02 May 2015 - 04:33 PM, said:

So is any one truly bad or is every one in grey areas of morality?

Not in FASA's Battletech. In WizKidz's Battletech, there were a few rather blatant 'true evils'. Don't know about Catalyst's Battletech.

"Right and wrong are not what separate us and our enemies. It's our different standpoints, our perspectives that separate us. Both sides blame one another. There's no good or bad side. Just two sides holding different views." Squall; FF VIII.



"I firmly believe any good or realistic story has no clear cut good or evil; just really good propaganda." ~ Koniving 5/3/2015

[InspectorG]

InRev, on 03 May 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

The Clans always seem to get a free pass for being a eugenicist and heavily class-based culture which, theoretically, should be complete anathema to anyone educated in the Western world.

They are, essentially, the closest things to Space Fascists that exists in this IP, and I don't use that term lightly, despite the fact that it has lost its true value due to its use as a catchphrase to criticize the political right. The Clans are fascist because:

1) they usually prioritize the state above all else
2) they use war as an ends rather than a means. For them, war is not the "continuation of politics", but rather politics are an aspect of war. Operation Revival is just the ultimate expression of this. The Clans are military states
3) the glorification and creation of a "master race" although not strictly fascist, per se, is definitely an element of early 20th century dictatorial powers (I think we can all guess which). The use of eugenics to further this program should be a red flag, but people love to gloss over it, it seems, and even adopt the use of genetic perjoratives. With the human race's checkered racial history and the long struggle of for the rights of the disabled, that anyone would actually use epithets based on genetics is absolutely abhorrent, but they do.
4) a warrior caste being dominant over the others is also a hallmark of the military dictatorships of fascist nations
5) ultimately, might makes right in the Clans. Very fascist.

For these reasons, and many, many, many more, I cannot stand the clans and those who RP them. For me, it's just as bad as people who like to dress up in SS uniforms and roleplay at reenactments.

The Clans aren't evil because of the Invasion. They are evil because of everything in their culture that led to the invasion.

(if you're just a merc that wants to use Clan mechs in CW, none of this need apply)

InRev, on 03 May 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

The Clans always seem to get a free pass for being a eugenicist and heavily class-based culture which, theoretically, should be complete anathema to anyone educated in the Western world.

They are, essentially, the closest things to Space Fascists that exists in this IP, and I don't use that term lightly, despite the fact that it has lost its true value due to its use as a catchphrase to criticize the political right. The Clans are fascist because:

1) they usually prioritize the state above all else
2) they use war as an ends rather than a means. For them, war is not the "continuation of politics", but rather politics are an aspect of war. Operation Revival is just the ultimate expression of this. The Clans are military states
3) the glorification and creation of a "master race" although not strictly fascist, per se, is definitely an element of early 20th century dictatorial powers (I think we can all guess which). The use of eugenics to further this program should be a red flag, but people love to gloss over it, it seems, and even adopt the use of genetic perjoratives. With the human race's checkered racial history and the long struggle of for the rights of the disabled, that anyone would actually use epithets based on genetics is absolutely abhorrent, but they do.
4) a warrior caste being dominant over the others is also a hallmark of the military dictatorships of fascist nations
5) ultimately, might makes right in the Clans. Very fascist.

For these reasons, and many, many, many more, I cannot stand the clans and those who RP them. For me, it's just as bad as people who like to dress up in SS uniforms and roleplay at reenactments.

The Clans aren't evil because of the Invasion. They are evil because of everything in their culture that led to the invasion.

(if you're just a merc that wants to use Clan mechs in CW, none of this need apply)

Valid point but I think Clans could also be viewed as a tribal throwback that was intended to be an alternative to the more feudal or mercantile IS.

I view them more as Genghis's horde.
The eugenics more a technological advancement rather than a social one. Were the eugenics more from an ideal, or a specialized function?

Just like reallife if 2 cultures clash and one doesnt completely dominate/eradicate the other, they tend to mingle and blend in various manners to create new cultures.

Also , historically, mercenaries also had great ability to be evil. The East India Company of old and the recent Academi/Blackwater/etc types.

[Bloodweaver]

Wabbit Swaya, on 03 May 2015 - 05:21 AM, said:

I'm thinking FWL is more 'Merica than Davion. divided and always in-fighting,

Davion reminds me more of Western Europe in various time periods, in particular Great Britain during the height of the British Empire. Thinks it has dominion over everything, and flexes it's muscle to make a show that it does (the only 'merican quality it has). But the British Empire did the same, and it's a monarchy.

Sorry, it's Sunday morning, a little scatter-brained, can't make my words work.

No, you're right about Davion. It's supposed to be a throwback to both England and France during the Hundred Years War, more than anything. Strong elements of the British Empire too, though.

Marik, though, is not America at all, apart from the similar name and the idea of "freedom." It's a mixture of, primarily, the modern Balkans, the Holy Roman Empire, and the Byzantine Empire. There is no real stability, the region is always fragmented along political/ethnic/religious/whatever lines, there is immense ethnic and cultural diversity, and the region is more a producer of weapons that other factions use in their wars against each other than it is a participant in those wars itself(although there is plenty of internalized civil warfare).

As for the focus on "freedom," a lot of BT fans see that and get the wrong idea. The FWL is not at all a proponent of individual freedom for its citizens. The FWL is free in the sense that its ruling house (Marik) exercises very little political authority over its subject states. Each planet is more or less sovereign, but in an alliance with Marik. That's an over-simplification, and it's actually less true in the current timeline than it used to be, but there you are. There is very little freedom guaranteed to each individual FWL citizen, unless he happens to live on a specific FWL planet that exercises such ideals. There are plenty of planets in the FWL that rule by military dictatorship, too.

InRev, on 03 May 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

The Clans always seem to get a free pass for being a eugenicist and heavily class-based culture which, theoretically, should be complete anathema to anyone educated in the Western world.

They are, essentially, the closest things to Space Fascists that exists in this IP, and I don't use that term lightly, despite the fact that it has lost its true value due to its use as a catchphrase to criticize the political right. The Clans are fascist because:

1) they usually prioritize the state above all else
2) they use war as an ends rather than a means. For them, war is not the "continuation of politics", but rather politics are an aspect of war. Operation Revival is just the ultimate expression of this. The Clans are military states
3) the glorification and creation of a "master race" although not strictly fascist, per se, is definitely an element of early 20th century dictatorial powers (I think we can all guess which). The use of eugenics to further this program should be a red flag, but people love to gloss over it, it seems, and even adopt the use of genetic perjoratives. With the human race's checkered racial history and the long struggle of for the rights of the disabled, that anyone would actually use epithets based on genetics is absolutely abhorrent, but they do.
4) a warrior caste being dominant over the others is also a hallmark of the military dictatorships of fascist nations
5) ultimately, might makes right in the Clans. Very fascist.

For these reasons, and many, many, many more, I cannot stand the clans and those who RP them. For me, it's just as bad as people who like to dress up in SS uniforms and roleplay at reenactments.

The Clans aren't evil because of the Invasion. They are evil because of everything in their culture that led to the invasion.

(if you're just a merc that wants to use Clan mechs in CW, none of this need apply)

lol

[Alec Braca]

Aegic, on 03 May 2015 - 03:48 AM, said:

IS FREEBIRTHS WHO SULLIED OUR HOME ARE THE BAD GUYS

Your home is the Kerensky cluster and Pentagon worlds. No one wanted you back here.