43 replies to this topic

[Quaamik]

Alistair Winter, on 03 May 2015 - 07:44 AM, said:

.....Now, I don't know how other people deal with using complex weapon combinations, like different weapon types distributed between arms and torso. But if I have a mech like the Hellbringer, with 2xERPPC in the arms, SSRM6 in the torso, 3 lasers in the torso and 2 MGs in the torso, then I'll generally try to combine two weapon types in the torso in a single group. .
....

Normally I'll delete he weapons systems I'm not going to like using, or that find ineffective, and replace the with other upgrades. In the case of the Hellbringer, it would leave me with 2xERPPC in the arms, SSRM6 in the torso and 3 lasers in the torso. The added space would go to heat sinks to cool the ERPPCs faster. Then, I'd likely swap the SSRM for an LRM to suit it better for long range and match with the ERPPCs. But then I have a 5 button mouse which lets me comfortably run 3 or 4 weapons groups and still slave one button for module use (zoom or arty)
.

However, If the mech design can support it, I prefer to slave the primary direct fire weapons on the right side of the mech to the right mouse button and those on the left to the left mouse button. In that case, with the Hellbringer above, I'd have 4 weapons groups - 1 for each ERPPC, 1 for the missile launcher and 1 for the torso lasers, with the MGs thrown away for added heat sinks.

Edited by Quaamik, 03 May 2015 - 08:09 AM.

[ROSS-128]

Alistair Winter, on 03 May 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

It's more a question of whether you want to take the SRM6 off for extra lasers and heatsinks. In the current state of the game, it makes sense to sacrifice the SRM6 to get that extra heatsink in, or to swap an LL with an LPL, for example. But that trade-off is not inherent to the system, it's just a result of the current weapon balance and the current quirks.

And only 15 slots of crit space, which is a huge deal if you're running DHS. That's a domino effect that'll roll through the rest of the build. By taking out the SRM-6 and its two tons of ammo you save 5 tons, then you only need to shave a half-ton of armor to get a 325 engine. That engine can hold an extra heat sink, meaning you've just bought yourself a total of 7 extra crit slots to work with (four from the SRM+ammo, three from the DHS moved into the engine).

That crit space will get you two more DHS, which any 3S build that utilizes most of its hardpoints and all of its tonnage will need badly. The only other way to get that crit space is to drop one of your LLs down to an ML (the "95 ton Hunchback" build), and use that weight to up your engine instead (the fifth ton comes from the extra DHS you won't be able to equip). That'll buy you 4 slots of crit space, meaning you're still stuck with one less DHS than a build that drops its SRM, and you had to drop one of your your LLs to get it.

So now you're running hotter, while also lacking the extra kick a the extra Large Laser would bring. But hey, you've got that SRM-6 that you'll hardly ever use. Also once you fill up all your crit space in both cases you end up with one ton left over that you can use to bump the 325 to a 330, just because.

[Chuck Jager]

Khobai, on 02 May 2015 - 08:57 PM, said:

The point is quirks should be rewarding you for using stock loadouts... or something approximating the stock loadout. quirks should not reward you for boating and meta builds.

Stock loadouts are BAD at best on the majority of Mechs. You would have to give every other mech on the team quirks to still help out every time someone uses a stock load out. I could care less about lore and all I ever see is the problems it causes because XY and Z happened on a printed page while we are playing in an electronic medium. This is compounded by the fact that TT and lore have existed and grown up side by side and many people expect that to work the same way in this game. This is a fictional game and all fiction has to take liberties to work. If the lore is treated as fact then liberties will need to be taken. (note I am not anti lore, it is just not a priority for in game balance)

Boating is influenced by the fact that people are rewarded by getting the highest damage. This is done by maximizing your output and waiting until you see a chance to engage where those weapons work best. I do think this many times kills team play, but it is the nature of the beast of online games. Options that would help this would be making the ranges and damage across the weapons groups so similar that any mix of weapons yields a good output throughout a match in various terrain and distances. I do not think we want this.

Boating is the outcome of good design that maximizes the damage in the places that the mech and the environment work best. The creative part is what new ways can you squeeze extra performance out of your design to increase its output within the parameters given. If following lore is a design parameter. The devs have done a good job of making those options exist. This option even with quirks is just not effective and it will not close the gap between the tiers. The quirks are assumed to be a tool to correct the gap between performance output without nerfs. So if pre quirks boating/specialized builds affected the performance differences and according to lore (as per the design of the clan mechs) boating lasers and the range bonuses tipped the balance further, it makes sense to have quirks that allow mechs to mirror the performance of those at or near the top. Some of the quirks (AKA Stalker LLas and FSA 7smpls) did the most good by just highlighting a great build that would still be good minus the quirks (Stalker probably 5 llas at most).

Balance is very tricky. Every individual whether a player or PGI employee has different elements that they focus on. It is almost impossible to rate these differences as facts or perceptions and then assign a hierarchy of importance. Unfortunately even little changes can cause unforeseen outcomes in technical performance, damage output, pleasure derived, animosity created and income generated. Most good changes still have some bad outcomes that everyone has to live with. I treat it like ordering a pizza with a large group of people. I can say what I like, but in the end I can eat what is delivered with the group or go get something else.

I do want to say well thought out with good suggestions on the OPs original post.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Quaamik, on 03 May 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

Absolutely agreed.

Quirks I have not seen, but think should be included on the table (all on specific mechs, not across the board).
- minimum range reduction for LRMs and PPCs.
- maximum range increases for LRM.
- hill climb increases (like changing the movement arch type).
- heat / movement quirks for significantly oversized or undersized engines.
- maximum range increase for SRMs / Streaks (especially on single hard point variants)
- sensor range and lock speed quirks
- negative quirks for weapons well outside what it was intended to carry. Example, a large AC on a Raven.
- ECM quirks.
-- ECM reductions for mechs where ECM is more intended to cover itself only.
-- ECM disrupt range increases for mechs intended to detect enemy ECM
-- ECM range increases for mechs intended to shield groups, possibly tied to when they only had certain weapons making them less a threat offensively. Such as the Raven-3L, but only when it had no more than 2 lasers and 1 SRM / SSRM (not counting TAG and Narc) {stock is 2 ML, 1 SRM 6, 1 TAG, 1 Narc, 1 BAP and ECM}

They do have missile range quirks, both general and specific. IIRC one of the Panthers can get its SRM packs to hit well past 300m (325ish?). I remember this clearly because I was able to use that fact to pop a cannon generator in a CW match a few weeks back.

As for ECM quirks, I'd much rather PGI reworked the entire electronic warfare system before messing with it via quirks. ECM as it stands is simply bad gameplay. Hard counters are terrble. Soft counters are where they should move it to. Have ECM impose debuffs, and have TAG, NARC, Artemis IV, etc., provide buffs, and have each unique buff/debuff type stack. Boom, instant fix that makes every electronic warfare item useful, without being overpowered - ECM included.