70 replies to this topic

[Wyndstar]

So, I'm a newer player than most on these forums. I was introduced to the game in November, and have been playing since. I liked the direction of the game and was happy to buy the packs that have been released since I joined. In that time I've dipped in and out of community warfare. I'm in a small unit of 5 people, and we usually drop as less than that. I spend a lot of time in the pug queue as well.

It has been a few months since I dropped in CW, and with this event and the recent minor upping of heat values to some of the better mechs I decided to try it out again. And, um, wow this is not fun.

The new maps especially are super cramped and don't allow for any sort of tactics. The game is simply a matter of peeking and shooting with lasers, focusing down the fastest. ECM is everywhere, so radar is useless. Basic rule of thumb is every time you see a hellbringer (most of what you will see), just target the left torso. I've heard the designers put missiles in this game, not sure I've seen them. And where could they fire anyway, we are tiny children in giant mazes of crystal or metal. I've won exactly half of the matches I've dropped in, and have hated being on the winning or losing side. There is NOTHING at all to CW other than peeking around corners in cramped maps and shooting or being shot by lasers.

It seems to me that as long as we have ammo, CW maps should be more friendly to ammo based builds. Hotter maps and more open space. Instead it is nothing but fight for the choke point, then the winning side spawn camps till we've won. Wow. Deep game there. It sucks to win. It sucks to lose. It is just an awful design.

So when the event is over I'll head back to the PUG queue. Sure, sometimes you get a roll (in your favor or against) there. But at least there you see a variety of weapons. There is no spawn camping. The maps are more open. Even in the great Nascar people will pull cool tactics setting up an ambush or lights that get really good at picking off the stragglers. Still a little too much ECM there now a days, and there are things I would wish they would improve. But overall the normal queue is a game with some variety. The smile I get when dropping with a guass build on mordor.... or an ac build in the canyons....

CW, CW is just laser-peek-a-boo online. And that is a terrible game.

[Armorine]

Hear ye hear ye!!!! This man speaks truth! While I can't completely agree with him he has courage in his hear and is an aspiring warrior!

Forum fun aside. I agree the amount of laser vomit gets annoying. A Very easy fix would be to put in mid game rearming points. You'd see a lot more ballistic based builds then. Ammo is a rare commodity in a 30 minute match.

[Tarl Cabot]

The laser vomit is due to the instant dot and long range fights on the CW maps vs the brawlie-type public queue maps.

I would support a velocity increase on ammo base weapons as well as a slight increase on ammo/ton. I mean, these are BT military-grade weapons, not arbalest/ballista-type, slow flying weapons.

[Hit the Deck]

It's because in CW, the maps are more open, larger, and you should have a lot of staying power (everyone has four 'mechs). This favor quick to hit long range weapons like ER lasers and Gauss.

[Alistair Winter]

MWO is one of my all time favourite games, I play it hours upon hours, week after week.

I can't bring myself to play CW at all. I didn't even play a single match this weekend. And yeah, the laservomit meta is partially to blame, but the major issue is just a boring game mode and badly designed maps. So many players are talking about adding depth to CW, adding new features. But ultimately, the maps and the game mode is the foundation of CW. You build the features around the core. As long as the core is fundamentally unappealing, no amount of dropship upgrades, top unit leaderboards, faction titles or decals are going to make a difference.

Where pub matches are a success just by virtue of having very entertaining mech on mech combat, CW is so fundamentally flawed that it's simply not enough.

Having thought about this for a while, I'm now more and more skeptical about the future of MWO, because PGI seems intent on pouring more and more money into CW in the hope of turning an initial failure into a success in the end. This is called "throwing good money after bad". I don't think it will work, unless they address the core issues.

[FupDup]

Laser popularity is because of several reasons. In no particular order of magnitude or significance:

1. Lasers are at least moderately effective in all situations, while many other weapons are niche one-trick-ponies that are excellent in one situation but craptastic in any other situation. Laser vomit can respond to almost anything, even if it's not optimal at any one job. Lasers are, for the most part, generalist-type weapons. this is especially useful in the chaotic and unpredictable Puglandia™.

2. CW's multi-wave setup has made ammo-dependent builds less desirable for the most part.

3. Lasers require a lower tonnage investment than any other weapon category, and they provide the most efficient damage per ton out of anything. Mechs with low tonnage can use lasers very easily, while ballistics are mostly restricted to larger mechs and missiles are either mediocre (LRMs) or highly niche (SRMs).

4. Clan lasers are just awesome weapons for the most part.

5. The Mad Cat and Doomcrow, with their large engines and big alphas, have forced many IS mechs to make a decision. IS mechs have to either use a big XL engine to match their speed, or they need to use a STD engine to match their survivability. In either case, those engines eat up a lot of tonnage...and lasers just so happen to require relatively low tonnage (see point #3).

6. Some weapons like ACs and PPCs have been nerfed, removing some of the competition that lasers used to have.

7. Some lasers have been buffed, most notably IS Pulse Lasers (which used to be garbage, but are now usable). The Clan LPL in particular got pampered pretty hard with its 13 damage. It's pure testosterone-fueled beastmode now, stronger than it was even at the release of Wave 1.

8. Some mechs received significant laser quirks, such as everybody's favorite Stalker variant.

9. Lasers have a low skill floor, while most projectile weapons are harder to use and miss their target much more often due to slow projectile speeds (see point #6). They are easy to learn, and yet they do also have a decent skill ceiling that gives a lot of room to git gud with them.

Edited by FupDup, 26 May 2015 - 07:05 PM.

[Chagatay]

Laser vomit is just an expression of current weapon balance.

The main issues with non laser weapons are listed below:

LRMs
Generally hated by most of the community and are very bad in terms of damage per ton. The longer matches makes it so that LRM platforms fail to last for more than one wave. The prevalence of ECM and good cover on most maps basically hurts this weapon system as well.

SRMs
Decent damage per ton but requires extremely short ranges to be effective (not always possible in CW).

MGs/Flamers
Too little damage/range for what they do.

LBX/Clan UACs
Damage spread is terrible. Low effectiveness per ton.

IS ACs
Decent damage, ok damage per ton. A preferred weapon system for hot maps (Sulfur/Forge)

Gauss
Preferred weapon for long range engagements. Low heat and high damage makes this weapon meta in all respects. Pairs well with lasers.

SSRMs
Effective versus lighter mechs especially ones that seem to teleport around. Ineffective against anything bigger than a medium as they don't kill fast enough.

Edited by Chagatay, 26 May 2015 - 07:00 PM.

[Gyrok]

Clans also tend to have lots of hardlocked DHS, which makes it less efficient to run something that does not utilize those...(i.e. energy weapons). So, clans, especially, are predisposed to energy builds.

[FupDup]

Gyrok, on 26 May 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

Clans also tend to have lots of hardlocked DHS, which makes it less efficient to run something that does not utilize those...(i.e. energy weapons). So, clans, especially, are predisposed to energy builds.

Warhawk said:

How much wub could a Wubhawk wub if a Wubhawk could wubwub?

[DjPush]

Wut? Is it worse than Dual GaussWarrior Online? Cuz there is another thread that begs to differ.

Edited by DjPush, 26 May 2015 - 07:15 PM.

[FupDup]

DjPush, on 26 May 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

Wut? Is it better than Dual GaussWarrior Online?

Lasers synergize with Goose Waffles very nicely.

[DaZur]

Lasers and or effectively energy-based weapons of which comprise the majority of the current and future weapons in this particular genre are the most prevalent weapon used on the battlefield?!

Ya don't say...

[Armorine]

DjPush, on 26 May 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

Wut? Is it worse than Dual GaussWarrior Online? Cuz there is another thread that begs to differ.

nothign wrong with gause rifles.i laugh every time some one complains.... Can't with for their face to be punched in by a devastator

[Templar Dane]

An across-the-board buff to projectile speeds would help to make lasers less attractive.

[madhermit]

lordtzar, on 27 May 2015 - 12:33 AM, said:

An across-the-board buff to projectile speeds would help to make lasers less attractive.

Also limited use ammo dump in CW. Maybe?

It never occured to me but running out of ammo could actually be a big problem in CW when you survive long enough in your mech.

Edited by madhermit, 27 May 2015 - 12:59 AM.

[Sarlic]

It's because of (almost) unlimited customisation.

You can buff all other weapons you like, but fact remains: some folks will always laser vomit.

[Weeny Machine]

As I said in another thread:
They should reduce the damage loss when you fire over your max. range (maybe get rid of it completely). This would get brawlers a better chance to get close without their pants already down and encourage more playstyles...like in the TT. A laser can't shoot there 40 hexes

[Joseph Mallan]

I don't understand?

You wanna play a shooter. Then you complain when people protect themselves from being shot at!
Do I have that right?

[Joseph Mallan]

Sarlic, on 27 May 2015 - 01:02 AM, said:

It's because of (almost) unlimited customisation.

You can buff all other weapons you like, but fact remains: some folks will always laser vomit.

To be fair. Look at the stock layouts. What is the most abundant weapon on Mechs?

Lasers.

I mean even a Catapult, a Missile carrier has 4 medium lasers and 2 large Missile Pods.

Atlas 1 Ballistic, One LRM, 1 SRM, 4 lasers. 8 lasers on just 2 Mechs. Laser vomit!

"Laser vomit" is meant to be the IT thing.

[Widowmaker1981]

Gyrok, on 26 May 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

Clans also tend to have lots of hardlocked DHS, which makes it less efficient to run something that does not utilize those...(i.e. energy weapons). So, clans, especially, are predisposed to energy builds.

Yep, this.

The only clan mechs that dont come with extra locked in DHS are small. Small mechs need to run energy anyway because they dont have the tonnage to do otherwise. Making a build on a Timber or Gargoyle or Warhawk or Executioner that is not energy based seems foolish, because then you are throwing away 5-10 tons of heatsinks you have but dont need. Add to that no PPC velocity quirks worth noting on those mechs, and what do you get? Laser Vomit, because wtf else are you gonna do?