28 replies to this topic

[Rhent]

As it stands now, the only real differentiator of PPC's are range and the deadspace. The slow weapon speed for PPC's have relegated them to a secondary weapon. You are better off running AC5's or Lasers at this point in time.

The main reason for the gimping of PPC's was the Gauss + PPC pairing, which the Dev's put in a decouple that frankly can be macro'd around or simply setting up your firing keys makes the decouple irrelevant.

Instead of gimping the PPC into oblivion or only allowing quirked mechs to use it in a manner beneficial to the team, change the roles of the PPC's.

PPC = Shorter range brawl weapon
Max Range = 540M
Min Range = 90M,
Dead Space = Remove the dead space and put back in PPC's scaling of damage down so at 45M the PPC would do 5 damage.
Velocity = 950M
Heat = 10
Damage = 10

ERPPC = Sniper weapon
Max Range = 810M
Min Range = 270M
Dead Space = Remove the dead space and put back in PPC's scaling of damage down so at 135M the PPC would do 5 damage
Velocity = 1550
Heat = 15
Damage = 10

CERPPC = Sniper weapon
Max Range = 810M
Min Range = 270M
Dead Space = Remove the dead space and put back in PPC's scaling of damage down so at 135M the PPC would do 7 damage, 5 at target and 1 spread to adjacent location
Velocity = 1550
Heat = 15
Damage = 15, 10 pin point and 2.5 to each adjacent location

Quirked mechs would have the velocity quirks either adjusted or the Dead Space adjusted down. As it stands now the ERPPC is being used as a brawl weapon and the PPC is again only used in heavily quirked mechs.

If the Devs have completely given up on the PPC and quirks are how they want to handle PPC's then good luck.

Edited to fix IS ERPPC's heat

Edited by Rhent, 04 May 2015 - 06:23 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

I agree with the general idea. PGI would never do anything like this, but if they did, I think it would be better to do it gradually. Maybe increase projectile velocity with 100 meters per month and then gradually increase minimum range to compensate. This would make it easier to find the sweet spot before the meta reverts back to poptarting and every mech turned into a ppc carrier.

I think people forget just how bad the PPC meta was. Even Ravens, Trebuchets and Catapult C1's were turned into PPC carriers for a while. I would rather not go back to that.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Remove the splash on CERPPC, its part of why hit reg on it sucks so bad..... 12PPD would be good. 12/15, 1270ms, then mechs like WHK and ADR get more velocity quirks to pt it up higher. As for min range? lolwut?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Rhent, on 03 May 2015 - 06:50 PM, said:

ERPPC = Sniper weapon
Dead Space = Remove the dead space and put back in PPC's scaling of damage down so at 135M the PPC would do 5 damage

The answer to improve PPCs and the game overall is not to increase the number of weapons with bad mechanics that is minimum range, since the ERPPCs currently don't have minimum range (even falloff).

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 03 May 2015 - 07:13 PM.

[Rhent]

WM Quicksilver, on 03 May 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

The answer to improve PPCs and the game overall is not to increase the number of weapons with bad mechanics that is minimum range, since the ERPPCs currently don't have minimum range (even falloff).

And the ERPPC, a weapon that was designed for extended range, is now being used as a brawl weapon almost exclusively due to its exceedingly low muzzle velocity. The ERPPC has the same muzzle velocity for the AC/10 but 270M more range. The only time PPC's or ERPPC's are not used to brawl are for those builds that are quirked out to the tilt to make a chassis a PPC or ERPPC carrier because the designers have nerfed the PPC into oblivion. So what do you get, the 4 PPC Stalker but now its the 3 PPC T-Bolt. The designers have just taken the 40 pin point and shifted it down to a 30 pin point.

[Aiden Skye]

as an avid CERPPC user. 15/15 or make them faster.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Rhent, on 03 May 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

And the ERPPC, a weapon that was designed for extended range, is now being used as a brawl weapon almost exclusively due to its exceedingly low muzzle velocity.

Where is it being used for brawling? Better yet, what good builds are even using it?

Im not disagreeing that the muzzle velocity is too low to be useful at their "effective" ranges, but they aren't used for brawling either because they are simply bad.

The best option is still to increase their velocity and recycle time, but PGI has this unwillingness to make anything recycle slower than 4-5 seconds outside of CSSRMs.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 03 May 2015 - 08:19 PM.

[Rhent]

WM Quicksilver, on 03 May 2015 - 08:18 PM, said:

Where is it being used for brawling? Better yet, what good builds are even using it?

Im not disagreeing that the muzzle velocity is too low to be useful at their "effective" ranges, but they aren't used for brawling either because they are simply bad.

The best option is still to increase their velocity and recycle time, but PGI has this unwillingness to make anything recycle slower than 4-5 seconds outside of CSSRMs.

You can't increase the ERPPC velocity and recycle time without giving it a weakness beyond heat. All you will end up doing is having people front load 3 quick snipes and then wait to cool down again. Putting in a larger deadspace will force mechs that boat ERPPC's to have back up ML or be vulnerable to light ****.

What I propose would allow a 4 ERPPC to function (ghost heat would limit it to two quick 20 pin point bursts) however that mech would be chum against a fast light mech. OR the stalker could run 2 ERPPC, 2 ERLL, 2 ML with the same heat sinks, less ability to do pin point **** and still be effectively at sniping but have capability to deal with close in mechs.

A lot of people want ERPPC/PPC's to be viable again and have higher velocities but the only way to do that would be to either greatly increase heat or bring in dead space. I'd rather go with the dead space for the ERPPC so it is still usable as a sniper but weak close up. For PPC boating chassis the designers decide on, quirks could be put in to reduce the dead space.

[orcrist86]

I have no problems sniping with a ppc over say an ac/10. The advantage is unlimited ammo... also lighter. The disadvantage is hot. erppcs are hotter and allow longer engagement ranges, but can still be sniped with, like just about any other weapon, you have to know the gun and its stats. The gauss beat the ppc for fast and damaging, but it is decidedly heavy, making the ppc a viable choice. I would like to see scaling on the ppc and erppc, but that doesn't change the standard usage.

[Pjwned]

I agree with the general idea, though I don't think such a giant minimum range on ER PPCs is a good idea, and reducing ER PPC heat to 10 (even with said minimum range) is questionable. I would also suggest that ER PPCs be a bit faster than C-ER PPCs so that being heavier, bulkier, and doing less damage would come with a small benefit, assuming the heat was not lowered.

LordKnightFandragon, on 03 May 2015 - 06:59 PM, said:

Remove the splash on CERPPC, its part of why hit reg on it sucks so bad..... 12PPD would be good. 12/15, 1270ms, then mechs like WHK and ADR get more velocity quirks to pt it up higher. As for min range? lolwut?

1. 10 pinpoint damage is balanced enough, having more pinpoint damage on 1 location (compared to ER PPC) for free is not.
2. Velocity quirks are dumb if only the mechs with quirks can fire them at max optimal range worth a damn.

[EvilCow]

I have a different idea:

1) Restore PPCs to full functionality (pre-nerf state, more speed, linear damage increase below 90mt, a bit less heat for ERs).
2) Give PPCs and Gauss negative quirks when mounted on the same mech:
- PPC: -20% speed, -20% cooldown, +20% heat.
- Gauss: -20% speed, -20% cooldown, +20% precharge time.
3) Remove or reduce PPCs-related quirks.

This way ONLY the problematic configs would be affected and everybody else would enjoy an usable weapon.

Edited by EvilCow, 04 May 2015 - 01:26 AM.

[Yosharian]

Messing with the minimum ranges runs contrary to table-top lore which PGI have shown they more or less don't want to do.

If I would do anything to PPCs it would be to reduce their tonnage. At the moment PPCs inevitably get compared to Large Pulse Lasers and always come off worse. There's almost no mech (apart from the heavily quirked ones) that would be better off with a PPC or ERPPC compared to a LPL. If we had 6 ton IS PPCs and 5 ton CERPPCs there'd at least be a reason to use them.

[kapusta11]

3xLL > 2xPPC
3xERLL > 2xERPPC
2xLPL > 2xPPC
CLPL > CERPPC

Go figure.

[EvilCow]

Yosharian, on 04 May 2015 - 01:35 AM, said:

Messing with the minimum ranges runs contrary to table-top lore which PGI have shown they more or less don't want to do.

TT does not state that the PPC does no damage under 90mt, the current implementation goes against TT rules. In TT the field inhibitor can be disabled and the weapon can be used at any range. The previous implementation of linear damage increase was actually closer to TT.

Facts here: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/PPC

"PPCs are equipped with a Field Inhibitor to prevent feedback which could damage the firing unit's electronic systems. This inhibitor degrades the performance of the weapon at close ranges of less than 90 meters. Particularly daring warriors have been known to disengage the inhibitor and risk damage to their own machine when a target is at close range."

You can see that performance is degraded under 90mt, linear increase fits perfectly the description. It is also possible to disable the field inhibitor entirely, do full damage and risk self-damage or malfunctions in electronics.

Edited by EvilCow, 04 May 2015 - 02:03 AM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

ERPPC and cERPPC - increase velocity enough that it can serve well at range, but increase cooldown to 6s to make it very hard to use in a sustained brawl.

PPC - leave as-is, but change the minimum range mechanic. Instead of 0 inside 90, let people fire them inside 90m with a damage feedback system. Have the target take full damage, while the user takes damage proportional to how close it is to the target. For example, at 45m both the firer would take 5 damage. The user take the damage to the location where the PPC is firing from.

[Brody319]

I'd say no minimum range on the regular PPC, reduce the max range, and increase recharge rate if we wanna make the regular ppc a brawling weapon. of course, they would need to be careful or quirks might create an abomination.

[Midax]

Yosharian, on 04 May 2015 - 01:35 AM, said:

Messing with the minimum ranges runs contrary to table-top lore which PGI have shown they more or less don't want to do.

PGI ignores lore quite a bit. We have ECM that effects LRMs, all mechs function like they have a C3 computer, Lasers spread damage, heat does not effect accuracy, critical hits work differently and equipment has HP, the mech lab turning IS mechs into super Omni mechs, and finally mech modules.

I'm sure I'm missing more.

Edited by Midax, 04 May 2015 - 05:01 AM.

[Quaamik]

No one would run a ERPPC or C-ERPPC with a 270 m minimum range.

You could make the velocity light speed, and they still would be unlikely to run it.

Talk about nerf.

[Rhent]

Quaamik, on 04 May 2015 - 05:38 AM, said:

No one would run a ERPPC or C-ERPPC with a 270 m minimum range.

You could make the velocity light speed, and they still would be unlikely to run it.

Talk about nerf.

You would be running the ERPPC for range and not brawls. At 135M the ERPPC would do 5 damage. Are you not familiar with with how the previous 90M dead space worked with scaling of damage and not complete removal of damage for PPC's?

[Bishop Steiner]

Yosharian, on 04 May 2015 - 01:35 AM, said:

Messing with the minimum ranges runs contrary to table-top lore which PGI have shown they more or less don't want to do.

If I would do anything to PPCs it would be to reduce their tonnage. At the moment PPCs inevitably get compared to Large Pulse Lasers and always come off worse. There's almost no mech (apart from the heavily quirked ones) that would be better off with a PPC or ERPPC compared to a LPL. If we had 6 ton IS PPCs and 5 ton CERPPCs there'd at least be a reason to use them.

because changing tonnage would somehow affect their lore stats and builds an less?