113 replies to this topic

[Darian DelFord]

Something needs to be looked at when it comes to the agility of the heavier mechs. The fact that they can toso twist on a dime severly negates the speed and agility bonuses of the lighter chassis.

They are heavy and cumbersome yet they turn twist like they are a 15 year old ballerina. Once they start twisting its almost impossible to get a shot at their back especially if they know what they are doing. This has been a problem for a long time now is is in part responsible for the lower light population. We rely on those back shots to take mechs down. Yet when they are twisting almost as quickly as you are it makes it nigh impossible.

Just food for thought, not like any devs are going to see this at 11 PM EST on their own damn forums.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Well, so is the lights ability to output fire like an assault....soo, theres that.

Assaults move like lights, lights deal damage like a heavy...

[Mcgral18]

Disregarding quirks; a 50 ton mech with a 250 engine, a 65 ton mech with a 325 engine, and a 75 ton mech with a 375 engine.

They all have a movement speed of 89.1, and they all have the same agility. That's the cause of the issue; twist speed and agility being directly related to the engine size.

[Clownwarlord]

Well Heavies and Assaults and Agility something about that line just doesn't go together. Mayb heavies need some but Assaults are Assaults at 80 to 100 tons there shouldn't be much agility there.

The issue I have found with these classes is there is no point in taking jumpjets unless you are 65 tons or less.

[Slow and Decrepit]

Unless the mech moved like that in lore. Take the Victor for example, it moves like a medium, but it's suppose to! That's how it stays alive. In lore it was a very fast and deadly striker with light armor. If people are going to start with this b.s. again, then we then need to make sure that ALL lights can't carry more than 3 medium lasers.

[LordKnightFandragon]

clownwarlord, on 05 May 2015 - 07:50 PM, said:

Well Heavies and Assaults and Agility something about that line just doesn't go together. Mayb heavies need some but Assaults are Assaults at 80 to 100 tons there shouldn't be much agility there.

The issue I have found with these classes is there is no point in taking jumpjets unless you are 65 tons or less.

Ill get on that boat when an assault is the one punking the lights and not the other way around...a DWF should fear the circle jerking light, the light should fear the Whale...

[bad arcade kitty]

and also lights should be almost the size of assaults with 1-2 meters height difference, not these lilliputians running here and there

[Greyboots]

I know this is a sore point for those who really like playing lights and I don't like being this negative but;

20-35 ton mechs aren't really supposed to be taking on 100+ tons with a good chance of coming out on top which is exactly what slowing torsos down would make happen. It's kind of sensible that it's nearly impossible when you think about it. Not to mention that left and right isn't the only issue, up and down is a serious issue on some of the assailts. There's torso centric assaults where I can tank a light for days but as long as they sit on my feet I need someone else to actually kill it.

Unfortunately it's already easy enough to drill out an assault's torso. Big targets, you just need DPS because they are easy to hit. Slowing them down will quite possibly make them less than useless to actually tank damage instead of just being platforms for massive firepower. Some are already way too easy to drill out the centre torso on and slowing twist rate will only make these mechs useless. I can't see making assaults more squishy just so a light can reliably solo kill them.

[Juodas Varnas]

Greyboots, on 05 May 2015 - 08:11 PM, said:

I know this is a sore point for those who really like playing lights and I don't like being this negative but;

20-35 ton mechs aren't really supposed to be taking on 100+ tons with a good chance of coming out on top which is exactly what slowing torsos down would make happen. It's kind of sensible that it's nearly impossible when you think about it. Not to mention that left and right isn't the only issue, up and down is a serious issue on some of the assailts. There's torso centric assaults where I can tank a light for days but as long as they sit on my feet I need someone else to actually kill it.

Unfortunately it's already easy enough to drill out an assault's torso. Big targets, you just need DPS because they are easy to hit. Slowing them down will quite possibly make them less than useless to actually tank damage instead of just being platforms for massive firepower. Some are already way too easy to drill out the centre torso on and slowing twist rate will only make these mechs useless. I can't see making assaults more squishy just so a light can reliably solo kill them.

Well, i'd be for REDUCING the mobility on Heavy mechs, instead of increasing it on Assaults.

[El Bandito]

Darian DelFord, on 05 May 2015 - 06:56 PM, said:

Something needs to be looked at when it comes to the agility of the heavier mechs. The fact that they can toso twist on a dime severly negates the speed and agility bonuses of the lighter chassis.

And 35 ton Huginn is not suppose to have 17 DPS (which is higher than many Heavies and even Assaults) either, while running at over 140kph.
PGI man...

Edited by El Bandito, 05 May 2015 - 09:08 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

I think the agility of heavies and assaults is one of the biggest problems in regards to gameplay balance right now. It wasn't always such a big deal, but people are getting better at playing the game and the quirkening has given mechs considerably more firepower than they used to have. This makes XL engines a safer choice now than they used to be. I think it's also partially a result of 12v12 battles, where durability is less of a factor. Any mech that gets focus fired by a deathball tends to evaporate in seconds, no matter what engine it has. The gameplay has moved away from small and slow engagements, to big, fast and deadly deathballs, where people race to the good positions and moving at 50-60 kph is a huge risk. I may be wrong about the impact of 12v12 in regards to XL engines, but that's my guess anyway.

Whatever the explanation is, I do think this game would be a lot more fun if heavy mechs were considerably less agile than mediums, and assault mechs considerably less agile than heavy mechs.

In regards to the argument that "lights aren't supposed to be on equal terms with heavies"... well, if that's your policy, then you should give people a reason to play lights. Beyond the thrill of standing on squares in Conquest mode, I mean. (Standing on squares isn't as profitable as killing mechs either, but that's a fair sacrifice for the thrill of standing still.) If we had R&R, or quicker respawns for light mechs, or separate objectives for light mechs, or any other kind of balancing factor, then I would understand the argument above. But right now, it reminds me of playing Batman and Robin in kindergarten, and insisting that my friend had to play the weaker superhero, so I could be the important one.

[Slow and Decrepit]

The only good light is a dead light!

[Chuck Jager]

The problem with nerfing assaults is not that they are too quick in close quarters combat it is the fact that their main problem is the rest of their team leaving them. We all have heard the L2P counter facts to this issue, but we all like to run after the easy mode damage and is it really my job to pilot your mech (sarcasm). If you hit the overall speed of assaults so lights have a more speed vs firepower match it will only make taking an assault more of an issue.

I have seen this from both the light and assaults perspective. Is this the old chicken and egg problem wit the change of nascar and the TTK.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 05 May 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

Disregarding quirks; a 50 ton mech with a 250 engine, a 65 ton mech with a 325 engine, and a 75 ton mech with a 375 engine.

They all have a movement speed of 89.1, and they all have the same agility. That's the cause of the issue; twist speed and agility being directly related to the engine size.

A 375 XL weighs more than a Commando, a 375 STD weighs as much as a Black Jack.




A 50 Ton mech with a 250 XL spent 25% of it's own weight on engine.

A 75 Ton mech with a 375 XL spent 35% of it's actual weight on engine.

The 375 XL weighs 2x as much as the 250 XL.


Personally, I don't see an issue here as the returns on speed for weight invested diminish.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 05 May 2015 - 09:00 PM.

[One Medic Army]

I just had an idea (that will never be implemented because lore/change make hulk angry/the stars didn't align).

What if instead of a strict linear relationship between speed/twist/arm motion/turn speed and engine size:

Instead they all had a base value, which engine size increased off of in a linear fashion.

So for instance, instead of every 5 rating giving a Hunchback a speed boost of approx 1.64 kph, each 5 rating gave it say 1.0kph, but it had a default speed of 30kph that engine added to. You could set the base speed by tonnage, class, chassis, or even variant. The same could apply to other mobility numbers (twist, turn, etc...)

The goal here would be to reduce the effect of engine on chassis maneuverability, without disconnecting it entirely.

As a sidenote, this might be able to make slow clan lights viable by boosting their speed a bit.

Edited by One Medic Army, 05 May 2015 - 09:04 PM.

[Xetelian]

I've had mechs stick to my back end but I can see how much people want to slow everything down.

[Darian DelFord]

Mcgral18, on 05 May 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

Disregarding quirks; a 50 ton mech with a 250 engine, a 65 ton mech with a 325 engine, and a 75 ton mech with a 375 engine.

They all have a movement speed of 89.1, and they all have the same agility. That's the cause of the issue; twist speed and agility being directly related to the engine size.

This is the major cause yes.

beleneagle, on 05 May 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

Unless the mech moved like that in lore. Take the Victor for example, it moves like a medium, but it's suppose to! That's how it stays alive. In lore it was a very fast and deadly striker with light armor. If people are going to start with this b.s. again, then we then need to make sure that ALL lights can't carry more than 3 medium lasers.

Its not BS. Yes the Victor did have a higher than average in lore. But you also have to look at the gaming side of MW. Some concessions have to be made. Currently this is nothing more than an Arena Death Match FPS. Until other roles are developed (which this game seriously needs) damage is the only style there is. Currently Lights are molten slag from 1 alpha from any heavy and assault, thats all it takes is 1 alpha to basically remove the light fromt he game. A light should be scared to be in the front of the assault. An assault should be scared when a light gets in behind him. However currently most are not especially if they know what they are doing. Their twist speeds are just ludicrous.

LordKnightFandragon, on 05 May 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

Ill get on that boat when an assault is the one punking the lights and not the other way around...a DWF should fear the circle jerking light, the light should fear the Whale...

If the light is circle jerking an assault both pilots are just bad.

El Bandito, on 05 May 2015 - 08:26 PM, said:

And 35 ton Huginn is not suppose to have 17 DPS (which is higher than many Heavies and even Assaults) either, while running at over 140kph.
PGI man...

Yeah, my Oxide is a Sad Panda.

Chuck YeaGurr, on 05 May 2015 - 08:52 PM, said:

The problem with nerfing assaults is not that they are too quick in close quarters combat it is the fact that their main problem is the rest of their team leaving them. We all have heard the L2P counter facts to this issue, but we all like to run after the easy mode damage and is it really my job to pilot your mech (sarcasm). If you hit the overall speed of assaults so lights have a more speed vs firepower match it will only make taking an assault more of an issue.

I have seen this from both the light and assaults perspective. Is this the old chicken and egg problem wit the change of nascar and the TTK.

Thats more of a poor team than anything else. Rarely does that happen in organized play.

Is this a Giant Stompy Robot game yes, however lights have been directly and indirectly nered into the ground for the last year, specifically with Hit Reg fixes. (Not that I am calling that a nerf). the high PPFLD alphas out there melt lights and they should, however when those platforms can twist just as quickly as a light can then the ability of the light to do its job in the game as it stands now is even more impossible. Its gotten to the point that the few times i do play a heavy or an assault a light in behind me does not scare me. Just back up and twist and you have almost 270 degree's of angle on him with a few exceptions.

[Joseph Mallan]

Darian DelFord, on 05 May 2015 - 06:56 PM, said:

Something needs to be looked at when it comes to the agility of the heavier mechs. The fact that they can toso twist on a dime severly negates the speed and agility bonuses of the lighter chassis.

They are heavy and cumbersome yet they turn twist like they are a 15 year old ballerina. Once they start twisting its almost impossible to get a shot at their back especially if they know what they are doing. This has been a problem for a long time now is is in part responsible for the lower light population. We rely on those back shots to take mechs down. Yet when they are twisting almost as quickly as you are it makes it nigh impossible.

Just food for thought, not like any devs are going to see this at 11 PM EST on their own damn forums.

I am heavy and cumbersome yet am also agile for my size. Torso twisting is contingent on the engine in the Mech and everyone and their uncle upgrades the engine. so faster land speed more agility.

It follows.

These are machines, not fat sloven slobs!

[Duke Nedo]

It wouldn't hurt if the agility benefit from larger engine was scaled down just a little imo. Preferably it would be a sigmoidal curve to diminish returns for extremely large or small engines.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 06 May 2015 - 03:50 AM.

[Ursh]

Problem with nerfing torso twist on assaults is that they'll just get their CT drilled out from range even easier than they currently do.