54 replies to this topic

[Roadkill]

Yarr, matey, that be the dream.

[martian]

Soy, on 06 May 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

Can someone explain to me the actual ******* logic behind putting CASE on a mech that uses only one ******* ton of ammo? With a STD engine??? I don't understand.

1) Without CASE, that one ton of ammo would be enough to completely destroy your 'Mech. You use CASE to protect your 'Mech in case of internal ammo explosion, as it contains the explosion in that one section of 'Mech.
Is here something you do not understand?
2) If you check the record sheet, you will find out that TRG-1N is not equipped with standard engine.

Soy, on 06 May 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

Now it's a given, I'm analyzing the above thing thru an MWO-centric perspective, which isn't really fair to BT/MW in general as a whole, but... seriously, can someone justify that example or some of the other head scratchers?

It seems to me that there's lots of examples of mechs and armor that has stuff like that in BT/MW. So while this isn't exactly a MWO thing per se, you can sort of see examples of it in game, particularly stock builds etc.

Seems odd that some random mongo nerds on the internet in in 2015 [and surely earlier] can see obvious inefficient or dumb **** on some of these mechs n stuff... so whats up with a thousand years later, these super genius engineers and scientists make questionable decisions from the start? That Targe is a great example. I know that logistics and financial and technological things come into play yada yada yada, but still. Whats the point of that ******* CASE. What's the point of any CASE, ever. **** it. Ride the snake.

The difference is that BattleTech is often more than just a series of deathmatches where you start the game always in a fresh 'Mech (as in PUG queue) or freshly respawned 'Mech (as in CW). In BattleTech, you do not have unlimited supply of BattleMechs. There're periods when 'Mechs are rare and there're periods when 'Mechs are "extremely" rare.

So CASE makes sense on the majority of standard- or light-engined 'Mechs, as it usually keeps them in combat, or lets them withdraw from combat.
And on XL-engined 'Mechs it often keeps them salvageable, so you can repair them and field them in the next battle.

Soy, on 06 May 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

ps - no really, think about it... 24 shots... if you can't get those off before the ammo goes, while you get ***** on in a MASC-capable mech that hauls ass, something is wrong... ****** CASE, I will never understand. NEVER!

Do you know that you must be cautious with MASC? So that "hauling ass" is not so hot.
Do you know that MWO 'Mechs have twice the armor than they have in BattleTech? There are many weapons in BattleTech that can crit your ammo.

[Pezzer]

Soy, on 06 May 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

That's a great point, mmm... nice.

I like to think that during the succession wars a lot of warfare was conducted almost with 'pirate' rules wherein the goal is not to kill but to capture without doing damage to the vessel, whatever it may be. Cuz that **** be prized, yo.

Yeah, that's pretty much it.


P.S. in case you didn't quite get it, that MRM-10 gets 24 reloads per ton, so we can consider it a missile version of the AC/10, firing 1 10-damage missile per cooldown, or we can consider it a 10-missile salvo doing 1 dmg per missile, with 240 ammo per ton.
Without CASE, the ammo can be hit, doing up to the potential damage of that ammo to your Mech. 240 damage in this case (pun). If that goes off inside you mech, it will completely destroy all of your internal structure, 1 hit KO.

Edited by Pezzer, 06 May 2015 - 10:38 AM.

[Apnu]

(self delete, pointless, others answered the question better than I)

Edited by Apnu, 06 May 2015 - 10:35 AM.

[Soy]

@martian...

I guess what I don't understand is what's appealing about a game where any diceroll can mean your entire **** explodes. xD

Btw it's not equipped with an XL so it can still lose a Torso, that's what I was goin at. You're right tho it's not STD, sorry.

I just don't see the point of mechs like that, it seems like garbage. The description implies its garbage. That mech, if in MWO, would be hot garbage.

Edited by Soy, 06 May 2015 - 10:35 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Soy, on 06 May 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

@martian...

I guess what I don't understand is what's appealing about a game where any diceroll can mean your entire **** explodes. xD

[Soy]

If anyone wants to clarify this, please do.

Targe has a light fusion, it can lose a torso.

Ammo explosion can spread into the adjacent location, correct..? Can it spread beyond that?

Cuz lets say it's one ton of MRM ammo right. It's in the arm. Arm goes. Spread to side torso. Takes side torso. Light fusion engine, so mech still standing.

Can it continue to spread?

Guys who wanna run numbers, if it is possible to take CT or head out at that point, whats the odds of that?

And finally, who the **** is dying without firing a shot in a mech going 180 with a wep that can't be really be zoned if that fast??!?!?!?!? Who are these 'warriors'.......... ie, run the numbers with only 10 salvos left, etc.

Run that thru TT and MWO.

Furthermore, consider the mech's weapons array is "exceedingly limited"... am I the only one who thinks it could benefit intrinsically from dumping the CASE conceptually for an extra SL at least?

Edited by Soy, 06 May 2015 - 10:46 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Soy, on 06 May 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

If anyone wants to clarify this, please do.

Mech has a light fusion, it can lose a torso.

Ammo explosion can spread into the adjacent location, correct..? Can it spread beyond that?

afaik yes.

[Mcgral18]

Soy, on 06 May 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

If anyone wants to clarify this, please do.

Targe has a light fusion, it can lose a torso.

Ammo explosion can spread into the adjacent location, correct..? Can it spread beyond that?

Cuz lets say it's one ton of MRM ammo right. It's in the arm. Arm goes. Spread to side torso. Takes side torso. Light fusion engine, so mech still standing.

Can it continue to spread?

It spreads without any reduction; all the ammo that's left will destroy the ST. Whatever damage is left, without the CASE, would go right into the CT at 100% damage.

[Soy]

So the numbers on that... you mean to tell me on a 40 ton mech, one ton of MRM ammo could eat thru the arm, the side torso, and still have enough rolling dmg to poop the center torso? Really? Is that at full ammo or what?

Or are you saying it's rolling and it could just crit and thus the poopage..?

Edited by Soy, 06 May 2015 - 10:51 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Soy, on 06 May 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

So the numbers on that... you mean to tell me on a 40 ton mech, one ton of MRM ammo could eat thru the arm, the side torso, and still have enough rolling dmg to poop the center torso? Really? Is that at full ammo or what?

It only has 67 internal structure point (half MWO), so it could completely annihilate every point on that mech (in your scenario).

It only mounts 99 armour on top of that, so 240 points of damage is greater than all of its protection combined.

[Soy]

So theoretically if it was down to like, maybe less than 40% of it's ammo, and nothing gets crit, the ammo could go and the mechs most likely not gonna go up in smoke. Ok.

Man, TT is ******** as ****.

[Mcgral18]

Soy, on 06 May 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

So theoretically if it was down to like, maybe less than 40% of it's ammo, and nothing gets crit, the ammo could go and the mechs most likely not gonna go up in smoke. Ok.

Man, TT is ******** as ****.

That's why it has CASE.

It protects you from RNG Jesus.

[Soy]

**** TT, and **** CASE.

Ride the snake!

[Joseph Mallan]

Soy, on 06 May 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

**** TT, and **** CASE.

Ride the snake!

I been trying to get the wife to try one of these... Really nice sturdy Dining room table.

[martian]

Soy, on 06 May 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

@martian...

I guess what I don't understand is what's appealing about a game where any diceroll can mean your entire **** explodes. xD

1) I guess that it makes BattleTech more interesting than some other games where you put your hero on the table and your opponents can go home because they have nothing that could harm your hero.
In BattleTech, you have always some chance to win. Perhaps slight one, sure, but usually there is at least something what you can try.
2) One part of tactics in BattleTech is to minimize damage to your 'Mechs - either thanks movement (using cover or partial cover, for example), tactically (moving to spots where enemy weapons will be less effective), resources management (you can always dump your ammunition when the armor breach is imminent) or through technology ("crit padding, using CASE or CASE II).

Soy, on 06 May 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

Btw it's not equipped with an XL so it can still lose a Torso, that's what I was goin at. You're right tho it's not STD, sorry.

It can lose its side torso, but it can still move and fight. Without CASE, you would be left with a pile of scrap metal. What's better?

Soy, on 06 May 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

I just don't see the point of mechs like that, it seems like garbage. The description implies its garbage. That mech, if in MWO, would be hot garbage.

1) I agree that TRG-1N Targe is not an especially great 'Mech. But trust me, I have seen many worse 'Mechs.
2) Sarna.net "is not" an official source. It's written by random passerbies. Therefore, it's filled with personal feelings, inaccuracies and unsubstantialed claims. You should read actual BattleTech publications instead.
3) In MWO, you wouldn't care about its weapons, only about its hardpoints.

Soy, on 06 May 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

Ammo explosion can spread into the adjacent location, correct..? Can it spread beyond that?

Cuz lets say it's one ton of MRM ammo right. It's in the arm. Arm goes. Spread to side torso. Takes side torso. Light fusion engine, so mech still standing.

Can it continue to spread?

Yes, it can spread. Check any official record sheet. Can you see that small diagram of a 'Mech with arrows pointing from one section to the next one. That's how damage spreads.

It spreads until it "dissipates" by destroying the 'Mech structure or until it reaches 'Mech's center torso. The only place, that is exception from this rule, is 'Mechs head.

Edited by martian, 06 May 2015 - 11:16 AM.

[Intrepid]

Roadkill, on 06 May 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

They'd have to rework RnR from what it was, but yeah it could be.

Under the old RnR, you didn't get any salvage from friendly Mechs. It paid to be as precise as possible while destroying enemy Mechs because that could increase your RnR significantly, but no salvage was gained from destroyed friendlies. Presumably because the destroyed friendly was restored and given back to the pilot.

But if (for example) they made it so that the cost of restoring the destroyed friendlies was deducted from the salvage awarded to that pilot, then CASE would make more sense. It'd be cheaper to restore your Mech that way.

Just to clarify but CASE did save your mech the Repair costs of an ammo explosion. That is a CASE'd ammo explosion was significantly cheaper to repair even on an XL engine.

[Lykaon]

If you want to discuss table top mechs with critical design flaws I could go on for pages so here is one of my favorites.

PLG-3Z Pillager from TRO 3058

A 100 ton Battlemech with a 300XL engine and more heatsinks than it can possibly generate heat for and more Gauss ammo than will likely be fired in two games.

Yet,if you use a standard engine reduce the gauss ammo to a more common value (2 tons per gun) reduce the heatsinks to just enough to dissipate 100% of max heat gen a turn and add endo steel you have a mech that not only has superior survivability ( No XL on an Assault mech) but cost a lot less (No XL engine cost at all).

Come to think of it the very next page of TRO 3058 has the Thunderhawk,another 100 ton mech with a 300XL engine (in this case a legit choice for a fire support platform) but only has 10 single heatsinks ??? if you already spent the C-bills on the XL engine why not use the Dubs? As it stands the TDK-7X Thunderhawk overheats by 7 after an alpha strike when it could with double heatsinks have a surplus of 3 heat and what would it cost? off the top of my head 40k c-bills more.

[DaZur]

Roadkill, on 06 May 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

You'll have to add rum to find out!

(Angostura 1824 or El Dorado 21 will do nicely.)

Forum rumors proven to be true... Roadkill is "easy"...

[Burktross]

LordBraxton, on 06 May 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

Dont blame Battletech for MWO's broken critical system.

24 shots = 24 turns of battletech = you will never use all of that ammo

You can also roll lucky criticals, even through-armor-criticals in Battletech, and set off an ammo explosion in any component.

In CBT CASE is only useless in a IS XL torso

in MWO... CASE is nvr useful...

I just bought PnP Battletech, but in the rulebook I couldn't find through armor crits (except for the CT). What's the rule for it? Total Warfare?