75 replies to this topic

[EDMW CSN]

Melissia, on 29 November 2011 - 07:40 PM, said:

Wow, that's an even dumber than I thought it was.

So you suggest, basically, to remove all customziation from the game?

No. And also no. Honestly, there's better ways to balance this than the idea here.

No no you are getting the wrong idea.
TT rules allowed pilots of omni-mechs to switch to whatever they please except the following below.
A regular Battlemech chassis can do all that below and more.


Omni Chassis restrictions
1) Not allowed to change their engines rating
2) Not allowed to change their armor type or armor tonnage
3) Not allowed to change their fix amount of base heatsinks or change heatsink types.
4) Not allowed to change or relocate internal structure. Endo-steel crits should be strictly fixed.
5) Not allowed to remove or relocate any additional fixed equipment on Omnis. Some Omnis have fixed MASC or even ECM. Those CANNOT be removed.

So customization is there, in fact Omni makes it easier as long you got the required weapon pods, DHS and electronics to make the change. Just that the scope of customization is a lot less for an Omni compared to a Battlemech.

An IS awesome can go 3/5 to 4/6 but a Turkina will be stuck at 3/5/3.
You can make an Altas go 3/5 to 4/6 but a Daishi would be stuck at 3/5.

Anything else as long, weapon related, DHS and electronics are all fair game for the Omni.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 01 December 2011 - 12:24 AM.

[Karyudo ds]

Melissia, on 29 November 2011 - 07:40 PM, said:

Wow, that's an even dumber than I thought it was.

So you suggest, basically, to remove all customziation from the game?

No. And also no. Honestly, there's better ways to balance this than the idea here.

Yeah like reading the rest of his post lol.

Not being able to alter armor or speed but being able to reconfigure weapon/equipment loadouts on the fly with little support cost is customization. Even though technically the boardgame rules weren't really about tweaking up mech designs what with hundreds of TRO designs fluffed as being the common mechs but it did support it and that's basically how it worked.

If I want more armor on my Thor then I will go get a Madcat. This seems fitting for the clans to me, no patchwork armor modding etc. That came about purely in the video games I think and by this consept if you want that...the Innersphere would let to tweak whatever, would just cost time and cbills.

Again this sounds like a great concept for letting some reconfiguring in but NOT turning all mechs into Omni mechs. I think Mech Assault is saddly the only Battletech related game in the last 15 years to realize that the Innersphere mechs aren't normally made of legos...then it extended that thinking to the clan mechs but oh well.

[Melissia]

Karyudo-ds, on 29 November 2011 - 10:10 PM, said:

Not being able to alter armor or speed but being able to reconfigure weapon/equipment loadouts on the fly with little support cost is customization.

I dunno if I made it clear enough with my posts, but to me, it's less customization, therefor it is not quite as good.

[Xhaleon]

Melissia, on 30 November 2011 - 03:39 AM, said:

I dunno if I made it clear enough with my posts, but to me, it's less customization, therefor it is not quite as good.

It is more good to have a reason to have different mechs in the first place. You are already familiar with stripping out whole pieces of a mech to alter it; you know how generic they can be aside from how much weight you have to put things in.

But perhaps that isn't important to you. What is apparently important to you is taking the most slim and streamlined mech and stuffing it full of what you like, isn't that right?

[Melissia]

No, what's important, to me, is to make the 'mech I have into MY 'mech. I'm a roleplayer at heart, I like to make my characters my own, and my 'mech is, essentially, my character in this game. So I might build my Raven in to a stealthy LRM missile boat so I can go around bombarding enemies from behind and distracting them from my teammates, and running away after each salvo. Or I might take a hunchback and replace its AC/20 with an ER ppc to make up for its lack of range, and add some armor, to allow it to become a 'mech useful in non-urban battles.

I'm fine with having such customization be expensive, but I do want it to actually be there. If the idea was "omnimechs are much cheaper to swap out weapons, but more expensive to swap otu other things", I'd have been fine with it. But saying you simply CANNOT do it, at all, ever... no, just no.

Edited by Melissia, 30 November 2011 - 04:07 AM.

[Paladin1]

Melissia, on 30 November 2011 - 04:04 AM, said:

I'm fine with having such customization be expensive, but I do want it to actually be there. If the idea was "omnimechs are much cheaper to swap out weapons, but more expensive to swap otu other things", I'd have been fine with it. But saying you simply CANNOT do it, at all, ever... no, just no.

Why not? You say you're a role player at heart, then you'll know about the Sloan Lockover 220 targeting system in the Clint and how it's supposed to be one of the most accurate targeting systems ever developed, even by Clan standards, but it's also impossible to remove it from one design and place it into another design due to how the system is integrated into every facet of the Clint's design specs.

By your way of thinking, swapping out a Sloan 220 shouldn't be a big deal even though there's no basis in-universe for this ease other than your desire to want it to be possible. The same goes for the Clan Omnimechs. They have the ability to have their weapon loads swapped out on the fly, but don't have the ability to have their "core" systems modified beyond that due to design specifications and limitations in-universe.

The system that the OP has proposed, which is based on canon rules, is balanced and reflects the Clan's foreign approach to technology.

[Xhaleon]

Paladin1, on 30 November 2011 - 05:54 AM, said:

You say you're a role player at heart

She's not. She's the kind of person who inserts an optimized version of herself into the game and calls it roleplaying.

Same thing with everyone calling themselves nerds now.

[Paladin1]

Xhaleon, on 30 November 2011 - 06:09 AM, said:

She's not. She's the kind of person who inserts an optimized version of herself into the game and calls it roleplaying.

Same thing with everyone calling themselves nerds now.

I know that, that's the reason I pointed it out. She's claiming to be a role player when she's actually a min-maxer. Not a big deal to most but to those of us who are role players and who take the time to actually think about why things are the way they are in-universe, it's annoying.

[Fiachdubh]

The major problem in the Clan invasion was that the mechs were unbalanced in favor of the Clans. For this reason they should not be balanced within the game either. The IS countered the invasion by adapting their tactics and strategies to counter the Clans technological superiority (fighting dirty). That is the way it should be in game.
The Clans have less units because of bidding and/or the IS lied about what it would use. Clan Zell rules versus IS no rules etc. This will be easier if the Clans are AI controled but when they are opened up to players try to enforce\encourage them to play be Clan rules. A Clanner who consistantly breaks Zell rules cannot enter enter trials for bloodname\rank and wouldn't be trusted with the better mechs for example.

[Hunter McGee]

Whatever the case may be, whatever the Customization rules will be, whatever the faction and role playing restrictions will be,... I still firmly believe that we, all of us, will manage to mold ourselves to fit the universe we are being offered. We will manage to become what we are offered. MWO is ours after all. Without us it will fail. And at this point in time I cannot feasibly see this undertaking failing.

We quibble, and we quote, and we read into the Devs posts what we want to see, what we desire to play. We all have slightly different playing styles, in some cases drastically different styles. Yet we all still come together to support the unknown. Kind of like a family. I can beat up my brother, but nobody else better touch him. Actually, I think this post is relevant in a number of threads. I'm not even going to ask "Can't we all just get along?" Because I know deep down, we're all brothers, sisters etc. We beat each other up, but outside people best leave us alone!

MWO will be what it will be, and there are a ton of great ideas out here, but can you imagine if the Devs tried to implement even a tenth of them, they would be micro-managing this game for the next 10 years. And honestly, some of the ideas that we post are technologically impossible with mankind's current technology, maybe not the posts here, but some of those I have read are.

Well, that's my rant for the day. Now you may continue, go back to your corners, come out fighting.

<<DING --- DING>>

[EDMW CSN]

To put it bluntly, if you choose to min max, you can still do it with IS mechs or Clan mechs. Just that IS mechs aren't the most efficient chassis around to min max with.
For example, by default you can't change the IS reactors internal DHS to Clan models.


But if you are lucky to find a 300 rated Clan XL engine, you can try fitting that to an Atlas chassis. Yeah that could work. And that will allow your ride use all those spare Clan DHS that you got. However thanks to the factory and the dudes working in it, you might to fork out some pocket change for it and some time for them to do the job.

So yes, the ability to min-max the build is still there, but you better take care of that baby as you might be the next primary target the enemy commander will be calling out first.

=======================================

Not to sound like a broken record but by following canon rules for Clan Omni-mech restriction as well, it makes Clan Mechs distinct from each other. You won't have the Summoner being transformed to a Nova Cat or vice versa.

Summoner 5/8/5 9.5 tons of FF armor. Pod space 22.5 tons. 35 crits free.
Nova Cat 4/6 13.5 tons of armor. Pod space 38 tons (!!) 40 crits free.

So for the same 70 ton class, you got a fast mobile fella who is lacking in the frontal assault department but on the other hand, you got a 70 ton slow poke (many clan assaults go 4/6) which is build to frigging last the battle field.

If you choose to min-max with Clan mechs, you have to work within the set conditions that are unique to each mech.

That should avoid uber pwn mobiles from both the IS & Clans. I hope.


For the IS, it would be cost and downtime.
For the Clanner, it would be what their mech does best.

You won't mod a Gargoyle with inbuilt 16 DHS to be carrying multiple heavy ACs would you ?

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 30 November 2011 - 07:49 AM.

[Jack Gallows]

I like the idea. Most Clan mechs still have a good bit of weight leverage to change to the roles they may want, but they aren't fully customizable unlike a IS mech (or a second line Clan mech.)

It makes mechs really stand out, and it can also make being an IS player really interesting. Can you keep that prize Clan mech operational over time? Maybe it got rocked last match, and you have to have it sit out while you collect salvage to put it back together. Clans get strong mechs capable of changing load outs quickly, while IS can drastically alter the capability of their full mechs, meaning they change the battlefield a bit more strongly then a Clanner can and snag an advantage.

I like the idea that, even though I can seriously mod a mech of mine, it's going to take time. It makes buying more then one mech advantageous, and brings a kind of meta game to what you have available in your stable.

Edited by Jack Gallows, 30 November 2011 - 12:04 PM.

[Gaius Cavadus]

I'm always amused that there are people naive enough to think that the clans and clan players can be balanced by enforcing roleplay standards on battlefield tactics.

I assume these people have never played a multiplayer game in their entire life.

Folks, fi you personally think clan mechs can be balanced by enforcing zellbrigen on clan players it's best you leave now before you learn what F2P multiplayer is actually like.

Edited by Cavadus, 30 November 2011 - 12:21 PM.

[Frantic Pryde]

I like where the OP is going with this. I really don't see the problem. It sticks to the canon perfectly and offers some much needed balance. While I don't think it's the end all to the inclusion of player based clans it's certainly a veryimportant component.

[Darkmoose]

The Clans can use IS Weapons, they just don't except in 2nd line units, Inner Sphere does have techs that have the ability to mount them on IS Mechs Dragoons NAIS, and Kell Hounds. Even taking just cannon IS Units it looks like anything can and is done to them in terms of modification. The game is balanced already, all you have to do is allow more inner sphere mechs in a fight than clan mechs, in Board Game terms that is done with BV, I assume that same value system can be used for this.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

It's simple - you just up the numbers of IS mechs v Clan until it evens out. Alternatively until the IS gets it's act together then the objectives for the IS side will be do what you can and see how many mechs you can get off map/off planet while inflicting some damage.In this case the Are's convention definately goes by the board.

[Alex Wolfe]

I find OP's idea excellent. It allows the mechs to keep more "character", rather than being simply frames for weapons (like in MW3), and still allows for a great deal of customization.

If there is a sufficient number of mechs in the game, if someone doesn't like a feature, for example the canonically un-removable jump jets of Turkina... he/she can just try another chassis until it "clicks". It's way more personalized than just taking any hunk of metal in the chosen weight range and min-maxing it until it owns, regardless of its type. It also shows the totally different design philosophy behind Omnimechs, rather than them just being "those better ones" like they were portrayed in games until now.

This could work.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 30 November 2011 - 01:57 PM.

[Willis Kabrinski]

To be honest, I've always preferred the route of allowing the normal variants and nothing more. Think of the amount of time it will take to go through every weapon combination on however many mechs to get balancing done correctly.

Through the use of variants and only allowing a specific number, it will allow balancing to be done far more effectively, with the obvious loss of customization.

I'd rather be able to make my mech look unique, than go up against god knows how many players who decide to rock as many flamers as they can fit on their mech.

[Haeso]

Battle value balances weapons and Chassis automatically.

[Willis Kabrinski]

Are we even sure that BV will be prevalent in this game? Remember, this is not TT. As much as we'd all like it to be.