90 replies to this topic

[Bombast]

MeiSooHaityu, on 03 July 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

To add in more confusion (and conversation ), Clans used Inner Sphere Mechs as well. Most Clan Mechs we recognize (MadCat, Vulture, etc..) are Omni Mechs, but I do remember the clans running with certain variants of Inner Sphere Mechs that were labeled "II-C". I remember Mechs that were labeled Hunchback II-C, Rifleman II-C, and Jenner II-C. These were vastly improved Inner Sphere designs that were normally given to the "Less Worthy" Clan pilots.

My Question though is, are these carry over designs from the Star League (When they first left and created the Clans, or were these captured and re-conditioned Mechs durring the invasion?

Both.

[Bodha]

MeiSooHaityu, on 03 July 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

To add in more confusion (and conversation ), Clans used Inner Sphere Mechs as well. Most Clan Mechs we recognize (MadCat, Vulture, etc..) are Omni Mechs, but I do remember the clans running with certain variants of Inner Sphere Mechs that were labeled "II-C". I remember Mechs that were labeled Hunchback II-C, Rifleman II-C, and Jenner II-C. These were vastly improved Inner Sphere designs that were normally given to the "Less Worthy" Clan pilots.

My Question though is, are these carry over designs from the Star League (When they first left and created the Clans, or were these captured and re-conditioned Mechs durring the invasion?

Quick answer.. The Clans transitioned from IS mech technology of the SLDF days to Omnimechs over a lengthy period of time. Along the way they built some mech designs that were similar to the old IS stuff but built with the new things they had come up with. Usually these mechs weigh the same as the older versions, but incorporate lighter materials to fit more stuff into the package. A few of them though I think actually weigh more as well, but I could be wrong on that.

The Omnimechs however go a step beyond that and have the ability to swap weapons easily and quickly with a minimum of fuss. The Clans kept the II-C mechs around though because they are still decent, and are far cheaper to maanufacture. Usually in the lore the II-C stuff is used by second line troops who garrison quiet worlds.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I see. Thanks for the info.

[Gamgee]

Newbie absorbing lore... delicious, moist, and fluffy lore. Muahahaha.

@Adridos
Seriously thought, that was one of the things I seen people talking about a lot and didn't know, so very useful post.

Edited by Gamgee, 03 July 2012 - 07:25 AM.

[Urbancat]

Thank you for the posts, is a very informative thread.
The first novels i did read where clan novels, and mostly were my only exposure to the game world apart the computer games.

When i discovered all the Inner Sphere stuff i started to buy the Inner sphere novels as well plus some game manual for TT so i am discovering a lot of stuff , but this thread summarize everything very well.

Thank you all for the infos.

[Reoh]

Bombast, on 03 July 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:

Clan and Inner Sphere lasers produce the same ammount of heat. Ultracannon's produce less heat clan side.

The only advantage, tech wise, of Inner Sphere design is the weird weapons they get (MRMs, etc), which is largly destroyed when the clan's copy those same weapons some time later.

Oh, and the standard Medium Laser, which is largely considered the best weapon ever, balance wise.

EDIT: Perhaps you are looking at the Clan ER Pulse Laser?

I'm looking at 3050 era tech, what we'll be using come launch.

[grimzod]

VooDooPC, on 02 July 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

I think I need a short Mechwarrior history lesson. I've played just about every Mechwarrior game (Everything but MechAssault 2, I even played Mechwarrior 3050 for the SNES) but I never read any novels or did any table top games.

Why is Clan technology so advanced and how would it really effect the game compared to the age difference in the current 'mechs?

Mechwarrior Online takes place just before the Clan invasion, so currently everything is Inner Sphere, which I understand. "Operation Exodus" was in 2784, the Clans were formed and the invasion was 300 years later, in 3050. I was looking at some of the 'mechs that will be in the game and the dates they were developed and I was surprised just how old some of this stuff is.

Commando - Introduced in 2463. This was over 300 years before the Exodus and add another 300 years before the invasion, this 'mech will be around 600 years old when we use it in Mechwarrior Online!

Catapult - 2561 ~500 years old ~225 years before Exodus

Hunchback - 2572 ~475 years old ~215 years before Exodus

Atlas - 2755 ~300 years old ~10 years before Exodus

Centurion - 2801 ~250 years old

Nova (Clan) - 2870 ~180 years old

Timber Wolf (Clan) - 2945 ~100 years old

Cataphract - 3025 ~50 years old

Is something like the Cataphract, which is in the game and only 50 years old, completely obsolete still to the Clan tech that is ~150 years older? How will a Cataphract compare to a Commando, which is 550 years older? Did the Inner Sphere really produce the same 'mech for the better part of a century?

I know it's a lot of questions but everyone talks about the Clan Tech being tough to balance but if we are already using antique 'mechs against something modern like the Cataphract I imagine the clan 'mechs wouldn't be much harder to balance than anything else. Also, since the Commando is a 600 year old light 'mech, will it be a horrible starter 'mech or something?

Kerensky left the inner sphere with a gigantic military machine, scientists and resources. He used them to start a new society and the clans managed to preserve the bulk of the Inner Sphere's technical know how by restricting their methods of combat when they warred on one another. While the IS was stumbling through a real scientific dark age (note i hate Dark Age) the Clans managed to advance...a bit until stagnating.

At the same time the Inner Sphere nuked, biobombed and otherwise obliterated most of its industrial base, did not effectively preserve sources of scientific knowledge, etc

Edited by grimzod, 03 July 2012 - 07:54 AM.

[Bombast]

Reoh, on 03 July 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

I'm looking at 3050 era tech, what we'll be using come launch.

Not really fair to compare Tech 1 level equipment to Tech 2.

Obviously, Tech 1 produces less heat (Which is what makes the IS Medium Laser so absurdly awesome), but generally speaking, the increase in heat with clan tech is far outweighed by its superiority in all other catagories (Range, damage, weight, crit slots).

With a few exceptions, anyone in his right mind will swap IS gear for clan gear, save for maybe the ER PPC, which is pretty much impossible to equip without double heat sinks in most designs.

[Daniel Wraith]

MeiSooHaityu, on 03 July 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

To add in more confusion (and conversation ), Clans used Inner Sphere Mechs as well. Most Clan Mechs we recognize (MadCat, Vulture, etc..) are Omni Mechs, but I do remember the clans running with certain variants of Inner Sphere Mechs that were labeled "II-C". I remember Mechs that were labeled Hunchback II-C, Rifleman II-C, and Jenner II-C. These were vastly improved Inner Sphere designs that were normally given to the "Less Worthy" Clan pilots.

My Question though is, are these carry over designs from the Star League (When they first left and created the Clans, or were these captured and re-conditioned Mechs durring the invasion?

the II-C mech are usually freebirth rides garrison unit mech omni mech are mainly for trueborns

[Daniel Wraith]

An as far as superior yes there tech is but The IS became the masters of salvage an soon was fitting clan tech into the IS rides an took care to reverse eng so by 3055 has begun catching up to clan tech an by 3058 was putting out there own IS omni mechs thou still behind shows that the IS wasnt a slob in arms race with the clans when they showed up

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Arctic_Fox an example of an IS omni mech

[Chunkymonkey]

It will be closer since IS has so much lostech(ER weapons, Pulse Lasers, Streak Weapons, Double heat sinks, and Advanced electronics gear, also the gauss rifle, Ultra 5,and Lbx 10) These were lost in the Succesion wars and only recently rediscovered. If the clans came in 3025, they would have destroyed.

[Bodha]

Chunkymonkey, on 03 July 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

It will be closer since IS has so much lostech(ER weapons, Pulse Lasers, Streak Weapons, Double heat sinks, and Advanced electronics gear, also the gauss rifle, Ultra 5,and Lbx 10) These were lost in the Succesion wars and only recently rediscovered. If the clans came in 3025, they would have destroyed.

idk. Still got the fundamental clan warfare issues. You know... bidding, one v one combat etc.

oh and small trivia for those that don't know... one merc unit in the IS was actually clanners who came scouting before the clans actually showed up. The Wolf Dragoons.

[zer0imh]

natasha kerensky is hot...

heatsinks pls

Edited by zer0imh, 03 July 2012 - 09:11 AM.

[NephyrisX]

Bodha, on 03 July 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

idk. Still got the fundamental clan warfare issues. You know... bidding, one v one combat etc. oh and small trivia for those that don't know... one merc unit in the IS was actually clanners who came scouting before the clans actually showed up. The Wolf Dragoons.

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't they responsible for bringing in the Annihilator?

[Solarisjock]

it didn't really matter when the Clans came, they never had the population base to conquer the IS. Picture Great Britain, a nation with a well trained well equipped military, trying to take over India. they have every technological advantage from strike aircraft to state of the art tanks. yet they have no where near the population to successfully support an invasion.

[grimzod]

Solarisjock, on 03 July 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

it didn't really matter when the Clans came, they never had the population base to conquer the IS. Picture Great Britain, a nation with a well trained well equipped military, trying to take over India. they have every technological advantage from strike aircraft to state of the art tanks. yet they have no where near the population to successfully support an invasion.

They did, of course, colonize India long before then. Does that count?

[Solarisjock]

lol, i was wondering why that voice in the back of my head was telling me to pick a different example. I would say not really, the population disparity was large, but i do not think it was on the scale it is today.

[SOGNeon]

one of the key points I do not see people mentioning is a matter of culture. first aspect is that the cklans upon ariving at thier new home discovered a derth of resources, therefore to survive they had to become highly frugal. they waste nothing. this forced them to reconsider how to do everything including how to conduct battle.

once they realised that fighting a dual resulted in less colateral damage and less wasted resources, things changed from "your factory is producing a better widget than my factory so I will bomb you" to "I am star captain marcus ivonovich, I have come to take possession of that widget factory. if you are not happy with this send forth your champion" (*not the official bachall wording<G>)... they then step out in the parking lot and duke it out so they don't break the factory in the process, because both sides want that factory working when the fight is done.

as this evolved, they continued to build better widgets, but the factory may change ownership a dozen or so times between two clans. meanwhile the workers and engineers just keep trudging along.

look at our own real world history. in the middle ages the church came into promiment power. we all know power corrupts, and church leaders for fear of loosing that power suppressed scientific exploration. think of how far technology has come over the last century and a half, then think that since the church came into power you have an exponent of somewhere between 5 and 10 depending on where you set the date that the church began suppressing development (this is not to insult the religion, but mearly point out that the people running it are fallible)

had science been able to progress full steam ahead we would likely be either dead because corperations poisoned the land, air, and water in the interest of "progress" or we would have colonies throughout our solarsystem by now, and I would be talking to you through cybernetic link. (a technology that is nearing fruition BTW)

so when you consider that the IS continued it's practices of unlimited warfare, while the clans made a point of eliminating colateral damage... their technological advantage is understandable.

where it broke down is pretty well summed up in the first summerset strikers serieswhen the clans invaded they issued a bachall, expecting the IS to respond and bid down to the least destructive conflict (appearantly having ignored intel reports by wolfs dragoons), and the IS wen't "da ell ye say!!!" and proceded to defend with everything they could muster. this only served to convince the crusading clans they had been right that they needed to conquer the innersphere for it's own good.

however, for all it's advanced weaponry, a clanner would prefer to negotiate terms of battle down to fighting with reduced weaponry in a one on one fight. if fighting against superior odds so much the better as it gives more glory to the warrior, which in turn will make it more likely his DNA will be sellected to live on in future generations.

which brings us to the true reason behind the glory hounds of the clans. in the interest of seeing to it the clans produce better and better warriors with each generation (and that is a natural human trait to desire your children to surpass you in time), they would only take the DNA from the best for their cloning projects. (well cloning is not really rthe right term, but you get the idea)... as a result each warrior is continually out to prove themselves to be the best, thus worthy of being the one who is chosen to produce a superior batch of warriors the next time around.

where it breaks down in the real world, is the superior tech tends to draw the player type who cares nothing for the culture behind it, but rather just wants to dominate the game regardless of the methods used... they often have no understanding of the game they are playing. I ran into that in tabletop gaming (infact my bidding process often involved I play my clan mechs, but I will use IS stats for the weapons excluding the weight difference. (range and damage tables) this would eliminate most of my tech advantage, but would still make the game playable for clanophobes)... I ran into the same thing when I played online (starting in MW2ti) where the typical "bachall" I heard from the other players was "no heat tracking? unlimited ammo?", which quickly sent me into rants about them not having a clue about the game they played.

[Reoh]

Bombast, on 03 July 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

Not really fair to compare Tech 1 level equipment to Tech 2.

Obviously, Tech 1 produces less heat (Which is what makes the IS Medium Laser so absurdly awesome), but generally speaking, the increase in heat with clan tech is far outweighed by its superiority in all other catagories (Range, damage, weight, crit slots).

With a few exceptions, anyone in his right mind will swap IS gear for clan gear, save for maybe the ER PPC, which is pretty much impossible to equip without double heat sinks in most designs.

At the same time it's not really fair to compare game launch level tech era with tech not available for potentially years of in game\IRL time. Admittedly depending on how canonical they are with the release of newtech from a 3050 pov, we'll have to wait and see I suppose. Any match making system they utilise should take those factors into advantage. I don't preach for a nerf of clan tech, just an effective counter-balance that will maintain it's accuracy after the power-creep of the years tick by and even things out

Agreed on the med lasers, that's the reason why my approach to that era became pimping out a med.mech with high speed\jump to get close and then med.laserboat clan opponents down by controlling fields of view to my advantage. No matter what I tried it was the most dependable way to counter their technological advantage.

grimzod, on 03 July 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

They did, of course, colonize India long before then. Does that count?

It's actually a great analogy. The Brittish dominated at first, but eventually were forced to leave. The Clans dominated at first, but then were stopped (in large part, mainly due to the Tukayyid truce buying the IS valuable time to retech\upgrade).

Edited by Reoh, 03 July 2012 - 09:23 AM.

[grimzod]

Reoh, on 03 July 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

At the same time it's not really fair to compare game launch level tech era with tech not available for potentially years of in game\IRL time. Admittedly depending on how canonical they are with the release of newtech from a 3050 pov, we'll have to wait and see I suppose. Any match making system they utilise should take those factors into advantage. I don't preach for a nerf of clan tech, just an effective counter-balance that will maintain it's accuracy after the power-creep of the years tick by and even things out

Agreed on the med lasers, that's the reason why my approach to that era became pimping out a med.mech with high speed\jump to get close and then med.laserboat clan opponents down by controlling fields of view to my advantage. No matter what I tried it was the most dependable way to counter their technological advantage.



It's actually a great analogy. The Brittish dominated at first, but eventually were forced to leave. The Clans dominated at first, but then were stopped (in large part, mainly due to the Tukayyid truce buying the IS valuable time to retech\upgrade).

They left because another conflict drained their empire to the breaking point: WW2. The fact that India and Indians played a vital rol ein fighting the Japanese helped their cause as well and the nationalist movements got their wish in 1947/48.

Edited by grimzod, 03 July 2012 - 09:27 AM.