113 replies to this topic

[Paigan]

As PPCs compared to lasers currently are, they are only really good (better than ERLL) as a siege weapon.
Long range, but horribly inefficient against moving targets.
That would be fine if we had assaults on heavily fortified bases or dropships.
PPCs mechs (e.g. Warhawk) would be some kind of siege catapults then.

Sadly, we do not have such a situation, so PPCs compared to lasers are inferior to the point of laugh and pain.
(Try a sniper duel with ERLL against a PPC mech. You'll laugh your ass off and he'll retreat).

Also sadly, Battletech does not know sophisticated balancing / niching mechanisms like different armor types, damage types, subtractive armor, etc. (see Starcraft or almost any other game as a reference).

So here's my suggestion to tinker our own niche inside the BT(+MWO) ruleset to make PPCs are viable alternative to lasers.
Meaning not better, not worse, but different, with their own niche.

Suggestions:
1.) Higher velocity. On that almost everyone currently agrees, afaik.
2.) make the damage be distributed even further accross the mech. Not just 2 or 3 components, but the whole mech or so. Like 5 packets with 2 (IS) or 3 (Clans) damage each.
3.) give PPCs a significantly higher critical hit chance than lasers have. Maybe even decrease that of lasers. Would be even plausible from a realism point of view.

Maybe:
4.) maybe add additional "special effects" like the ECM disruption. Maybe a tiny temporary slowing, MASC disruption, short GUI blackouts for the hit player (would be funny )
5.) also maybe make their damage falloff better and/or remove ghost heat, but those are minor points.

The important part is: they would do a lot of damage and crits, but suck at surgically coring components.

That way, lasers and PPCs would both have viable, even complementary roles:
Lasers are pinpoint, focussed damage, "open them up" weapons
PPCs would be more like a energy special weapon, bad at opening armor, but easily causing criticals and nasty side effects on the targets.

As skilled player with PPCs and lasers would be superior to an equally skilled player using only lasers or only PPCs.
Isn't that what is generally desired?

Edited by Paigan, 07 May 2015 - 06:46 AM.

[HARDKOR]

Up the speed and make it more like an LBX = totally serviceable idea. That way you can still hit at close range and it's not the ultra sniper weapon, but you can still hit them.

Edited by HARDKOR, 07 May 2015 - 06:18 AM.

[Coralld]

HARDKOR, on 07 May 2015 - 06:18 AM, said:

Up the speed and make it more like an LBX = totally serviceable idea. That way you can still hit at close range and it's not the ultra sniper weapon, but you can still hit them.

The problem with that idea is that there are PPCs in BT that are like that, they are the Snub Nose PPCs, and we do not have them yet.

[CocoaJin]

I use PPCs or a combination of ER-PPC and PPCs no problem in both PuGs and especially CW. In the current peek-a-boo environment, FLD and an agile mech is King.

Lasers only beat PPCs in sniping if the PPC guy has his ass out in the wind. While I'm punching you in the mouth with 2 simultaneous bolts, plus a possibly 3rd and 4th, you are spreading damage across 2-4 body parts on my mech. Yeah, you might think you are going stand your ground and just deliver damage as I peak out, but the first time I put 3 bolts in you at rapid succession, I swear before Mech Jesus you will reflexively move for cover. And if you don't, I'll settle for the likely 5 hits I'll put on you by the time I realize you are foolish enough to stand your ground, winning the damage contest.

By the time you realize I'm not peaking anymore, you'll move on to another target...and then I'll peak out and hit you 2-4 bolts again.

[Squarebasher]

I like the OP suggestions.

[CyclonerM]

I like the idea of adding effects like making MASC stop to work for a few seconds. I would also like the NARC distruption to be back, maybe instead of destroying it a PPC would just negate its effect for a few seconds..

Maybe speed can be raised a bit (but just a bit, i do not want to see PPCpocalypse anymore), however i would not be against a slight reduction of CERPPCs' heat. You do not really see them often nowadays since they are pretty hot and if you want to mount 2+ weapons you will probably use ERLLs instead..

[Weeny Machine]

I played the TT only in the 3025 up to ca. 3060. However, isn't a kind of reflective armour plating in place later on which reduces laser damage? I might be mistaken, though.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I'm not a fan of making PPCs behave like LBXs.

LBX weapons are largely ignored as is due to their unfavorable attributes. I'd hate to give those same poor attributes to the PPCs.

I'm not against a velocity buff if it's relatively small (maybe 20% quicker).

[Mystere]

Make PPCs have the following effects on targets:

• ECM disruption (as now)
  
• HUD disruption
  
• % chance of shutdown
  
• heat spike
  
• loss of targetting

basically any EMP-like side effects you can think of.

[Malleus011]

PPCs of both types, bigger ACs, Gauss, LPL, and both types of LL should all be in the same boat - they can, by themselves, work as the primary weapons system of a Medium 'mech - a main gun. (backed up by lighter secondary weapons) A heavy can sometimes mount two of these (or more), and an Assault three (or more). A light can manage one with some sacrifices.

All of these weapons need to be viable as a main gun, but different enough that the 'mech mounting them needs to fight with different strategies.

Right now, two of these classes of weapon are only really good in their 'main gun' role when heavily quirked - the PPC/ERPPC, and the Gauss Rifle. That indicates a core problem with these two weapons that should be adjusted. Opinions differ on how to do that, but we do have a test server ... maybe we could try several, eh?

The LL/ERLL seem to be in a good place right now, at the top of the meta. Most of the ACs on the IS side seem fine for the moment ... except the LBX, of course, which PGI can't seem to figure out.

Clan ACs and the LPL are situational, but still better than the weakest two systems. They could use tweaks, or quirks could be used as a crutch to keep them competitive.

(Note: If you have to quirk a 'main gun' weapon more than 20% total to get players to use it, there's something wrong with it).

(Note: larger LRM systems should also be viable as a 'main gun' weapon system ... but that's a whole different kettle of fish, which requires a complete rebuild of LRMs and ECM mechanics to remedy)

[Paigan]

Mystere, on 07 May 2015 - 07:05 AM, said:

Make PPCs have the following effects on targets:

• ECM disruption (as now)
  
• HUD disruption
  
• % chance of shutdown
  
• heat spike
  
• loss of targetting

basically any EMP-like side effects you can think of.

I would sign all of those except chance of shutdown, how ever small that chance would be.
It's a nice idea, being an electronic overload effect and stuff, but it's just too devastating in combat, especially 1on1

[KHETTI]

.....or, PGI could simply make PPC's work how they should, firing multiple plasma streams focused into a single stream.
ie think of current ppc's crossed with MW3 lasers, like the PPC's in the reboot trailer!.
Other than that, what Mystere said.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

In the moment the ER PPC/PPCs useless ...very bad Hitreg, and no Damage the Rule

[AntiCitizenJuan]

At the HUD disruption effect
Up velocity
Spread damage to nearest 3 locations so 7 damage + 1 +1 +1

[Almond Brown]

Squarebasher, on 07 May 2015 - 06:42 AM, said:

I like the OP suggestions.

except for

Quote

short GUI blackouts for the hit player (would be funny )

Hilarious surely. While you Brawl for your life, others get to turn your cockpit black, on and off, for you... yup hilarious....

[Almond Brown]

Bush Hopper, on 07 May 2015 - 06:44 AM, said:

I played the TT only in the 3025 up to ca. 3060. However, isn't a kind of reflective armour plating in place later on which reduces laser damage? I might be mistaken, though.

Both types exist down the road. Reflective (good against Energy, bad against Ballistics) and Reactive (good against Ballistics, bad against Energy)

Quote

Reflective Armor was first created by the Lyran Alliance in 3058.

Reactive Armor was developed by the Draconis Combine in 3063,

[Gas Guzzler]

Applying 2 or 3 damage to each component across the Mech would be a Nerf not a buff. They would be terrible and out right worse than lasers in every way. Like literally... No reason what so ever to take PPC over a LPL. I think I would rather have a standard LL and waste the 2 left over tons then use a PPC like that.

[Paigan]

Gas Guzzler, on 07 May 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

Applying 2 or 3 damage to each component across the Mech would be a Nerf not a buff. They would be terrible and out right worse than lasers in every way. Like literally... No reason what so ever to take PPC over a LPL. I think I would rather have a standard LL and waste the 2 left over tons then use a PPC like that.

Please read the proposal again. Sorry for the long text. Thank you :-)

[Strum Wealh]

Bush Hopper, on 07 May 2015 - 06:44 AM, said:

I played the TT only in the 3025 up to ca. 3060. However, isn't a kind of reflective armour plating in place later on which reduces laser damage? I might be mistaken, though.

Almond Brown, on 07 May 2015 - 08:36 AM, said:

Both types exist down the road. Reflective (good against Energy, bad against Ballistics) and Reactive (good against Ballistics, bad against Energy)

As a point of clarification:

• Reflective Armor reduces the damage taken against energy weapons, but it has the same performance as Standard armor against ballistic and missile-type weapons & takes double damage against melee attacks, falling, and artillery strikes.
  
• Reactive Armor reduces the damage taken from missile-type weapons, but has the same performance as Standard armor against energy and ballistic weapons & is subject to self-destructing when it takes a critical hit.

There isn't an "anti-ballistic armor" in the same sense as Reflective armor is "anti-energy armor" or Reactive Armor is "anti-missile armor", save for those armor types that have a universal damage resistance (namely, Hardened Armor (reduced all damage by half) and Ferro-Lamellor Armor ("reduces damage by 1 point for every five points (or fraction of 5 points) delivered, to a minimum of 0")).

At this point in MWO's timeline ("early 3050s"), the only armor types available to the IS would be Standard, FF, and Hardened, while the Clans would have only Standard and FF.
The availability of the different armor types can also be seen here.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 07 May 2015 - 09:24 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Paigan, on 07 May 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

Please read the proposal again. Sorry for the long text. Thank you :-)

No, he is right, this is a huge nerf, critical chance isn't a large enough reason to use a splash weapon like this. Streaks would be better than the PPC if it were like this (so in other words nothing would change). If you are gonna create a splash weapon, it needs to have a high damage potential to even be considered (so around 2 to 2.5 times what you listed) and just drop the crit chance, it is a gimmick that needs to stop being used to try and balance weapons.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 07 May 2015 - 09:31 AM.