63 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

SaltBeef, on 11 May 2015 - 07:54 PM, said:

ike load outs that are effective small pulses + u ac20. 6 med + 6 small, 2 LL + 10 small etc. These are good builds, NOVA builds. There are also some dishonest posts here .

Those are not Nova builds.


The Nova can't run them as well, it will always have less cooling, it will always have less armor, it's not even remotely as tanky (due to 50 ton armor, and non-humanoid shape) and it travels at the same speed.

[Sorbic]

Ultimatum X, on 11 May 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

And Clan XL.

We still have people lamenting this mech, yet at some point it quietly became the best 80 ton mech in the game.

I don't know about best but it can be pretty good if you just focus on lasers. Still can't pack enough tonnage to get any real use out of ballistics/srm builds due to ammo restrictions. I just wish they didn't make the lowest hardpoint so ridiculously low.

[MechaBattler]

They should buff standard structure to have additional structure hit points. And Ferro to give more max armor.

It would help this mech as well as others a bit. Although the Ferro would also buff the already strong Timberwolf.

[bad arcade kitty]

Sorbic, on 11 May 2015 - 08:19 PM, said:

Still can't pack enough tonnage to get any real use out of ballistics/srm builds due to ammo restrictions.

hm.. but it can use all its 3 available srm hardpoints completely

full armor except 4/18 on head (when did you die to a headshot?):
c-uac 20 (c-ac 20 have no reason to be used, right?) or gauss with 3.5 tons of ammo and 2 srm-6 with 1.5 tons of ammo
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7df10d3792a9947
c-uac 10 with 3.5 tons of ammo and 3 srm-6 with 2 tons of ammo
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bb00d7b7fe49fad

shaving ~1.5 tons of armor:
c-uac 20/gauss with 3 tons of ammo and 3 srm-6 with 2 tons of ammo
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bb79f52cefc87a1

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 11 May 2015 - 09:09 PM.

[Middcore]

bad arcade kitty, on 11 May 2015 - 09:09 PM, said:

hm.. but it can use all its 3 available srm hardpoints completely

full armor except 4/18 on head (when did you die to a headshot?):
c-uac 20 (c-ac 20 have no reason to be used, right?) or gauss with 3.5 tons of ammo and 2 srm-6 with 1.5 tons of ammo
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7df10d3792a9947
c-uac 10 with 3.5 tons of ammo and 3 srm-6 with 2 tons of ammo
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bb00d7b7fe49fad

shaving ~1.5 tons of armor:
c-uac 20/gauss with 3 tons of ammo and 3 srm-6 with 2 tons of ammo
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bb79f52cefc87a1

Except you can create very similar loadouts with a Stormcrow, and be faster, have better hitboxes, and save 25 tons of weight in your drop deck for CW if you're into that.

[bad arcade kitty]

Gaslight, on 11 May 2015 - 09:46 PM, said:

Except you can create very similar loadouts with a Stormcrow, and be faster, have better hitboxes, and save 25 tons of weight in your drop deck for CW if you're into that.

and be less armored

but that's another question, still, gargoyle completely uses its available srm-6 hardpoints... even if it had 10+ additional tons you couldn't add more than ams and 1 ll/lpl/ppc to that gauss + srm-6 loadout simply due to hardpoints

[SaltBeef]

This mech looks good and has some of the Best Clan Faction Paint schemes, has the menacing look like and Atlas, and is Fast on it's feet. Now it just needs some muscles. This mech does not need a meta load out buff, or cooling buff, what this mech needs is some structural augmenting that brings it into the lets get into the Fight usage.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 11 May 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

The only thing I'd give it is endo, the people crying about it's engine are over-exaggerating because that engine is still better than any engine you can use on almost any IS assault mech.

You will either massively out pace IS Assaults that go STD (some of which have to pay the same weight to be slower), or you will out tank IS Assaults that go XL by a large margin.

This is just a mechanical reality of the game.

I haven't bought a 400XL yet in this game... and I'm kinda pondering it for the Wubshee. The thing is there isn't any good reason to have one because of the tonnage commitment involved, and in the case of the Gargoyle... it eats up the entire mech's potential. A 320XL would at least make it a vastly different beast in its own right... but that's not an option.

At 80 tons, going a large XL engine (325+) is more productive than going in a standard engine of the same size generally speaking. I can't even stand the idea running smaller than a 335 Standard engine on an Atlas, just because it's too damn slow (though that may have something to do with my preferences in Lights).

Quote

FTFY.

It would be nice if you didn't quote me out of context. I'm serious when I'm saying that large XL engines are generally the better method to get many of these mechs functional.

Even back before the Clans, the scarred red Victor meta-builds still had them using exceptionally large engines to make them "functional" builds (we're talking about in excess of 340XL engines - as high as 360XLs)... and this included for the use of brawling (not just poptarting). While the scarlet nerfs have been removed, the effectiveness of the Victor have been vastly changed through the Clans and at this point it is the only effective way to compete.

It's so blatantly obvious that the 80-tonners still need quirks.... the Zeus's armor quirkening is obvious sign, and thus all of the 80 tonners in some way shape and form need requirking.

I wrote as much in my Zeus post months ago.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 12 May 2015 - 12:33 AM, said:

I haven't bought a 400XL yet in this game... and I'm kinda pondering it for the Wubshee. The thing is there isn't any good reason to have one because of the tonnage commitment involved, and in the case of the Gargoyle... it eats up the entire mech's potential. A 320XL would at least make it a vastly different beast in its own right... but that's not an option.

It's not an option for a good reason, because allowing full customization to Clan mechs would basically be the final nail in the coffin for any sembelance of balance between factions.

I know people don't like it, they want full customization - but it's a Pandora's box unless huge swaths of Clan tech just gets nerfed across the board.






There aren't any reasons for IS 400XLs because putting them in IS Assaults is risky - if you could put a 400 Clan XL into any IS assault mech, the tonnage commitment starts to look better because the risk of XL is also mitigated.



You say the tonnage commitment is too high and that's why you don't own one yet, even though every single STD engine above 335 weighs even more.

You yourself won't even run anything smaller than a 335 STD in your Atlas - which is only 1 ton less than a 400 XL.



So you haven't bought a 400 XL because of the tonnage commitment and yet you commit as much or more already into mechs?

I'm guessing you haven't bought a 400 XL yet because of the risk in putting it into IS assault mechs makes it not worth the tonnage commitment.


So we are effectively talking about a completely different piece of equipment.

Deathlike, on 12 May 2015 - 12:33 AM, said:

Even back before the Clans, the scarred red Victor meta-builds still had them using exceptionally large engines to make them "functional" builds (we're talking about in excess of 340XL engines - as high as 360XLs)...

I don't remember seeing many poptart builds with bigger than 350s, especially not the UAC 5 variants.

2x UAC 5s with 5 tons ammo, 2x PPCs, 1x JJ and at the something like 4 extra DHS (the minimum, IMO) to run your PPCs is 38 tons - you would need to shave all of the armor off the LA as well as some leg armor to get there.

I saw more builds in the 330 to 340xl range, for more DHS and travelling at roughly the same speed as 280xl CTF-3Ds, and more armor on the LA because once it's gone you're taking damage to a vulnerable XL ST which is dangerous with or without DMG transfer.

They didn't need to be faster, because they were already some of the faster mechs being fielded at that tonnage range.

Deathlike, on 12 May 2015 - 12:33 AM, said:

It's so blatantly obvious that the 80-tonners still need quirks.... the Zeus's armor quirkening is obvious sign, and thus all of the 80 tonners in some way shape and form need requirking.

I'm not holding my breath.

PGI clearly has not had consistent plan with quirks, even though not even 1 year has passed since it all started.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 12 May 2015 - 08:45 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimatum X, on 12 May 2015 - 08:44 AM, said:

I know people don't like it, they want full customization - but it's a Pandora's box unless huge swaths of Clan tech just gets nerfed across the board.

Allowing full customization in exchange for clan nerfs is what we have been needing because quirks can't save the unoptimized omnimechs that we have and will have eventually. It has made balance between techs overly complicated.

[Weeny Machine]

Scout Derek, on 11 May 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

But is it the best in it's tonnage grade? No, the Executioner will take it's spot as one of the fastest Clan Assaults, considering it's MASC and when it is elited you can go Warhawk Speed.

MASC will boost it up around another 12-14 KPH, making it go 84-86 KPH.

The gargoyle also is the only clan assault to be 80 tons as of now, and comparing it to IS 80 tonners is like comparing the kit fox to the firestarter.

I won't pretend to know how they want to implement MASC but in the TT MASC is a temporary speed increase or else you risk to immobilze your mech. Most likely the MWO MASC will be similar. Therefore you cannot compare a temporary to a permanent speed increase.

[Ultimax]

WM Quicksilver, on 12 May 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

Allowing full customization in exchange for clan nerfs...

Then why even bother having different factions if all we are going to do is normalize all the things?

That's also what a few players might be asking for, but there are legions of clan players who can't even handle IS mechs being brought up to par without crying about it daily - there are a ton of them who hound Russ on twitter daily.

Do you really think those players are going to accept nerfs to normalize gear? I certainly don't.




How far do you think you can realistically nerf things to allow for full customization any?


How do you nerf 2 crit slot DHS?
1 Ton ECM & Active probe?
Better ferro?
Superior engines?
Not to mention all of the massive weight savings you get from clan weapons.


PGI nerfed clan ballistics and made them non-pinpoint, we hear no end of this on these forums and Russ already stated the first incremental BOOST to them is coming in June.



I sincerely doubt they be nerfing clan technology in order to unlock all of the things.

Just as they will not be quirking all IS mechs to be T1 or T2.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 12 May 2015 - 09:12 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimatum X, on 12 May 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

Then why even bother having different factions if all we are going to do is normalize all the things?

You honestly believe that you can't have weapons that are different but are balanced against each other?

This fallacy that equal parity of equipment MUST be only if weapons are the same which is indeed a fallacy.
Weapons can be different but balanced for the most part tonnage wise.

Not to mention there are plenty of weapons/equipment down the timeline that are unique to that tech base (various PPCs, MRMs, RLs, Heavy Lasers, Stealth armor, special Gyros) that help give distinction.

Ultimatum X, on 12 May 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

That's also what a few players might be asking for, but there are legions of clan players who can't even handle IS mechs being brought up to par without crying about it daily - there are a ton of them who hound Russ on twitter daily.

That's not the point in this case, because I know it will never happen, but it is a better solution to this terrible balance predicament when it comes to Clan vs IS debate than to try and quirk under-performing Clan chassis and play quirk lottery with the IS.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 12 May 2015 - 09:30 AM.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 12 May 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

How far do you think you can realistically nerf things to allow for full customization any?

I'll take a shot at this because I'm bored and have a Forumwarrior Itch to scratch...

Ultimatum X, on 12 May 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

How do you nerf 2 crit slot DHS?

One way could be to indirectly influence the number of heatsinks that a mech needs by playing with weapon heat for each faction. The IS could have cooler guns and/or the Clans having hotter guns, which means your Clan DHS might be smaller but you would need to have more of them anyways.

Alternatively, maybe IS DHS could have their cooling boosted, but this could cause a pretty big spike in damage output... Reducing Clan DHS cooling is something I wouldn't do because then that would make a lot of them unplayable.

Ultimatum X, on 12 May 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

1 Ton ECM & Active probe?

The whole Info Warfare system could use a revamp, and would give us a good opportunity to adjust these items. The IS versions could have a somewhat stronger effect to distinguish them.

Ultimatum X, on 12 May 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

Better ferro?

The closest thing I can think of is just locked critslots. We can't make Clan Ferro heavier or take up more space without breaking a lot of loadouts. Reducing IS Ferro crit size might not happen either because people would say it's weird that their lolstock build has more free space now.

Ultimatum X, on 12 May 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

Superior engines?

Clan XL's need a small nerf for starters.

An idea I've toyed around with would be to implement an engine critical hit system, and change it so that an engine kill would require 4 crits instead of 3. This would essentially let an IS mech survive a side loss...but might unleash other problems within the realm of IS vs IS balance.

Future tech Light Fusion Engines might be our only hope here. They're not as good as CXL, but they're at least closer to CXL than what the IS has now.

Also, Clan mechs being able to only use engines that are a multiple of their tonnage (i.e. jump from 320 to 400 on an 80 ton mech) could somewhat reduce how thoroughly tonnage-optimized the builds can be.

Ultimatum X, on 12 May 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

Not to mention all of the massive weight savings you get from clan weapons.

Some weapons like Clan SRMs have to be reworked, it's hard to avoid. Clan energy in general could stand to see a nudge down of damage or something (i.e. -1 damage from all mediums and larges, -0.5 damage and some reduced range on all smalls).

[Wrathful Scythe]

Allowing full customization for clanmechs should be out of question. Clantech would need to be redone from the ground to allow that. Just imagine beeing able to lower the engine of the Gargoyle or the Timberwolf. The amount of firepower would be ridiculous. Put a 340 XL in a Direwolf and you've got yourself a gauss and laser spewing monster with decent speed.

To balance that you would need to punish players hard for using costum XL engines.... like instant death. And even then it would be problematic because clan tech is still stronger than IS tech. Clan tech needs to have limitations and some mechs are too limited (Summoner, Gargoyle) while some doesn't even have limitations. (Timber, Crow).

[Ultimax]

WM Quicksilver, on 12 May 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:

You honestly believe that you can't have weapons that are different but are balanced against each other?

We do not have weapons that are different but balanced against each other.

That works in games like Starcraft, because each faction has completely different units and technology.

That's not what exists in BT.


What we have here are weapons, and then superior versions of those weapons.

They aren't "different", they are upgrades.

They only way to balance them is to downgrade (nerf).


Do you remember 2s CERLLAS? Do you see how enthusiastic players are about burst damage ballistics?

What you are suggesting is not as as easy as it sounds

WM Quicksilver, on 12 May 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:

This fallacy that equal parity of equipment MUST be only if weapons are the same which is indeed a fallacy.

Weapons can be different but balanced for the most part tonnage wise.

Good luck with this crusade bud, I understand what you are getting at but if you actually think that the legions of Clan Space Whale will accept this when they still rattle their sabers about 0.15s of extra beam duration and burst damage ballistics then your optimisim far, far outstrips mine.


There are also only so many realistic mechanics we can tap for weapons which would then not only have to be internally unique (ballistics vs. lasers vs. SRMs vs. LRMs) but would simultaneously also need to be unique vs. the other faction's versions.


PGI is not up to this task.

FupDup, on 12 May 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

One way could be to indirectly influence the number of heatsinks that a mech needs by playing with weapon heat for each faction. The IS could have cooler guns and/or the Clans having hotter guns, which means your Clan DHS might be smaller but you would need to have more of them anyways.

We, sort of, almost have this now. Mostly clan builds run hotter because they do more damage, there are few exceptions though.

It's not clear what would be different from now in your suggestion.

FupDup, on 12 May 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

Alternatively, maybe IS DHS could have their cooling boosted, but this could cause a pretty big spike in damage output... Reducing Clan DHS cooling is something I wouldn't do because then that would make a lot of them unplayable.

How is making the DHS cooling boosted a better direction then quirks? Keeping in mind that the goal of quirks was to also internally balance "bad" IS mechs vs. "good" IS mechs?

I'm sort of playing devils advocate here, I agree with your direction but it opens up other issues.


Personally, I thought items should get HP based on the number of crit slots they have, something with 3 crit slots should have more HP than something with 2.

FupDup, on 12 May 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

The whole Info Warfare system could use a revamp, and would give us a good opportunity to adjust these items. The IS versions could have a somewhat stronger effect to distinguish them.

Stronger EMC for IS, got it.

I look forward to that discussion on the forums.

FupDup, on 12 May 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

The closest thing I can think of is just locked critslots. We can't make Clan Ferro heavier or take up more space without breaking a lot of loadouts. Reducing IS Ferro crit size might not happen either because people would say it's weird that their lolstock build has more free space now.

This touches on my points made to Quicksilver.

We are not dealing with "two different" sets of equipment that can be made "different but balanced".

We are dealing with, almost universally, one faction having outright upgrades to what the other faction has.

FupDup, on 12 May 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

Clan XL's need a small nerf for starters.


An idea I've toyed around with would be to implement an engine critical hit system, and change it so that an engine kill would require 4 crits instead of 3. This would essentially let an IS mech survive a side loss...but might unleash other problems within the realm of IS vs IS balance.

Is that any different/better than just doing cross-faction tech at that point? Honest question, I don't have any answer.

FupDup, on 12 May 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

.

Also, Clan mechs being able to only use engines that are a multiple of their tonnage (i.e. jump from 320 to 400 on an 80 ton mech) could somewhat reduce how thoroughly tonnage-optimized the builds can be.

A decent idea, I'm not convinced it still isn't a huge can of deadly worms.

FupDup, on 12 May 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

Some weapons like Clan SRMs have to be reworked, it's hard to avoid. Clan energy in general could stand to see a nudge down of damage or something (i.e. -1 damage from all mediums and larges, -0.5 damage and some reduced range on all smalls).

Clan Space Whales already asserts that SRMs are balanced because IS SRMs have a minute amount of extra damage, and a minute amount of less spread.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 12 May 2015 - 10:05 AM.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 12 May 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

We, sort of, almost have this now. Mostly clan builds run hotter because they do more damage, there are few exceptions though.

It's not clear what would be different from now in your suggestion.

The values would be altered from their current states.

This means either bumping down the heat on some IS guns, bumping up the heat on some Clan guns, or a bit of both. Personally though I'd rather nudge down Clan laser alpha damage than increase their heat, so they remain more globally usable even on the chassis that aren't fully optimized.

IS SRMs could have their heat bumped down by 1 point each, which would somewhat help the balance between the factions' missiles. That alone wouldn't solve the half weight disparity, but it would help. Clan SRMs probably need something like streamfire mode (but SHORT streams, maybe other counter-buffs like velocity or w/e to keep them usable). IS Lurms might be potential recipients for a similar change.

Ultimatum X, on 12 May 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

How is making the DHS cooling boosted a better direction then quirks? Keeping in mind that the goal of quirks was to also internally balance "bad" IS mechs vs. "good" IS mechs?

I'm sort of playing devils advocate here, I agree with your direction but it opens up other issues.

Personally, I thought items should get HP based on the number of crit slots they have, something with 3 crit slots should have more HP than something with 2.

The modification to DHS themselves was aimed at the balance between the entire factions, not just the poopy mechs on each side like quirks are (or at least, are supposed to be).

More internal HP for IS Dubs would make sense and could help a bit, but I don't think that alone would solve the issue.

Ultimatum X, on 12 May 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

Stronger EMC for IS, got it.

I look forward to that discussion on the forums.

I was thinking more about both factions' ECM's being downgraded from their current state, but the IS's downgraded by a lesser amount.

An alternative idea might be to have IS ECM be a group effect with less strength, while having Clan ECM have a large effect but only effect the user (no umbrella effect).

Ultimatum X, on 12 May 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

This touches on my points made to Quicksilver.

We are not dealing with "two different" sets of equipment that can be made "different but balanced".

We are dealing with, almost universally, one faction having outright upgrades to what the other faction has.

PGI's position on stock mechs and items having their TT weight/slots is something we can't really work around. Fixed slots instead of dynamic slots is almost the only thing I can think of within this context, even if it's not an impressive difference.


The only other idea I have would be a modest durability bump to the IS FF but not Clan.

Side-note: A buff to Standard Structure for both factions would probably indirectly provide enough incentive to not use Endo, and thus having FF used with STD would let you have some small weight savings while still keeping the tougher STD structure bonus.

Ultimatum X, on 12 May 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

Is that any different/better than just doing cross-faction tech at that point? Honest question, I don't have any answer.

Keeping faction tech separate means that we can try to find indirect ways of making things useful... For example, even if the IS engine is crappier on a 1-for-1 basis, the whole IS mech itself might have some other attributes that the average Clan robot doesn't have (i.e. weapon behaviors, quirks, more opened customization, etc.).

Letting IS mechs just directly use Clan XL doesn't give any hope of an "indirect" incentive. I'd rather have IS Luffies, which still mostly invalidates STDs but at least IS XL would still be useful on mechs with certain hitboxes (and just small mechs in general).

Ultimatum X, on 12 May 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

A decent idea, I'm not convinced it still isn't a huge can of deadly worms.

Well, letting Clan BM's mod their engines based on their total tonnage isn't as huge of a worm can as letting them use any engine within a range like IS BM's currently do.

Ultimatum X, on 12 May 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

Clan Space Whales already asserts that SRMs are balanced because IS SRMs have a minute amount of extra damage, and a minute amount of less spread.

But bro, dat -0.02 spread and +0.15 damage make ALL the difference!

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimatum X, on 12 May 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

We do not have weapons that are different but balanced against each other.
That works in games like Starcraft, because each faction has completely different units and technology.
That's not what exists in BT.


What we have here are weapons, and then superior versions of those weapons.
They aren't "different", they are upgrades.
They only way to balance them is to downgrade (nerf).

It can work here, in fact it would have to, because the whole Clan having superpowered tech but the inability to use it all with exception of the Whale hasn't worked to well at keeping it in check.

I understand that Clan tech is a direct upgrade to everything IS in TT, and many TT players will tell you that it was a stupid move for them to pull and the reason many are still 3025 purists. Just because it existed in the source material does not mean it needs to be directly translated or that it can't/shouldn't be improved/corrected.

Ultimatum X, on 12 May 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

Do you remember 2s CERLLAS? Do you see how enthusiastic players are about burst damage ballistics?
What you are suggesting is not as as easy as it sounds

I never said it was easy, but it is easier than the approach that PGI is trying to take because rather than trying to balance weapons in a vacuum of sorts, you are trying to balance weapons by taking several outside factors into account. The Whale has been the single greatest example of how hard this is.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 12 May 2015 - 11:03 AM.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 12 May 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

But bro, dat -0.02 spread and +0.15 damage make ALL the difference!

I'll have you note, it's a 0.2 spread difference.


At 270M, on the SRM 6 (5.7 VS 5.9) it makes a whole 0.95M difference.


An Atlas is ~18M, if I recall. Artemis reduces spread to 66%.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 12 May 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

I'll have you note, it's a 0.2 spread difference.


At 270M, on the SRM 6 (5.7 VS 5.9) it makes a whole 0.95M difference.


An Atlas is ~18M, if I recall. Artemis reduces spread to 66%.

Darn, I forgotted the place values and added an extra 0 by accident.

That's even MORE drastic brah! 5.7 instead of 5.9 is TOTALLY worth 1.5 extra tons!