18 replies to this topic

[Tiamat of the Sea]

The current pilot skill/efficiency system is a placeholder. I'm not talking metaphorically- the original intent was to have a diversified selection of skills, a 'skill tree', and let pilots pick their skills to suit the 'mech. The current system was put in place to occupy that spot until some unknown later date at which a 'skill tree' system would be put in place.

It's been quite a while, and the skill system idea seems to have rather fallen by the wayside.

It is with that in mind that I would like to propose a skill system for use in MWO.

The intent of this proposal is to provide a skill/efficiency system that:

• Contains only skills that have a tangible effect on gameplay (looking at you, Pinpoint.)
  
• Allows pilots to select a set of skills that suit the role they've built their 'mech for.
  
• Works with the existing efficiency system as an outgrowth of that, rather than a complete replacement.
  
• Is customizable within certain limits, so that pilots who choose to develop skills from the same set won't necessarily be getting the exact same benefits as one another.
  
• Consists of skill sets that encourage the diversification of 'mech function in combat; that is to say, encourage role warfare and information warfare just as much as (or possibly more than) current 'deathball' tactics ('deathball' tactics verging on a lack of tactics).
  
• Can operate in tandem with known upcoming alterations to the game (particularly the briefly mentioned 'scouting missions').

This is going to be fairly long, and it's going to be pretty dense. But it has to be, as an analysis of rules, a breakdown of concept, and an explanation of what I'm trying to accomplish here. Anyone posting something to the effect of 'TL;DR' will be asked to leave the thread. You don't have to leave the thread, but I will ask.

I came up with this idea entirely on my own, and am perfectly willing to give up any rights that may be involved (I honestly don't know the legal end of this sort of thing, but I'd be happy to do whatever is necessary to let PGI use the idea).

Okay, so. Moving on to the breakdown of the current state of things, followed by my analysis, and my proposal.

For a quick reference, while the XP consumers currently in the game are known as both 'skills' and 'efficiencies', I will be referring to them as 'skills' only, for the sake of convenience. When I refer to XP, I mean experience points (I'm using an old gaming convention here).

Breakdown and Analysis:

Spoiler

What We're Working With Here

Currently, in Mechwarrior Online, the set of skills available to all 'mechs is uniform, and there really isn't any selection involved. Examining the skills individually yields the following:

• Mastery is always the same and provides a module slot. This probably doesn't need changing, modules are nice stuff for later on and are much more customizable than a selection of skills.
  
• Each tier has a discrete total of XP. Basics cost a total of 14250 XP, and the Elite and Master tiers each total 21,500 XP.
  
• The Basic tier consists of one 750 XP skill, two 1,000 XP skills, two 1,500 XP skills, two 2,500 XP skills, and one 3,500 XP skill.
  
• The Elite tier consists of one 3,000 XP skill, one 4,000 XP skill, one 6,000 XP skill, and one 8,500 XP skill.

The current skill system has some issues. Two are most recognisable, though.

• A good deal of the skills are focused on mobility and agility over all else. This doesn't always make sense, though it's always useful. Twist Speed, Hard Brake, and Kinetic Burst can be particularly nonsensical, as they are unlikely to be of much use to a sniper.
  
• The skill Pinpoint has apparently been obviated. There was a point where its effect was observable (draw a laser across the edge of an obstacle and see how long it takes to refocus so that it's hitting the obstacle instead of flying past it based on hardpoint location) but general consensus is that it currently does nothing at all, or at least nothing of value.

The skills as they currently exist can also be easily divided into subgroups.

• Cool Run and Heat Containment are clearly both heat management skills. They are most important in the midst of a hairball, where you can't ever get the time or space, and rarely the cover, to cool down for a moment between shots.
  
• Arm Reflex, Twist Speed, Anchor Turn, and Quick Ignition are all most relevant in close combat- they affect your mid-fight agility, and Quick Ignition reduces the time you spend shut down if you overheat, which is most important in a CQC situation.
  
• Pinpoint and Fast Fire are both offensively focused quirks (even if Pinpoint no longer does anything) that again have the most effect in close combat, where ranges are shifting constantly and a 5% change in refire rate can mean the difference between hitting and your target being behind you.
  
• Kinetic Burst, Hard Brake, and Speed Tweak are all mobility focused quirks- while they may be useful in close combat, their biggest effect is on a 'mech's overall ability to get around.
  
• Twist X is the only one that's hard to categorize- on one hand, being able to twist farther is very useful in close combat for increasing firing arc, on the other hand it's important if you're moving around at a distance to be able to move in one direction and look in a completely different direction.

This inclines me to separate them into two major categories.

• Close Quarters skills have their strongest effect in combat at ranges of 300m or less specifically because the combat is at 300m or less of distance. This list includes Cool Run, Heat Containment, Arm Reflex, Twist Speed, Anchor Turn, Quick Ignition, and Fast Fire.
  
• Mobility skills are focused primarily on allowing you to get around, and don't really directly affect your ability in combat specifically so much as general capability. This list includes Kinetic Burst, Hard Brake, Twist X, and Speed Tweak.
  
• Pinpoint apparently does nothing at all anymore, which is a shame, but lets it be eliminated from the list.

A combination of Close Quarters and Mobility is the necessary skill set, it seems, for brawling and other forms of close combat. Therefore, it would be easier, result in a more recognisable system, and allow players who like what they already have to keep it if this combination of skills were still possible in the game.

The general concept of the system:

Spoiler

The Current Roles

As things currently stand in Mechwarrior Online, it's pretty straightforwards to break down the roles of a given 'mech and its pilot on the battlefield. The roles that I recognize may be different from the ones you recognize, but that's okay- we're mostly looking at a conceptual analysis here.

• Brawlers get in, stay in, and deal out constant damage at short range. This is actually rarely done, as there is very little that can be done to let a 'mech endure extended close combat. Most 'mechs that wind up doing this are Heavy class, though some Assaults and a few Mediums get in on it too, depending on how well they can compensate for durability with speed or vice versa.
  
• Skirmishers get in, hit hard one or two or maybe three times, and then get out. This is mostly restricted to Light 'mechs and the more agile Medium class 'mechs, though a small selection of Heavy 'mechs can do this as well (usually jump-capable ones).
  
• Anchors are the slow-moving 'mechs with high firepower that don't necessarily get in close and stay in, but which form the basis for the current 'deathball'- they're slow and powerful, and while they tend to peek and hide as much as any other 'mech, they're the main force in combat, and whether you keep or lose one is a big determining factor in a given match. These are usually Assault 'mechs, though some Heavies can fulfill the role (though usually less effectively).
  
• Fire Supporters are 'mechs that specialise in either alpha strike damage or long range long-term firepower, but rely on there being either more obvious or more short-term vicious forces on the field to draw attention away from them. These 'mechs often feel frail (even if they are comparatively average). Most of these are Heavy or Medium 'mechs, though some Assaults fit the bill as well. 'Mechs that are primarily LRM focused (whether or not they're outright boating) fall in this category as well.
  
• Snipers operate by either exposing only a small part of the 'mech or the whole 'mech for brief periods of time, at a long range from the main battlefield. These 'mechs are often either zippy and light or powerful but frail heavier machines. This group operates across all weight classes, and it's a function that nearly any 'mech can fulfill as long as it has some nicely placed hardpoints.

The thing about these roles is that they aren't necessarily exclusive. Snipers can make good Fire Support, Anchors can be Brawlers, Skirmishers and Snipers may be the exact same 'mechs assuming Gauss are involved, and Fire Supporters and Skirmishers may also be the same thing (via SRMs and AC/20s).

Focused Nature- the Foci of 'Mech Piloting

This is because of the set of focuses that a 'mech build and pilot can have in combat. My perception is that there are four main points that a pilot can hold as a focus of their 'mech in terms of how they use it and how they have equipped it. Three of these are exhibited in the current metagame and gameplay, and the fourth really should be a part of it but currently isn't, thanks to the ailing-to-nonexistant state of Information Warfare.

The existant focuses are as follows:

• Mobility. Mobility is about getting where you want to be faster, more efficiently, and more smoothly, whether this is short range (I want to be behind that 'mech instead of in front of it) or long range (I want to reach that sniper position three grid squares over).
  
• Close Quarters. Close quarters is about raw agility and the ability to fire when you want to, where you want to. If it increases your ability to bring your weapons to bear or your ability to constantly unload firepower when you can't get to cover, it's mostly Close Quarters. 'Mechs that are exceptionally durable, capable of spreading incoming damage, or dodgy as their main mode of protection have this focus.
  
• Range. Range is about being able to put your shots where you want them from a distance and use your position, whether it's covered or not, to support your team from a less hectic place than close quarters. Increasing the distance from which you can hit a target or the value of keeping you outside of the hairball that is a close-quarters fight falls under this auspex. 'Mechs with lots of range but a tendency to overheat, or that have to be exposed to fire for a long time but can do so from a distance as their method of protection are using this focus.

The missing focus, I feel, is the specialty of Information Warfare.

• Sensors. This is a fully-support focus. A 'Mech that is built around using NARC or TAG as a main function, that uses ECM to help protect its allies, that has Target Lock Retention for allies to piggyback off of, these are all Sensors functions. While some 'mechs have this sort of function tertiarially, it's mostly just a question of 'Does it have ECM or not?' as things currently stand.

Each focus, then, is allotted a set of skills to equal our current skill set, angled towards enhancing the performance of a pilot and their 'mech in regards to that focus.

From Foci, Form Roles

Given these four foci, it's possible to create up to six 'Roles' that can determine sets of skills. As things stand currently, four would likely be sufficient to allow all the variety that a given player could want, and that also simplifies the potential system significantly. Four Roles also means that each focus would appear in exactly two Roles. Restricting some Roles to certain weight classes of 'mech would also make sense, depending on the Role in question. Steiner jokes aside, an Atlas is not a scout.

The four Roles I would suggest are:

• Brawling. This should be available to all weight classes of 'mech. Using the Mobility and Close Quarters foci would let this Role encompass not just brawlers that get in and stay in, but also skirmishers that jump in, unload, and leave to come back later from another direction. It would also suit close-range anchors by affording them enough agility to handle faster 'mechs just as the current Skill system does.
  
• Support. The other set to make available to all weight classes, Support would use the Close Quarters and Range foci together, letting a pilot devote their entire roster of skills to improving their weapons efficiency. This would suit heavier snipers, anchors of many sorts, and be an excellent choice for most fire supporters of any weight class.
  
• Scouting. By mixing Sensors and Mobility, one gets the Scouting Role. Using superior ability to get into and out of places together with enhancements to sensors and electronics equipment, a Role can be formed that would fit light 'mechs as scouts and also the lighter sniper 'mechs at the same time. Of course, this restricts the Role to Light and Medium class 'mechs, but that's only sensible considering likely engine and equipment weights in a given 'mech class.
  
• Command. Using the Sensors focus with the Range focus results in the Command Role. Appropriately restricted to Heavy and Assault 'mechs, the Command Role would use enhancements to sensors and information along with longer-ranged weapons to oversee the battlefield in a rather literal sense, shooting at targets effectively and efficiently from a distance while making it easier for allies to handle those same targets.

Each Role, then has access to the full set of skills of its two component foci. To create both a limiting factor and the customization promised by the existence of a skill setup, there is a limited selection of skills between a 'mech's two roles within each tier, prompting a pilot to make choices that best fit their piloting style, the 'mech they are using, and the equipment loadout they have selected for that 'mech.

This then leads to the system itself.

The resulting system:

Spoiler

Selecting and Developing a Role
On purchasing a given 'mech variant, a pilot would be able to go to the 'Mech Skills screen and select one of the three Roles available to their 'mech. This would then give them access to the two Focus skill lists for the 'mech. Each Focus skill list would have a Basic and an Elite tier, with the tier access being restricted the same way as now- completing the previous tier (or the same way as projected, should decisions on that change).

However, rather than requiring all of the Basic skills to reach the Elite tier, the system would require one of two things, depending on which works better for the health of the game as a whole.

• The first option is more limited. Completing the Basic tier of skills requires one 750 XP skill, two 1,000 XP skills, two 1,500 XP skills, two 2,500 XP skills, and one 3,500 XP skill. You cannot have more than the alotted number of any given price of skill. Completing the Elite tier requires one 3,000 XP skill, one 4,000 XP skill, one 6,000 XP skill, and one 8,500 XP skill. You cannot have more than the alotted number of any given price of skill. While this grants pilots less flexibility in terms of what they want to do with a given 'mech, it also makes the situation more controllable on PGI's end, since certain skill combinations can be made impossible.
  
• The second option is more flexible. Completing the Basic tier of skills requires a set value of XP (14,250 would be a good starting point) worth of skills, however the player manages to combine them. Completing the Elite tier of skills requires a set value of XP (21,500 is default) worth of skills, however the player manages to combine them. While this grants much more freedom to the player, it makes the skill system harder to manage as with a greater number of combination options for skills, there is a greater chance of an unforeseen skill combination turning out to be excessively favorable. This could lead to both an overpowered option and to the abandonment of certain options, a problem WoW's Talent system suffered from until it was essentially reduced to a cosmetic option set.

Changing Your Mind

Of course, allowing a pilot to make a selection may mean that they find out they dislike the results later and want to change it. This could easily be resolved in a way that provides a use for an excess resource that many players wind up hoarding- namely, XP.

Supposing a player wants to undo their skill selections to make new choices, allow them to spend 10,000 'Mech XP (or GXP) to lose all their skills on a given variant of a chassis so that they can re-purchase those skills.

Then, allow a player who wants to change their Role selection for the 'mech to spend 11,500 XP (or GXP) to undo their Role selection, but only allow this if they have no Skills currently learned.

This means that the cost of going from a 'mech with some skills and one Role to a new Role is 21,500 XP- the same as completing an Elite tier or a Mastery. This also means that a player who hasn't got excess XP on a 'mech only has to build up 10,000- less than it costs to Basic a 'mech- before they can be refunded all their skill-spent XP. With the cost of changing Role selections being less than the cost of completing Basic tier, any player who has completed Basic tier and netted 7,000 XP or so on the 'mech can immediately change their mind and start over with that 'mech with a new Role.

I could see this being a little fidgety if someone attempts to un-skill a 'mech without first removing the module in that 'mech's Mastery slot, but at least it's only one foible to program around in that regard.

The proposed skills:

Spoiler

Mobility
Basic Tier Skills

• 750 XP- Momentum Retention: -5% deceleration rate when jumping.
  
• 1,000 XP- Kinetic Burst: +22.5% acceleration rate.
  
• 1,000 XP- Actuator Efficiency: -12.5% heat generated by non-jump movement.
  
• 1,500 XP- Hard Brake: +25% deceleration rate.
  
• 1,500 XP- Gait Regulation: +10% maximum speed when legged.
  
• 2,500 XP- Twist X: +10% maximum torso twist range.
  
• 3,500 XP- Slope Handling: -10% deceleration rate when navigating slopes.

Elite Tier Skills

• 3,000 XP- Fuel Tuning: +10% Jump Jet fuel OR -10% Jump Jet fuel consumption rate (whichever makes more sense).
  
• 4,000 XP- Backtread: +10% maximum reverse speed.
  
• 6,000 XP- Breakfall: +10% maximum safe falling speed.
  
• 8,000 XP- Speed Tweak: +10% top speed.

Close Quarters

Basic Tier Skills

• 750 XP- Cool Run: +7.5% Heat Dissipation.
  
• 1,000 XP- Heat Containment: +10% Heat Threshhold.
  
• 1,000 XP- Jet Assisted Turn: +10% jumping turn speed.
  
• 1,500 XP- Arm Reflex: +15% arm movement speed.
  
• 1,500 XP- Improvised Shielding: -2.5% damage transferred from destroyed components.
  
• 2,500 XP- Twist Speed: +20% torso twist speed.
  
• 3,500 XP- Anchor Turn: +10% turning speed.

Elite Tier Skills

• 3,000 XP- Bow X: +5% maximum torso pitch range.
  
• 4,000 XP- Quick Ignition: 33% speed up to power up and power down sequences.
  
• 6,000 XP- Fast Fire: +5% weapon cooldown.
  
• 8,500 XP- Hold It Together: +5% structure on Head, Center Torso, Right Leg, and Left Leg.

Range

Basic Tier Skills

• 750 XP- Boosted Firing Charge: +2.5% Autocannon (all types) range.
  
• 1,000 XP- Charge Coil Endurance: +10% Gauss charge retention time.
  
• 1,000 XP- Particle Saturation: +10% ERPPC/PPC shutdown time for ECM.
  
• 1,500 XP- Frequency Adjustment: +7.5% Laser (all types) maximum (not base) range.
  
• 1,500 XP- Infrared Filter Sensitivity: +10% night vision range.
  
• 2,500 XP- Accelerator Magnet Timing: +7.5% ERPPC/PPC projectile speed.
  
• 3.500 XP- Flight Path Superiority: +7.5% missile (all types) travel speed.

Elite Tier Skills

• 3,000 XP- Fuel Burn Efficiency: +10% missile (all types) range.
  
• 4,000 XP- Sensor Coordination: -50% target info gathering time when an ally has the target locked.
  
• 6,000 XP- Image Fidelity: +10% zoom rate.
  
• 8,500 XP- Equipment Targeting: +10% critical hit chance, +10% critical hit damage to equipment.

Sensors

Basic Tier Skills

• 750 XP- Sensor Power Efficiency: +5% duration to UAVs.
  
• 1,000 XP- Probe Tuning: +10% range to Active Probe effect (detect shutdown 'mechs, lock target through ECM)
  
• 1,000 XP- Sensor Fidelity: +7.5% sensor range.
  
• 1,500 XP- Sensor Gear Power: +5% NARC time, +5% TAG effect retention
  
• 1,500 XP- Target Path Prediction: .5 seconds of 'mech tracking after loss of line of sight.
  
• 2,500 XP- Data Analysis: -10% target info gathering time.
  
• 3,500 XP- Scrambler Efficiency: +5% ECM range.

Elite Tier Skills

• 3,000 XP- Residual Data: Retain chassis model and weapon list info after loss of target lock.
  
• 4,000 XP- Indirect Scanning: Visible but non-locked enemies show on minimap.
  
• 6,000 XP- Full Data Sharing: Ally target info gathering time -50% on enemies you have target locked.
  
• 8,500 XP- Unified Sensor Field: Your minimap info shows on all allies' minimaps.

Any numbers provided here are purely theoretical, I claim no supreme ability to accurately find precise amounts for changes without actually testing things.



.....anyway, that's my thought on a thing that could be done with skills. Time for lunch.

-QKD-CR0

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Concerning a Consequence

If you've been paying attention to the entirety of the previous post in this topic, you may have noticed that there are a few seeming oversights in the proposed alteration to the skills system. Namely, that certain skills (Kinetic Burst, Hard Brake, Cool Run, Heat Containment) are absolutely vital to the way the game currently operates- losing these has very severe effects on gameplay balance.

With that in mind, I'd like to make a follow-up suggestion, one that should be looked into even if the skill system is not revamped. Namely, that the values of these four skills be considered and then a certain amount of their power taken out and granted as a general improvement to all 'mechs regardless of skill purchase or lack thereof.

I've chosen these four skills for very good reasons.

---

Cool Run and Heat Containment are constantly vital to all 'mechs. Removing their benefits entirely- a full 15% heat dissipation rate boost and 20% heat threshhold boost after the doubling effect of Elite completion- would have a huge impact on how 'mechs operate in the game.

With the steadily decreasing time to kill on the battlefield, it's possible that lacking these skills would make the game saner, or at least give pilots more of a chance to correct their mistakes, as the amount of damage incoming just after a mistake would be rather attenuated. In which case leaving them at their full power for those who have the appropriate Role set would be inadvisable; any Role containing them would be automatically superior to a rather noticeable degree. In which case I would advise reducing them to a more reasonable level- 2.5% base (5% maximum) for Cool Run, and 5% base for Heat Containment.

If, on the other hand, it is decided that the time to kill is fine and it's more of an issue to be functionally taking away these benefits from pilots who choose not to use a Role that includes the skills, I would advise taking away the majority of their power and instead applying it as an across-the-board buff to all 'mechs. Say, reduce Cool Run to 2.5% base (5% after Elites) and apply a blanket 10% heat dissipation rate boost to all 'mechs, and then reduce Heat Containment to a 5% base (10% after Elites) and apply a 10% heat threshhold boost to all 'mechs.

---

Kinetic Burst and Hard Brake are used constantly by all 'mechs, and also have an effect (though somewhat more indirect) on time to kill. Any 'mech that jumps or even just descends a slope that is too steep to properly run down at the 'mech's horizontal speed uses Kinetic Burst regularly, and Hard Brake has a considerable effect on the ability of a 'mech to peek and then reverse direction reasonably.

I don't think it would be safe to just reduce both of these enough that 'mechs with them are not too strongly advantaged. Rather I'd advise sticking with the second route on both skills regardless- give all 'mechs a +25% acceleration rate increase and make Kinetic Burst a +10% boost (+20% after Elites) and, similarly, give all 'mechs a +25% deceleration rate increase and make Hard Brake a +12.5% boost (+25% after Elites).

---

This would keep things more in hand and allow more flexibility of skills to be actually realized, rather than leaving cases of pilots choosing the Brawler or Support roles in the excessively vast majority.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 11 May 2015 - 02:40 PM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Bumping and reserving a post at the same time. Efficiency! (Not that I'm entirely certain I'm going to need the post, but...)

[Vegalas]

Wow, this definitely isn't the first topic about this subject but this is the longest one. I have on skimmed through your post but I already think you have some good ideas especially when comes to sorting out the skills in different categories. However I think making three different categories selectable for each mech is too complicated. Perhaps i just misread something though. Aren't the mechs driving the role-based gameplay anyways? I take it that the system proposed here is meant separate a pilot skill tree from a mech skill tree. I would totally agree with this idea and I also think it should be developed ASAP. Anyways respect for the post I think people should be paid for bringing out ideas like this and I hope somebody from the dev team reads this carefully. You have probably emailed this already, haven't you? It would be definitely worth the write up. Here is another thread for the record.

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Edited by Vegalas, 13 May 2015 - 01:11 PM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Vegalas-

Actually, the intent is that while the shapes, hardpoints, quirks, and engine capacities of the 'mechs currently drive role-based gameplay, the Pilot Skill system could be used to further role-specialize. I'm recommending using the Pilot Skill system in this particular way specifically because the majority of 'mechs could easily fall into multiple roles. Allowing pilots flexibility as to what their Skills do to their 'mech's performance would enable not only specialization into particular roles, but also creativity on the pilot's part as to what skills are put together for a given 'mech for a given role, thus opening up new gameplay niches.

A close-combat Cicada, for instance, is typically built and functions virtually the same as a scouting or fire-support Cicada. The only serious difference is in what decisions the pilot makes during combat. A more diverse pilot skill system would allow decisions made outside of combat to influence the value of the 'mech in a given position during combat.

Keep in mind also that in the proposed system once a 'mech variant has a particular Role selected, the pilot is only looking at two skill lists for skill selection.

I haven't Emailed this anywhere as of yet, I was hoping to get more responses from other forumgoers and possibly take inspiration off of that for edits and alterations to the proposal.

Thanks for reading!

-QKD-CR0

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 13 May 2015 - 01:21 PM.

[AbsUserName]

Gotta have them all! I like this tree we have because all the skills are accessible. This "select from a group" may be nice for some people (because reasons...?), but I prefer to be perfectionist.

But seriously, I have many mechs with a hundred thousand xp, and have heard of people with 1,000,000 xp... why not allow them to get all the skills?

Perhaps a system where with plenty of xp one could open an extra skill, previously inaccessible? We are talking about hundred of thousands of xp, after all...

On an aside, I think this focus on selecting a set of skills is a relic of the past, where one could only get one profession, or very few university courses... Nowadays, one can master a great number of parallel skills, and even get many doctorates. This "you can only have one set of skills, and must unlearn one to get another" really is not up-to-date anymore.

Parallel skills as in MMA: you must be good at everything to stand a chance!

[Tiamat of the Sea]

AbsUserName, on 13 May 2015 - 01:48 PM, said:

Gotta have them all! I like this tree we have because all the skills are accessible. This "select from a group" may be nice for some people (because reasons...?), but I prefer to be perfectionist.

But seriously, I have many mechs with a hundred thousand xp, and have heard of people with 1,000,000 xp... why not allow them to get all the skills?

Perhaps a system where with plenty of xp one could open an extra skill, previously inaccessible? We are talking about hundred of thousands of xp, after all...

On an aside, I think this focus on selecting a set of skills is a relic of the past, where one could only get one profession, or very few university courses... Nowadays, one can master a great number of parallel skills, and even get many doctorates. This "you can only have one set of skills, and must unlearn one to get another" really is not up-to-date anymore.

Parallel skills as in MMA: you must be good at everything to stand a chance!

The problem with this is that as time goes on the advantage given to players who have been around longer becomes overwhelming. If the skills had no net effect on the pilot's performance in the game, allowing a player unlimited access based on excess XP would make sense, but this is a directly competitive game. With each player in a position adversarial to essentially every other player, the advantage given by an ever-increasing number of skills would essentially remove fairness from the game.

On the flip side, the other possible perspective on doing things this way is that it results in a much longer 'grind' to reach the point where a given pilot has all of the skills for a given 'mech. This then forces more investment of time than there already is in the game, just to reach a point of parallel capability of 'mechs- and while the current 'grind' length is tolerable if a touch excessive by some standards, extending it further would only harm the game.

Ideally there would be some form of middle ground while keeping skills as relevant upgrades to capability, but this isn't possible, really. Either having all the skills is the standard and all players are functionally required to obtain all the skills to remain relatively competitive, or players who have been around longer gain an advantage that prevents the game from being fun for newer players who simply don't have the innate improvements to their 'mechs needed to keep up.

[AbsUserName]

About roles, I'd like to share a tale from the past (my TT past, actually).

The roles on stock builds are very fluid, and not always reflected on the boat-as-much-as-you-can, double-heat-sink-only reality of MWO. One would be heat neutral on each range, and have long, medium and short range arsenals. So one would fire, for example, each kind of lasers according to the distance of the target.

So almost every mech could fulfill every role, so the pilot, in general, would have to be good at every role also. (There are exceptions, of course: some mechs were specialists, like the Charger, which could melee or short range. But that's a isolated case.)

Edited by AbsUserName, 13 May 2015 - 02:03 PM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

True, but that's based on the idea of not being able to change the load of a 'mech on a minute's whim. This is -not- the situation we have right now in MWO, so the game systems have to reflect this fluidity of build in order to ensure a balanced, fair basis for the gameplay experience.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Keeping this in awareness.

[AbsUserName]

I sometimes imagine this game not as a pilot, but as a merc company, or military unit. So it would be very interesting in this game if we had many pilots for each account, and the pilot damage/eject injuries are reflected in the recovery time between battles: won with a still-functional mech, can drop another battle instantly; mech destroyed, must wait one battle to "get back to friendly lines"; mech had a cockpit exploded, must be bed-ridden for a day/week/month/you-know-what-I-mean.

And all those unused hundred of thousands of xp/gxp would be divided between this pilot pool. Unlocked the whole pilot skill tree? Go for a newbie/recruit pilot and grind on!

One side effect of this might be a specialization of some pilots in the pool, with some taking long-range support skills, others brawling, and others crack-elite taking them all.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Interesting idea, Abs. I think that might be a bit much for new players to handle starting out, but that would be a very interesting way to set up the game. It would actually combine well with a skill tree/pilot specialization system like I've worked out here or others have proposed. Have you considered putting a little more time into creating the basics of a system and then proposing it here in Feature Suggestions? It would be interesting to see what kind of feedback you would garner.

[AbsUserName]

A first take would be to integrate the pilot rooster right there in the social tools, like a second unit.

The rooster would be available when setting up the drop deck; and on social tools, instead of "send message", one would "switch to this pilot".

Sorry for hijacking the thread, these are the last messages, unless you agree to further discuss the subject.

But it could integrate well with your pilot skill trees.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

For great justice, move out all bump.

[Uthael]

I am sleepy and I have to admit; I just threw a few glances at the post. However, I agree these changes seem good (at least some). Some efficiencies should have smaller drawbacks. For example; fast-fire could affect heat-efficiency or convergence or lock-on time but one could upgrade it further at the cost of more drawbacks.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

I'd really like to see more thoughts or comments on this.

Uthael, I'm not sure I follow what you're saying on drawbacks? Pilot skills (both current and in my proposed system) don't have drawbacks built into them....?

[Spleenslitta]

Clap clap clap. Well done.
I'd love it if something like this was put into the game. Don't mind the numbers....let's just come up with more ideas.
I'll be back if i come up with something.

[happy mech]

i like the diversity of the skills, however i would not stick to the current system but rather do something like the modules do

• unlock any skill with xp (from any of the 4 classes, once you invest you do not lose it, which is a big thing for casual players)
  
• activate the skills you want to use, 3 for mobility, 3 for sensors, 3 for weapons, 3 for heat management (with some "pick of 2" like if take 10% forward speed cannot take 10% backwards speed for example) to allow easy and affordable experimenting with builds (which for me personally is half of the game)

[Tiamat of the Sea]

happy mech, on 27 May 2015 - 12:34 PM, said:

i like the diversity of the skills, however i would not stick to the current system but rather do something like the modules do

• unlock any skill with xp (from any of the 4 classes, once you invest you do not lose it, which is a big thing for casual players)
  
• activate the skills you want to use, 3 for mobility, 3 for sensors, 3 for weapons, 3 for heat management (with some "pick of 2" like if take 10% forward speed cannot take 10% backwards speed for example) to allow easy and affordable experimenting with builds (which for me personally is half of the game)

An interesting idea, but I'd advise against it- you're talking about something of a balance nightmare for a small studio without spare man-hours like PGI. It would take a whole lot more work to ensure that no one set of skill selections is better than any other when working with a more free-selection setup like that.

Assuming PGI had the time and people to devote to working out and exhaustively testing a more flexible system something like you're describing, I'd gladly entertain the idea.