407 replies to this topic

[LastKhan]

Torchfire, on 11 May 2015 - 10:01 PM, said:

Hmmm I'll just throw this out there, wonder what ballistic quirks the mauler is going to receive? My bet is something like

20% ballistic cooldown
20% ballistic velocity
10% ballistic range
12.5% ballistic heat gen
20% ac2 cooldown
20% ac2 velocity
10% ac2 range
12.5% ac2 heat gen

Could probably fit 2 of those in your Cw drop deck eh?

lol thats to much they'll do what they did releasing zeus by doing general quirks based on its variant type. i dont think 20%. More along the lines of 10-15%

Edited by LastKhan, 11 May 2015 - 10:05 PM.

[Suzumiya Haruhi no Kerensky]

oh man , ac/2s , so good

[Wintersdark]

Domenoth, on 11 May 2015 - 06:43 PM, said:

Edit:
And I do realize you did mostly focus on the complexity, but it's like guilt by association. Because you also said it would be no better than tonnage, your other valid arguments are likely to get dismissed.

Yeah, you're right. The complexity of arriving at the correct numbers are what makes it impractical. After all, would anyone argue that the current game balance is amazingly great, and all the weapons have appropriate stats? And this is after 3 years of tweaking.

My meaning, was that tonnage isn't particularly good, and isn't because it's essentially an arbitrary number without a strong connection to how effective the mech actually is - that's determined almost entirely by hardpoints and physical geometry. Likewise, a point based scoring system like TT's BattleValue would be very similar in that you'd arrive at a totally arbitrary number that doesn't actually reflect the real effectiveness of a mech.

But, you're absolutely right, and I'd hate to get drawn into a moronic argument about why BV is better than tonnage or whatever, when that wasn't really my point in the first place.

It's enormously complex to rate effectiveness in MWO, far more so than in Tabletop. After all, in TT, you know exactly what percentage of the time a PPC will hit it's target, so you can map out it's DPS very accurately. In MWO, the likelyhood of a PPC hitting it's target are far more complex. Flight time directly impacts accuracy, but to different degrees for different players. Weapon location is critically important: A Firebrand can fire it's PPC's while peeking just a bit of it's geometry out, often easily firing over cover, but a Banshee needs to expose a huge portion of it's structure to do it. An Atlas firing it's gorilla arm mounted PPC's will often have a far more difficult time hitting targets (particularly small ones) on broken terrain due to tiny rocks blocking shots.

Then, a change to PPC velocity happens, and increases it's accuracy... but how much? how much do you change it's score by? What about quirks, do you count them? How? PPC's vary in effectiveness dramatically between mechs. What about modules? Do you count modules in BV too? How many points is a PPC worth vs. a PPC cooldown module? Does it scale based on how many PPC's you have equipped? After all, a PPC Range Increase module is vastly more valuable on a mech with 4 PPC's than on a mech with one.

So... yeah, horrifically complicated.

I just get annoyed, because people spout off with this whole "Oh, we just need BattleValue, then everything would be Awesome!" but that's a huge can of worms. It's not at all something that can just be plugged in.

[Torchfire Katayama]

LastKhan, on 11 May 2015 - 10:04 PM, said:

lol thats to much they'll do what they did releasing zeus by doing general quirks based on its variant type. i dont think 20%. More along the lines of 10-15%

Eh well my reason for mentioning this was that if the mauler was a clan mech the quirks would have looked like

-10% ballistic cooldown

[Wintersdark]

LastKhan, on 11 May 2015 - 10:04 PM, said:

lol thats to much they'll do what they did releasing zeus by doing general quirks based on its variant type. i dont think 20%. More along the lines of 10-15%

Yeah, probably fairly mild quirks initially. Running 4 IS AC's will be very dangerous as it is.

[Suzumiya Haruhi no Kerensky]

thats 8 damage, almost as much as a single large laser

[Jess Hazen]

MechaNagato, on 11 May 2015 - 09:46 PM, said:

missing with half the shots isnt the weapons fault

behaves as a **** rotary ac thats shots do 25% damage. clans never get rotary ac. remind me why they decided to screw clan over with crap ac's please.

[Suzumiya Haruhi no Kerensky]

why are you missing over half your shots?

[LastKhan]

Wintersdark, on 11 May 2015 - 10:09 PM, said:

Yeah, probably fairly mild quirks initially. Running 4 IS AC's will be very dangerous as it is.

Indeed since the IS AC's are full dmg per shot makes this a beast of a machine for sure. 15% ACs would be waaayyy to generous for a mech that can house a good number of ballistics based on variant.

Torchfire, on 11 May 2015 - 10:08 PM, said:

Eh well my reason for mentioning this was that if the mauler was a clan mech the quirks would have looked like

-10% ballistic cooldown

This is also true lol. I wish the ACs werent so trash for the clans and according to pariah they are "looking into it".

[Rhalgaln]

Clanners are loosing because of the early quitters:

In every game I face the last 4 weeks one to 3 clanners left the game after the first shootout because the recognize playing vs a 12 man premade.
It might be that some of them have game stability problems, but this would apply to premades too and my teammates are able to reconnect.

Its hard to play vs a 12 man premade but with 1-3 pilots down you don't have a chance even using Clan Tech.


CW needs to be upgraded to the "End Game Content":
Only players with at least 40 mechs mastered should be allowed to play their mastered mechs in CW.
CW should only be available for premade groups.
The CW stats should be popular so anyone can compare his scores to other CW players.

[Nacon]

This gotten dumb.

[Telmasa]

Adamski, on 11 May 2015 - 08:28 PM, said:

You trollin right? The TDR has a compact model / hitbox? They gave it ST structure quirks because its so fat and juicy.
The 5SS has an optimal of 353m with quirks and modules, which is less than a IS LL (450) base range. I'm not going to bother refuting anything else you have to say regarding mech or equipment balance since its obvious you have no F'ing clue what you are talking about.
Yes, the 60% / 53% clan win rate does not represent everything, but it does represent the in match balance when done over a large enough sample of matches. (Tukayyid being an especially good example because you can drill down and see the different premade 12 man win%).
What the win rate does not represent, is population imbalance / territory gained, which is IRRELEVANT when discussing faction/mech balance.

It's flat. If you can't figure out how to twist your torso with a Thunderbolt and minimize your profile between shots (which, thanks to its quirks, is superbly easy), then you're blind. It doesn't need toughness quirks. I'm not the best Thunderbolt pilot ever but even I can rack up 800-1200 damage with my XL-engine TDR-9SE without even trying.

That's just wrong. And the 5SS is only more OP than the 9SE is, in both quirks & hardpoints & being easier to mount a STD engine on.

Those numbers not only don't prove "everything", they actually prove "nothing" about IS vs. Clan balance. Saying it doesn't represent anything about population imbalance is just ignorant.

Tanis McGavern, on 11 May 2015 - 08:37 PM, said:

You want IS mechs to behave like they did in BT canon? Why don't clanners start by behaving like clanners did in BT canon and stop focus firing/spawn camping/using arty and start demanding to drop in stars rather than companies. Never been more frustrated than getting demolished by clan lights swarming a drop zone shooting and dropping arty on anything in front of them. This won't happen, of course, but don't complain of disparity on one side and ignore it on the other.

No. I don't. I drive IS mechs too, in fact I drive more IS mechs than I do clan ones.

I saw far more IS groups during the event doing the spawncamp/consumable spam thing than clan ones, frankly speaking.

As I said, you're only seeing things from your own skewed single side. Play both sides of the fence, then you can start forming your opinions.

IS mechs can be fairly balanced against Clan ones without being given god-mode powers. Normalize all IS quirks across all IS mechs, nerf Streak-6s, give the Stormcrow the Jenner treatment, realize the Timberwolf isn't going to be that great once the Black Knight arrives when it comes to 75-tonner laser boating, and we'll be a long way towards achieving an acceptable level of assymetric gameplay balance.

MechaNagato, on 11 May 2015 - 10:12 PM, said:

thats 8 damage, almost as much as a single large laser

And it recycles every 0.7 seconds (and less than that if you have quirks). Sure it has some heat, but it's such low heat per-shot that it's quite managable despite what Smurfy might say.

I had tons of fun with my 4xAC/2 Jagermech-S before they came up with the UAC/5 jam reduction quirk, so I switched to the Jagermech-DD; when the Mauler arrives you can count on me making that thing the AC-2 boat from hell.

Try getting a full laser burn on me when I'm pumping 8 damage into you almost every half-second. (And can do it from a longer range than you can, too.)

Edited by Telmasa, 11 May 2015 - 10:27 PM.

[Suzumiya Haruhi no Kerensky]

any mech boating ballistics (aside from gauss) has to expose itself for far longer than any laser boat

[Torchfire Katayama]

MechaNagato, on 11 May 2015 - 10:30 PM, said:

any mech boating ballistics (aside from gauss) has to expose itself for far longer than any laser boat

Your kiddin right bro?

[Suzumiya Haruhi no Kerensky]

with 4 ac/2s you would have to expose your self for seven alphas in order to do the same damage as a timberwolf does in one

Edited by MechaNagato, 11 May 2015 - 10:38 PM.

[happy mech]

thank you
+1 for 1:1 balancing

[LastKhan]

hmm whelp put it into practice. walk the walk not talk the talk i say.

By looking at the Mauler's current concept art the ballistics are relatively nipple heightish. and say you have 4 AC 5s with 2 meds as a build which im sure would fit reasonably. Lets exclude quirks. Peaking lets say a hill and you peak over and fire. Thats 20 dmg out the door if alpha'd im sure you'll have at least a second and a half maybe a second to duck down / torso twist away from incoming fire then really its kinda roughly the same or even better since clan lasers have longer burn times thus leading to more face time. unless you're incompetent in your piloting abilities..

Edited by LastKhan, 11 May 2015 - 10:59 PM.

[Suzumiya Haruhi no Kerensky]

poking out my entire torso at 270m or less is not ideal in any mech

[charov]

I am a bit uncertain about this. I played a dozen matches with a Atlas Founder because of the last challenge (I was third but then I gave up due to lack of spare time) and I had more problems dealing with Stalkers 4N then any TW o Crow. Probably because I usually played clans since the Invasion, so I know where hit them. Also, Clans usually do more damage but the critical point here is the beam time. No point in "washing" the target with lasers when you can fire less but get a kill.

I played 15 matches during the Battle of Tukayyid and I've won most of them. Why? Because my opponents were a bunch of terribad pugs, with avg damage like 500 or 600 ( how can you be so bad?!). I have lost only when I've found competent opponents on the other side of the map and I'm not talking about 12-man premades, just small groups of 2-3 players but with a known tag.

The problem with IS is that the vast majority of the random players are in their rows. That doesn't usually happen with clans.
I would really like to see the avg Elo of the two factions.

[Nightshade24]

Tom Sawyer, on 11 May 2015 - 02:32 PM, said:

Rejoice clanners for your whines of IS OP has been heard.

Once again the IS gets screwed over. It was not enough that we got flooded with attacks and could only respond.

How about Tukayyid 2 where the clans have to defend and we can flood attack?

Really? remember the event before Tukayyid that basicly clans lost what... 47 planets without gaining ones?

IS cries clans OP when Clans out number IS in players and win due to CW bug: nerf clan weapons in general
Still happens?: buff IS drop deck
Still happens?: Nerf clan engine and energy weapons more
Clans now so underpowered that a bare fraction of the community stuck with clans (in active CW) and is lossing many planets while IS gain x4 more planets then clans per day?: #Perfect ballance.
IS now getting dozens of planets in a week without clans getting anything, clans are getting nearly to the same point they were at day 1 of CW map: "Oh, IS isn't OP, it's just MM issues that has been around forever and obviously clans were still OP and it wasn't MM issue, lets just fix that issue and not do anything with clans at all!"

now CW has relatively equal wins and losses and now it's back to clans OP?

Good to know.










With that sarcastic wall out of the way from the majority os IS whiners on the forums.
I do hope to see the clan quirks to be improved quite a bit and removing the linked ghost heat AT LEAST for smaller energy weapons and upgrading clan ER Large lasers/ pulse to 3's like IS.