61 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

In another thread, someone recently posted this great rant by Mack about the Heavy Metal.


Basically, his verdict is this:
"It can't brawl, it can't snipe, it can't poptart, it can't move fast enough to pop in and out of cover and it doesn't have enough firepower to meet other assault mechs head on." (paraphrased)

This was true then, and it's even more true in 2015. Other assault mechs can run circles around the Highlander, have double the amount of firepower, better hardpoint locations for sniping, and even though poptarting is dead, the Victor is a lot better equipped for it than the Highlander.

What is the ideal role of the Highlander?

Sarna.net describes it like this:

Quote

The Highlander is one of the most well-known Star League Defense Force assault 'Mechs, serving with distinction for almost two centuries since first entering service in 2592. Initially designed as a dedicated city and installation defender, the original model featured a variety of weaponry along with fifteen and a half tons of Ferro-Fibrous armor, but perhaps its most useful asset were the three Hildco jump jets giving it a jumping range of 90 meters. The heaviest 'Mech design to feature jump jets at the time, their original task was to allow the Highlander the ability to jump over inconvenient obstacles such as buildings and outpace other 'Mechs with a faster ground speed, but because of this increased mobility and its versatile weaponry the Highlander proved to be a capable fighter on any battlefield and within decades nearly every BattleMech regiment of the Regular and Royal Armies featured them. However it was during the design's initial trial runs that pilots began using these 'Mechs in what would infamously become known as the "Highlander Burial". Leaping into the air and landing directly on their enemy, a Highlander could literally drive a light 'Mech into the ground. So successful was this maneuver that the design team re-engineered the legs to withstand repeated death-from-above attacks and turned what had been a desperation move into an art form, giving Highlander pilots an additional psychological edge.

Since we don't have collisions, Highlander Burials are impossible. But let's look at the other things mentioned:

• Great mobility thanks to jump jets
  
• Faster ground speed than other mechs
  
• Versatility

We all know the status of the Hover Jets right now. They're the most useless piece of equipment in the game, bar none. Furthermore, the Highlander (90 tons) has a max engine rating of 325, while the Battlemaster (85 tons) and Banshe (95 tons) both have a max engine rating of 400!! The Battlemaster has a max speed of 83.9 kph, the Banshee has a max speed of 75 kph, the Highlander has a max speed of 67.5 kph.


In regards to versatility? Well, as Mack pointed out 2 years ago, it can't really do anything very well. It's outgunned in a brawl, outdrawn in a sniper match due to its low hardpoints and terrible speed and it can't poptart.

Conclusion:
The most defining advantages of the Highlander, as described in lore, are its worst weaknesses in MWO.

So what can be done? Fixing the jump jets is a no brainer, but where do you go from there? Even with good jump jets, how are people supposed to play the Highlander? Do you make it the ultimate assault mech poptart? Because you can't really hillhump and brawl very well when it takes an eternity to accelerate to full speed or decelerate to a full stop. The Highlander is a Juggernaut without any offfensive capabilities, a runaway train with no brakes that ultimately just crashes into a mountain wall (i.e. a Dire Wolf) and dies instantly.

I would argue that the most effective way to play the Highlander right now... don't laugh... is to use it as an LRM boat. That's how bad it is at everything else.

A lot of people will say it can't be fixed, because hardpoints. Hardpoint locations are terrible and can't be changed. Everyone just aims for your Right Torso and you die. Fair enough. But I will say this:

If the Highlander could equip an XL400 engine, at least you could try to use mobility to avoid taking too much damage. And you might have enough heatsinks to run AC20+2LPL builds (733C), or Gauss+3LPL (732) or even 4LPL builds (733P).

And if you don't think the Highlander will work as a mobile assault mech in MWO, what do you think is the ideal role for it? How can you adjust its stats and quirks to work in this game? Is poptarting or LRM boating the only thing that can save it?

TL;DR - The Highlander is supposed to be a highly agile, mobile and versatile assault mech. Right now, it's neither of those things. When PGI fixes jump jets, they need to increase engine cap considerably. 5% speed quirk is almost meaningless.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 14 May 2015 - 01:33 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

The Highlanders can brawl. Their (and Victor's) hardpoints is similar to Atlai's.

Actually, I use my Highlander's for brawling. For example, 733C can carry AC/20+MLs/LLs+SRMs and 733 can carry 4x SRM6.


EDIT: I just want to put this vid here (Lordred/HGN vs Koniving/DWF):

Edited by Hit the Deck, 14 May 2015 - 01:51 AM.

[Romeo Deluxe]

I rarely run Heavy or Assault but the 733C is a decent brawler still. Before ghost heat it was an amazing brawler. I also completely disagree with you regarding JJ's, they add great mobility to any mech. Most fun I had was circle strafing in Highlanders.

Adding that I have never owned a Heavy Metal. I'm not a Gauss user as well, so I can't comment on what the poster above said. AC20 is a good killer. Some people don't like them but I think they are great.

Edited by Romeo Deluxe, 14 May 2015 - 01:58 AM.

[Satan n stuff]

Highlanders are pretty decent brawlers, those that disagree just can't run them very well. They're also good snipers, and at least one makes a good Lurm mech if you're so inclined. The jump jets are a huge advantage especially on multi-tiered maps and maps with lots of rough terrain, but you won't really appreciate them until you've gotten used to having them and switch to something that doesn't have them. As far as it's agility is concerned, it's an assault mech, it's already more maneuverable than most assaults by virtue of having jump jets. If it could move like a typical heavy as some people insist it should nobody would ever use anything else. The idea that you should be able to easily pop and shoot with anything that carries 500+ armor is ridiculous, you don't expect to be able to do that with an Atlas or Banshee, so why would you expect it from a Highlander? Even the lightest assaults don't have nearly the same agility as a Thunderbolt, but they can easily outgun one and so can the Highlander.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 14 May 2015 - 02:13 AM.

[Amsro]

Romeo Deluxe, on 14 May 2015 - 01:56 AM, said:

I also completely disagree with you regarding JJ's, they add great mobility to any mech.

You mean current JJ? I can believe what I'm reading.

Highlanders have 2t hover jets, that no longer allow you to get on top of buildings. Good luck jumping over any mech. JJ are still comical in this game 2 years later.

[Romeo Deluxe]

Then you have failed to adapt. I typed fast and didn't add but the JJ's on the Highlander is what made it fun to brawl with. I don't need to get on top of a building for that.

Edited by Romeo Deluxe, 14 May 2015 - 02:18 AM.

[QuantumButler]

Amsro, on 14 May 2015 - 02:14 AM, said:

You mean current JJ? I can believe what I'm reading.

Highlanders have 2t hover jets, that no longer allow you to get on top of buildings. Good luck jumping over any mech. JJ are still comical in this game 2 years later.

It'd be one thing if the Hugelander's HoverJets were 1 ton each, but no, they each weigh as much as a goddamn medium pulse laser, and give you about as much jump height as the average 600 pound person, yet because of these useless hoverjets it also gets worse quirks and fewer hardpoints, what a great tradeoff!

[Hit the Deck]

Although HoverJets basically suck, they are still pretty useful for mobility purposes, like for example, hopping over fallen trees or rocks. On Canyon Network, Highlanders can hop to the top level from the ground below when there's a sufficient slope. Taking one ton of JJ is worth it IMO.

I guess this is pretty much what PGI thinks how JJs should behave on heavier mechs.

[LowSubmarino]

Alistair Winter, on 14 May 2015 - 01:32 AM, said:

In another thread, someone recently posted this great rant by Mack about the Heavy Metal.


Basically, his verdict is this:
"It can't brawl, it can't snipe, it can't poptart, it can't move fast enough to pop in and out of cover and it doesn't have enough firepower to meet other assault mechs head on." (paraphrased)

This was true then, and it's even more true in 2015. Other assault mechs can run circles around the Highlander, have double the amount of firepower, better hardpoint locations for sniping, and even though poptarting is dead, the Victor is a lot better equipped for it than the Highlander.

Hahahahaa....Macks epic rant about little twats that wanne burn him at the stakes for jokes about women is just funny. Made me laugh multiple times.

So great.

Im totally with you Mack. 100 % support here!!! dwl

[Torgun]

Just like the Victors, the role of Highlanders is to stay put in the mechbay ever since they made assaults get hoverjets. PGI had so many options to get rid of the poptarting, and they chose the worst one possible. My 3 Victors are just waiting to be sold when I run out of mechbays.

[Duke Nedo]

In theme with lore would be to buff JJs a bit, and also give it a Shock absorbance quirk?

[MeiSooHaityu]

For one thing, Mack is not a great source for mech critiques. He's amusing to watch at times, but if he can't shove 6+ LLasers on something, he says it's crap. That's why he made a bunch of whiner posts and quit when ghost heat first hit. Mack doesn't do sustainable fire, if he can't ridiculously high alpha, it's like his "mwo world" comes crashing down.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue that the Highlander doesn't need a bit of help through quirks (maybe some mobility bonuses), but it isn't an absolute mess either. It just can't fire 6LPLasers without ghost heat, so Mack doesn't like it .

[Tahribator]

Brawler. It has the potential to be the THE brawler on the IS side, but it's sluggishness, lack of JJs and heat generation quirks cripple it.

[Alistair Winter]

Thanks for your response, guys. I'll do this in bulletpoint format, because it's easier.

• "It's not the mech, it's the pilot." On a strictly philosophical level, that is true. A perfect player will be able to do anything with any mech. However, this is a thread about gameplay balance, so the idea that any obstacle can be overcome with the right skills is not useful here. Otherwise, there would be no point for PGI to balance the game what so ever.
  
• "The Highlander can brawl." In absolute terms, this is correct. Any assault mech can brawl. There are many assault mechs that can equip AC20s, SRMs and medium lasers, which makes them suited for brawling. But in relative terms, the Highlander doesn't really brawl as well as other assault mechs. It can equip an AC20, fine. The King Crab can equip two. It can boat 4SRM6's, fine. The AS7-S can do the same, with a tighter spread. The Battlemaster can do the same, and also equip an XL400 engine, making it a lot easier to get in range.
  The Highlander's hardpoints do not make it uniquely suited for brawling in any way, and its lack of speed makes brawling even harder.
  
• "The Highlander's jump jets are a huge advantage right now." I really don't know what to tell you. We'll agree to disagree.
  
• "Mach's epic rant about little twats is funny". You're god damned right.

[LowSubmarino]

MeiSooHaityu, on 14 May 2015 - 02:48 AM, said:

For one thing, Mack is not a great source for mech critiques. He's amusing to watch at times, but if he can't shove 6+ LLasers on something, he says it's crap. That's why he made a bunch of whiner posts and quit when ghost heat first hit. Mack doesn't do sustainable fire, if he can't ridiculously high alpha, it's like his "mwo world" comes crashing down.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue that the Highlander doesn't need a bit of help through quirks (maybe some mobility bonuses), but it isn't an absolute mess either. It just can't fire 6LPLasers without ghost heat, so Mack doesn't like it .

Whatever....

Mack's funny.

[kapusta11]

Increase PPC speed to 2000
Increase PPC Ghost heat limit to 3
Now it's useful again.
Why, it's still nowhere close to Direwhale.

[Alistair Winter]

MeiSooHaityu, on 14 May 2015 - 02:48 AM, said:

For one thing, Mack is not a great source for mech critiques. He's amusing to watch at times, but if he can't shove 6+ LLasers on something, he says it's crap. That's why he made a bunch of whiner posts and quit when ghost heat first hit. Mack doesn't do sustainable fire, if he can't ridiculously high alpha, it's like his "mwo world" comes crashing down.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue that the Highlander doesn't need a bit of help through quirks (maybe some mobility bonuses), but it isn't an absolute mess either. It just can't fire 6LPLasers without ghost heat, so Mack doesn't like it .

I just included Mack for sheer comedy value, as an opening to get things started. And I quoted the part I feel is accurate.

My actual arguments were below the video

[Romeo Deluxe]

Well then we disagree on the Highlander and JJ's. I will now step out of the thread because I think you are completely wrong.

[Hit the Deck]

Alistair Winter, on 14 May 2015 - 02:59 AM, said:

Thanks for your response, guys. I'll do this in bulletpoint format, because it's easier.

• "It's not the mech, it's the pilot." On a strictly philosophical level, that is true. A perfect player will be able to do anything with any mech. However, this is a thread about gameplay balance, so the idea that any obstacle can be overcome with the right skills is not useful here. Otherwise, there would be no point for PGI to balance the game what so ever.
  
• "The Highlander can brawl." In absolute terms, this is correct. Any assault mech can brawl. There are many assault mechs that can equip AC20s, SRMs and medium lasers, which makes them suited for brawling. But in relative terms, the Highlander doesn't really brawl as well as other assault mechs. It can equip an AC20, fine. The King Crab can equip two. It can boat 4SRM6's, fine. The AS7-S can do the same, with a tighter spread. The Battlemaster can do the same, and also equip an XL400 engine, making it a lot easier to get in range.
  
  The Highlander's hardpoints do not make it uniquely suited for brawling in any way, and its lack of speed makes brawling even harder.
  
• "The Highlander's jump jets are a huge advantage right now." I really don't know what to tell you. We'll agree to disagree.
  
• "Mach's epic rant about little twats is funny". You're god damned right.

It's true that HGNs aren't particularly good at any thing and it's because of their hardpoints combined the current state of the game (weapons, JJs, etc.). I just want to point out that they can still brawl.

[Alistair Winter]

Hit the Deck, on 14 May 2015 - 03:06 AM, said:

It's true that HGNs aren't particularly good at any thing and it's because of their hardpoints combined the current state of the game (weapons, JJs, etc.). I just want to point out that they can still brawl.

That's fine, and that's how I use them. I don't use my Highlanders as LRM boaters. I don't use gauss rifles, they're too ugly on this mech. I pack an AC20 or 2xUAC5 or 4 SRM launchers. I can't play the Highlander with a lot of finesse, because it's not as nimble as the Victor or the AWS-9M.

So I brawl with the Highlander, and I try to make the best of its firepower and its armour quirks. The problem is, laservomit mechs have the pinpoint accuracy to take out my right torso really fast, and I don't have the speed to dance around them very well. Torso twisting works great for the Victor, but it's a lot harder with the pondering Highlander.

Since versatility isn't very useful in MWO, I do think brawling should be the ideal role for the Highlander. But I think it needs more speed and better jump jets to be on par with other Inner Sphere assault mechs.

I have no idea how you'd make the Highlander on part with the Dire Wolf or Warhawk. In my opinion, the Clan mechs beat the Highlander every time, if the pilots are equally skilled. (I see your video up there )