59 replies to this topic

[Catalina Steiner]

Due to the reason that this (valuable) discussion could not be lead without inappropriate language, insults and unconstructive content, some posts were deleted, others were edited.

This thread will be opened again now after this work but we will make short work closing it immediately if this kind of discussion continues.

[RogueLdr]

We had two mechs and one weapons system worth taking into CW...

Both have been nerfed.

Enjoy your wave 3 mechs while you can, once they drop, the mechs you paid a crap ton of cash for will be nerfed as well.

I for one refuse to give this game any more money.

[Havyek]

OP and anyone who liked OP need to re-evaluate their play style, because it's bad if you're getting wtfpwned by Thunderbolt 9SE, BJ 1X, Jaeger DD, DRG 1N and WVR 6Ks.

I've played in groups both on IS side and Clan side, and apparently both sides are OP.

If each side is crying that the other side is OP, I figure PGI's put everything in a pretty good spot.

Edited by Havyek, 18 May 2015 - 10:32 AM.

[Nightmare1]

With all the Clan Nerfs, PGI should really unlock the chassis. I regret ever buying my Wave I Pack. I still haven't even Mastered most of those Mechs; they just aren't fun to play. Even the much hyped T-Wolves and Stormcrows I have feel boring and bland. They just sit in my garage, gathering dust. I feel like I wasted a pile of money. The Clans are inferior to the IS and I can't even play Legos with them in the Mechlab; what's the point of having them?

I'm seriously thinking about selling them all off at this point so that I can get those extra two Atlases and King Crabs so that I can finish Mastering the free ones I got. Then I'll start collecting all the IS Mechs using my old Clan Mechbays to house them.

[B o S S]

Dear PGI, are you serious? Please, nerf, nerf and nerf again IS mechs. Thunderbolt, Wolwerine and Dragon as first, the are not OP, they are UBER!
Did you never play MWO dear PGI?
I bought different packages of mechs, this is not the right way to do business with a customer like me and the others.
If you buy a Mercedes, you'll expect to drive a Mercedes, not a Mercedes that become a car made in America after few months!
This is a scam and I feel cheated

[Tesunie]

Kelenas, on 18 May 2015 - 12:24 AM, said:

I think the TBR and SCR did need a little nerf, but these are pretty brutal. Making every laser hardpoint make your lasers worse, even if you aren't using it does not seem like the answer. It straight up kills clan side laser vomit, which while it needed a bit of a nerf, should still be a viable thing to do. With something like a 20% nerf to duration and cooldown it will not be.

I'm of the opinion that the Timberwolf needs to be the benchmark mech that all others are judged against. Complaining that THE iconic mech in the game is too good always struck me very counterproductive. Of course it's the best, it's always been the best, that's the point of the Mad Cat.


Am I misreading how big of a nerf 3% cooldown and duration per energy hardpoint is or are you?

Don't forget, you can change your Omnipods on your mech. If the pod with lots of energy hard points has the nerfs (and as your example above says you aren't using those hard points), then place in a more reasonable pod in with better quirks.

By the way, it isn't 3% "per energy hard point", it's a 3% to the weapons. If you are adding each hard point's "penalty" as part of the nerf, I can see why you would be over reacting in this manner.

My point is (besides the fact that 3% is a small number) that I'd rather see the effect go into game and see how it feels. As I jokingly said to a unit mate who loves clan mechs, "If I find out the Timberwolves and Stormcrows no longer can hurt me, then it's good!" Basically, if they start to be underpowered in performance, they can always change them back. Right now, I don't know about others but I'm tired of the laser only meta I've been seeing for clans. I like variety. I also get tired of fighting only the same two/three mechs all the time, and would like to see more chassis than that from the clans.

Kazzun, on 18 May 2015 - 01:09 AM, said:

Cooldown nerf wouldnt be that bad for already hot running Clan vomits..

Duration is the point.

Sure Players will adapt but it is imho too much.

I can understand this. See how it feels after the change, and if the duration is too long again, submit a (reasonably nice worded, with logic and maybe some evidence) post about it and request it be changed back.

Right now, I'm seeing the knee jerk reaction I saw back when LRM speeds where being buffed. People complained before it was even implemented that it was OP. Got it into game, and it wasn't unreasonable. Those that complained before hand wanted it changed right back to what it was before. Instead, we got them slowed down a tad from the buff once PGI gathered some information on the new performance of LRMs.

I'm just advising we let the changes happen first, test it out, and then provide a more informed opinion about it. These percentages (unless I read it wrong) was just a 2-3% change. It wasn't a 20-50% swing. And it happened on mechs that are basically unapproachable and generally recognized as the two best mechs in the game. Lets see if these changes balance those chassis out a bit first. Then complain if they seem too underpowered.

Using the line "It's a Timberwolf/Stormcrow. It's suppose to be OP" is not a good counter point. (Not directed to the person I quoted. Just so you realize this.)

Wolfhagen, on 18 May 2015 - 03:50 AM, said:

Has nothing to do with panic. Its math and experience. ERLL was duration ~1 sec and strong, became 1,5 sec and useless.
All laservomits dropt the erll for lpl and erm.
Now erm an lpl on timber and crow will have a duration ~ 1,5 sec. What do you expect will happen ?

Maybe down their in the "lrm are viable weapons" skill level, where mechs stand still to shoot on each other this doesnt matter. But i am not willing to loose 500 games in a row to reach this elo and pay 350 bucks a month for it.

If PGI doesnt need their serious and serious paying gamer any longer or simply does not know the mechanics of their own game. Ok, its not my fault and not my problem. Their is a shitload of other games i can play and pay for it.

Let the change happen. See how it runs. Last I recalled, it's a 2-3% change here or there. Lets try it out first. It might not be as bad as you think it is. (Then again, if your heart is already set that it's going to be bad, it probably will feel worse than it is for you.)

Also, you should be able to diversify your build a bit. If you take all the energy hardpoint omnipods for a mech, then it will make your energy weapons weaker because of quirks. Maybe, add in some CLRMs (which I might remind have no minimum range) or some SRMs? You don't have to boat a weapon system to make a good mech.

Overall, if the changes are truly detrimental, as I stated already in this post, make a feedback thread/post about it after you at least give it a try. Play with it for 2-3 days before you make your determination. Get some experience and a more informed opinion about the change. If you still don't like it, be nice about how you word your feedback and say why you don't like it (nicely). At that point, I will be far more apt to take your opinion more seriously, and with more consideration. Right now, it looks like a knee jerk reaction to me about how your favorite mech(s) are going to be hindered slightly. (As I said, I see this every time a nerf is announced. Don't even give it a chance before people complain about it.)

[Nivison2]

@Tesunie
1. What they mean by the 3% per laser hard point is that if an omni pod gives two laser hardpoints it increases CD and Duration by 6%. Now i wouldn't care personally if they gave us other opitions, but as it stands right now, theres only one TBR arm that gives anything other then 2 energy hard points. Torso's are a bit better, but all around focusing on energy weapons, which leads me to my next point
2. They claim they want to have build diversity, yet our AC/LBX's suck and missiles are useless, or next to useless with the amount of ECM in the game, leaving us with only energy weapons, on top on that the majority of the TBR's weapon are energy focused, with very little being directed towards anything else.
3. i not quiet sure you got the full impact of the Omnipod quirks. all the nerfs they just listed stack together for a minium of 15% increase of duration and a 15% increase of CD. At minium....
4. the "nerfs" on the firestarter, raven, and Stalker, weren't really nerfs at all, more along the lines of less of a buff, and personally i don't know why they needed a buff to start off with.

[Idealsuspect]

6S BoSS, on 18 May 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

I bought different packages of mechs, this is not the right way to do business with a customer like me and the others.
If you buy a Mercedes, you'll expect to drive a Mercedes, not a Mercedes that become a car made in America after few months!
This is a scam and I feel cheated

Crap, you pay for a P2W game and at last it's a F2P yep you can feel cheated...
PS : BOUahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahhaha



PS : When you buy a package and find thoses mechs have bad/huges hitbox you happy when PGI fix it right ? Isn't anymore the original mercedes you bought one week before but you happy anyway with the fix... also keep going happy and don't change mind when you get some nerfs about real obvious OP mechs.

Edited by Idealsuspect, 19 May 2015 - 08:26 AM.

[xLUPOx]

when Clan Mechs appeared for the first time, with the first clan wave, all said that those mechs were OP... so PGI started to nerf...
after the wave two, PGI quirked some IS mechs (rly bad distributed quirks: Awesome is a PPC god...and the Higlanders/Atlases/Victors are quite useless in this last meta-game, and are taking rust in the mechbays).
So what's the situation?
PGI continue to nerf and nerf and nerf Clans since the first wave (WHY ?!?!?)... in the CW is more simplier fight in a IS mech than in a Clan one.
And this is shown by the lost territories by the Clanners.

IMHO
PGI after the first nerf, on the CLAN WAVE ONE, should have think only to quirk in a better way IS mechs, and leave the Clans free from other nerf.
Don't forget that, by Battletech lore, Clan Mechs should have to be a little bit "stronger" than the IS counterpart, but this was balanced by different numbers of mechs for lances:
IS team --- 3 lances of 4 mechs
VS.
Clan team --- 2 lances of 5 mechs

Edited by xLUPOx, 19 May 2015 - 12:27 AM.

[Kelenas]

Tesunie, on 18 May 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

By the way, it isn't 3% "per energy hard point", it's a 3% to the weapons. If you are adding each hard point's "penalty" as part of the nerf, I can see why you would be over reacting in this manner.

So yes, it is you misreading it. Pretty sure each hardpoint you bring gives the 3% to all your weapons. As to "just bring less energy hardpoints," you really can't. Even just a reasonable 4 er-medium lasers you're taking what equates to a 24% nerf to them. And that's assuming you can avoid any other laser hardpoints on the rest of your mech. My issue isn't with the large nerf to laser vomit, it's how said nerf translates to a nerf to almost every other build as well. Pretty much every build wants to bring backup lasers, and even those are taking a massive hit. You wanna fix clan laser vomit? ghost heat max at 4 lasers. Problem solved.

[Steve Pryde]

6S BoSS, on 18 May 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

Did you never play MWO dear PGI?

Sometimes I see one of PGI playing MWO, most of the time in the enemy team und most of the time they are playing really badly. I think that's it.

[IraqiWalker]

xLUPOx, on 19 May 2015 - 12:24 AM, said:

when Clan Mechs appeared for the first time, with the first clan wave, all said that those mechs were OP... so PGI started to nerf...
after the wave two, PGI quirked some IS mechs (rly bad distributed quirks: Awesome is a PPC god...and the Higlanders/Atlases/Victors are quite useless in this last meta-game, and are taking rust in the mechbays).
So what's the situation?
PGI continue to nerf and nerf and nerf Clans since the first wave (WHY ?!?!?)... in the CW is more simplier fight in a IS mech than in a Clan one.
And this is shown by the lost territories by the Clanners.

IMHO
PGI after the first nerf, on the CLAN WAVE ONE, should have think only to quirk in a better way IS mechs, and leave the Clans free from other nerf.
Don't forget that, by Battletech lore, Clan Mechs should have to be a little bit "stronger" than the IS counterpart, but this was balanced by different numbers of mechs for lances:
IS team --- 3 lances of 4 mechs
VS.
Clan team --- 2 lances of 5 mechs

You know. I was going to just watch, and enjoy the hilarity of another IL Mechwarrior thread, but I feel I should respond to this post.


1- It's called stars, not lances, for clans
2- OP in lore is more BS than anything else in this game. This is a multiplayer game where we can't use BV. So you can't drop 10 timberwolves against 50 Urbies.

3- The clans are losing territory due to many reasons, least of which is the tech difference.

In fact, the number one reason seems to be that there are probably 30 clan players online, on their busiest day.

4- For the last time: Until we get un-even teams, no one should EVER say something as silly as "but clans were more OP in lore".

Edited by IraqiWalker, 19 May 2015 - 03:29 AM.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

nerf Jag DD 3x UAC5 ? wooot ? and what about DW 6x UAC5 ? thats regular, right ? ....

[xLUPOx]

IraqiWalker, on 19 May 2015 - 03:28 AM, said:

IraqiWalker, on 19 May 2015 - 03:28 AM, said:

You know. I was going to just watch, and enjoy the hilarity of another IL Mechwarrior thread, but I feel I should respond to this post.


1- It's called stars, not lances, for clans
2- OP in lore is more BS than anything else in this game. This is a multiplayer game where we can't use BV. So you can't drop 10 timberwolves against 50 Urbies.

3- The clans are losing territory due to many reasons, least of which is the tech difference.

In fact, the number one reason seems to be that there are probably 30 clan players online, on their busiest day.

4- For the last time: Until we get un-even teams, no one should EVER say something as silly as "but clans were more OP in lore".

"1- It's called stars, not lances, for clans"
I know that are called stars, i was only explaining in a simpliest way... don't be boring...
2- I know that MWO can't consider the battle values, but they can do a better balancing of values for sure... in MW 3 or MW 4 all it was better balanced... (not only mechs but game systems, maps, weapons, armors, in mw4 the hardpoints system was fantastic...)

3- Clans are losing territory because, clan players are few... ok yes...
but many of these players are really good players, and they honestly consider the difference between IS and Clans in CW (not in pug, in that case the situation is different, different movements and distances)

4- Take a breath and read again what I wrote... I said:

Don't forget that, by Battletech lore, Clan Mechs should have to be a little bit "stronger" than the IS counterpart, but this was balanced by different numbers of mechs for lances:
IS team —- 3 lances of 4 mechs
VS.
Clan team —- 2 lances of 5 mechs (YES STARS)

...so we say the same thing.

OF COURSE IN 12 VS 12 CANNOT TAKE IN CONSIDERATION THIS, BUT ANYWAY OTHER NERF ARE NOT NEEDED ON CLANS... this is my idea.

Edited by xLUPOx, 19 May 2015 - 04:26 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

xLUPOx, on 19 May 2015 - 04:16 AM, said:

2- I know that MWO can't consider the battle values, but they can do a better balancement of values for sure... in MW 3 or MW 4 all it was better balanced... (not only mechs but game systems, maps, wapons, armors, in mw4 the hardpoints sistem was fantastic...)

See, this is where you start to lose me. Pretty much most veterans of BT, and MW can tell you that MW4 multiplayer was at best, bad. Mech construction was terrible, and mix tech was the worst possible choice for them to go with.

The hardpoint system was anything BUT good in MW4. Pretty much every single match was IS mechs with Clan weapons.

[xLUPOx]

IraqiWalker, on 19 May 2015 - 04:19 AM, said:

See, this is where you start to lose me. Pretty much most veterans of BT, and MW can tell you that MW4 multiplayer was at best, bad. Mech construction was terrible, and mix tech was the worst possible choice for them to go with.

The hardpoint system was anything BUT good in MW4. Pretty much every single match was IS mechs with Clan weapons.

Mix tech was necessary for the IS to reach Clan levels...
and in the "story" of the game, mix tech is a natural evolution for the IS variants.
For the hardpoints...no I'm in disagree... exactly because this is not the lore battletech game with battle values...
NOW on an Atlas D-DC you can put or 2 ppc or 2 small lasers... why not consider the capability of space like the 4th chapter?

Only one energy hardpoint on the arm? the largest weapon is the ppc? Perfect, you can create a rule, maximum 1 ppc or a number of smallest weapons that can reach the same space.
I can put one ppc or a number of medium lasers, small lasers or (for ex.) a large and a medium, according the same space occupied.
You will say: ok but then M.W.O. won't need of standard variants but will only provide for one single chassis customizable. What's the problem?

You think that's not a properly way to play?

OK, WELL I CAN ACCEPT THIS, then, restart from the begin, remove EVERY nerf from the clans and give only well calibrated quirks on the IS, at every IS.

Atlases and Higlanders, for example, have really useless qiurks like as you easily see... but PGI intend to force us to play and setting mechs in the original lore customs, but is no sense, otherwise PGI should give us "uncustomizable" chassis (like MWLivingLegends) and end the problems.

Edited by xLUPOx, 19 May 2015 - 05:09 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

xLUPOx, on 19 May 2015 - 05:05 AM, said:

Mix tech was necessary for the IS to reach Clan levels...
and in the "story" of the game, mix tech is a natural evolution for the IS variants.

Because clans were OP. Same case here. Add to it that this is a 12 v 12 game. No uneven teams, and you can see why this isn't very different. The super OP weapons in MW4 were the lasers, because they were crazy PP FLD, and here it's the ballistics. Only difference is that we don't have the mix tech silliness, which reduced all matches to just IS mech with clan lasers.

xLUPOx, on 19 May 2015 - 05:05 AM, said:

For the hardpoints...no I'm in disagree... exactly because this is not the lore battletech game with battle values...
NOW on an Atlas D-DC you can put or 2 ppc or 2 small lasers... why not consider the capability of space like the 4th chapter?

Only one energy hardpoint on the arm? the largest weapon is the ppc? Perfect, you can create a rule, maximum 1 ppc or a number of smallest weapons that can reach the same space.
I can put one ppc or a number of medium lasers, small lasers or (for ex.) a large and a medium, according the same space occupied.

Size capped hardpoints were discussed, and are genuinely considered a bad idea. Size restricted hardpoints make it very difficult for people to run the builds they want. The quirk system is working better, since I can choose not to play to my mech's quirks, and I will be fine, I won't get penalized, while if I do play to my mech's quirks, I get an extra buff. (For the record, most of my mechs don't follow their quirks).

The quirks system still allows us to have the level of customization we want, without restricting us to some arbitrary non-sensical system. I can either run my quirk build, or my not quirk build, and both options work just fine. While the sized hardpoint system means I can't do that.

xLUPOx, on 19 May 2015 - 05:05 AM, said:

You will say: ok but then M.W.O. won't need of standard variants but will only provide for one single chassis customizable. What's the problem?

You think that's not a properly way to play?

I would like you to explain this part again please. I did not understand it well, and don't want to operate on assumptions.

xLUPOx, on 19 May 2015 - 05:05 AM, said:

OK, WELL I CAN ACCEPT THIS, then, restart from the begin, remove EVERY nerf from the clans and give only well calibrated quirks on the IS, at every IS.

You don't get it, do you? The nerfs weren't there just to bring the two tech levels closer to one another. They are there also to increase Time To Kill (TTK). We remove the nerfs, and buff everything, and do you know what happens? EVERYONE complains about the fact that they die in 2 seconds.

xLUPOx, on 19 May 2015 - 05:05 AM, said:

Atlases and Higlanders, for example, have really useless qiurks like as you easily see... but PGI intend to force us to play and setting mechs in the original lore customs, but is no sense, otherwise PGI should give us "uncustomizable" chassis (like MWLivingLegends) and end the problems.

You can run the quirk builds, or not. You're not getting penalized, or hurt if you don't run the quirk build.

[xLUPOx]

IraqiWalker, on 19 May 2015 - 05:19 AM, said:

If you wanna increase the TTK, you have to reconfigure the weapons..
In the first MechCommander a ppc had 7.5 seconds of cooldown... and the lrm 5 had over 10 seconds...
Ok it was an Isometric Strategy game...
but if PGI had considered that values, and that damage/cooldown ratio... probably the quality of the battle in MWO would been better.


For the hardpoints discussion (max. 1 ppc for arm or a number of smallest energy wpns that can reach the same space), I was referring at the atlas D-DC case... it was an example to say that NOW you cannot really feel free to run the built that you want. This is my point of view.

The quirks ok, are for averything that you want, but let be serious, how many Higlanders, Victors or Atlases you see in the match?
I sometimes use mine atlases and I can say that in pug can do some nice match, but not like 1 years ago...this because some IS mech like Awesome and Stalker 4N received super quirks (and for the stalker 4N PGI saw that was a little bit much) and others no.

So my opinion is always the same, why nerf the clan mechs? Give some other nice quirk on the IS that are not used anymore. So you (PGI) give the possibility to feel free to choose every mech and not give the sensation that there's a "meta mech" to use in that moment.

...again...quirks are for the TTK? Isn't the best way to ensure it, work on the weapons cooldown...

Hope I explained myself well.

[Mosadoff]

Steve Pryde, on 19 May 2015 - 03:26 AM, said:

Sometimes I see one of PGI playing MWO, most of the time in the enemy team und most of the time they are playing really badly. I think that's it.

Also, they play IS mechs more often...

IraqiWalker, on 19 May 2015 - 05:19 AM, said:

You can run the quirk builds, or not. You're not getting penalized, or hurt if you don't run the quirk build.

Damn true. This unique approach for timbers and crow is just annoying.

Edited by Mosadoff, 19 May 2015 - 06:34 AM.

[Robin Wolf]

IraqiWalker for president!