Wasn't around for their launch so maybe someone has an answer on this.
It just seems kind of silly that you have 3-4 variants of these mechs and the only meaningful difference between them is jump jets, structure points and a few mild quirks.
Everything moves the same speed and other than the CT you can make any one of them the same as the rest - just completely removes the uniqueness that you get with the IS mechs.
I also don't understand the quirking process on these mechs, why wouldn't they be doing a partial system of the 8 components that ranged from negative to decently positive boosts for having a full set with the CT as the core driving component?
Between that and even slightly different engines the mechs would feel like each one was its own machine and not just an ever so slightly different version of the others.
0
Why Don't Clan Mechs Have Different Sized Engines?
Started by sycocys, May 18 2015 05:49 AM
6 replies to this topic
#2
-
-
- Overlord
- 226 posts
Member
Posted 18 May 2015 - 05:56 AM
It comes from the BT board game/lore.
Omnimechs were designed to be easily modular and interchangeable - all you had to do was change out omni pods, and you had a different weapons layout while still using the exact same mech.
As opposed to Battlemechs, which have static loadouts, and would usually need to be carted to a factory to do the kind of modifications we do with a single click in this game.
The downside of Omnimechs was their lack of basic customization. You couldn't edit the basic Omni itself (the armor type, frame type, engine, or any hard slotted equipment). For many Omnimechs, things like Jump Jets were an easy addition, whereas some have it hardwired to all of the variants due to the fact that it was built into the base model.
For example -
Think of a basic Timberwolf the same across the board - they all have the same frame, engine, components.
But where the weapons go, are giant holes. The different variants are just different pre-built pods placed into those holes.
Omnimechs were designed to be easily modular and interchangeable - all you had to do was change out omni pods, and you had a different weapons layout while still using the exact same mech.
As opposed to Battlemechs, which have static loadouts, and would usually need to be carted to a factory to do the kind of modifications we do with a single click in this game.
The downside of Omnimechs was their lack of basic customization. You couldn't edit the basic Omni itself (the armor type, frame type, engine, or any hard slotted equipment). For many Omnimechs, things like Jump Jets were an easy addition, whereas some have it hardwired to all of the variants due to the fact that it was built into the base model.
For example -
Think of a basic Timberwolf the same across the board - they all have the same frame, engine, components.
But where the weapons go, are giant holes. The different variants are just different pre-built pods placed into those holes.
Edited by Zeriniel, 18 May 2015 - 05:58 AM.
#3
-
-
- The Ominous
- 6,273 posts
Member
Posted 18 May 2015 - 05:57 AM
They quirk each component because of the omnipod system.
Put 10% energy cooldown on the CT and that means the person will use a lot of energy omnipods to max out the use of that 10%. This could lead to some very broken mechs and with all the whining I think they want to try and keep that to a minimum.
Why they all have the same engine though, is probably because of lore.
Omnimechs are basically a skeleton you attach pods too, allowing them to change out the function of a mech entirely on the battlefield.
Enemy sends waves of tanks? slap on some ballistic and energy omnipods
Enemy sending waves of choppers? slap some missile omnipods on.
allows them to be very adaptable.
but once again,
Put a Smaller engine in the Timberwolf A CT
People will just use that one because its has more room for weapons and ammo.
the omnipod system could lead to some very broken builds.
Put 10% energy cooldown on the CT and that means the person will use a lot of energy omnipods to max out the use of that 10%. This could lead to some very broken mechs and with all the whining I think they want to try and keep that to a minimum.
Why they all have the same engine though, is probably because of lore.
Omnimechs are basically a skeleton you attach pods too, allowing them to change out the function of a mech entirely on the battlefield.
Enemy sends waves of tanks? slap on some ballistic and energy omnipods
Enemy sending waves of choppers? slap some missile omnipods on.
allows them to be very adaptable.
but once again,
Put a Smaller engine in the Timberwolf A CT
People will just use that one because its has more room for weapons and ammo.
the omnipod system could lead to some very broken builds.
#4
Posted 18 May 2015 - 06:08 AM
Clan Mechs Can have different sized engines
Clan OmniMechs cannot
Once we have them Inner sphere Omnis will not have changeable engines either.
Clan OmniMechs cannot
Once we have them Inner sphere Omnis will not have changeable engines either.
Edited by Joseph Mallan, 18 May 2015 - 06:08 AM.
#5
-
-
- 1,942 posts
Member
- LocationKurpfalz, Germany
Posted 18 May 2015 - 06:52 AM
Zeriniel, on 18 May 2015 - 05:56 AM, said:
It comes from the BT board game/lore.
Omnimechs were designed to be easily modular and interchangeable - all you had to do was change out omni pods, and you had a different weapons layout while still using the exact same mech.
As opposed to Battlemechs, which have static loadouts, and would usually need to be carted to a factory to do the kind of modifications we do with a single click in this game.
The downside of Omnimechs was their lack of basic customization. You couldn't edit the basic Omni itself (the armor type, frame type, engine, or any hard slotted equipment). For many Omnimechs, things like Jump Jets were an easy addition, whereas some have it hardwired to all of the variants due to the fact that it was built into the base model.
For example -
Think of a basic Timberwolf the same across the board - they all have the same frame, engine, components.
But where the weapons go, are giant holes. The different variants are just different pre-built pods placed into those holes.
Omnimechs were designed to be easily modular and interchangeable - all you had to do was change out omni pods, and you had a different weapons layout while still using the exact same mech.
As opposed to Battlemechs, which have static loadouts, and would usually need to be carted to a factory to do the kind of modifications we do with a single click in this game.
The downside of Omnimechs was their lack of basic customization. You couldn't edit the basic Omni itself (the armor type, frame type, engine, or any hard slotted equipment). For many Omnimechs, things like Jump Jets were an easy addition, whereas some have it hardwired to all of the variants due to the fact that it was built into the base model.
For example -
Think of a basic Timberwolf the same across the board - they all have the same frame, engine, components.
But where the weapons go, are giant holes. The different variants are just different pre-built pods placed into those holes.
In truth, in BT Omnimechs and Battlemechs don't differ in that regard. The rules (which PGI took out of context) say that you can't modify engine, structure etc. on an Omnimech without removing its capabilities as an Omnimech. So you could theoretically swap out the engine, but then the load-out would be locked and you couldn't change omni-pods any longer.
What PGI doesn't tell you: You also can't swap those items on a Battlemech. At least not without a huge amount of work and money, basically making another variant of said mech. That means a Catapult-C1 with a 240 Engine wouldn't be a C1 any longer, it would be a CX or whatever.
So if you as an IS-pilot would have the resources at hand to modify your mech the way it is possible in MWO, it would perfectly make sense to let Clanners modify their Omnis too, creating new Chassis in the process, exactly like the IS does. A Summoner with a new engine would be a Summoner II or something like that. A new Omnimech, just like the IS is creating new Battlemechs all the time in the mechlab.
#6
-
-
- Moderate Giver
- 7,697 posts
Member
Posted 18 May 2015 - 07:03 AM
Just seems like its making a boring game decisions for the sake of lore with the engine sizes, it would be the easiest way to make the variants actually feel unique from each other. They are modding the cts to fit JJ and varying armor already, it kind of doesn't make sense that they wouldn't have some models that don't have a slightly bigger or smaller engine
Even if it was bigger engine = less/no JJ or armor and the opposite for the slightly smaller engine to equal out the weights, maybe one model with a fairly larger engine, but extra crit slots to be hit so its easier to cripple and less space for fitting other components (or hard pointed dhs/armor/structure to offset it might be simpler to implement).
--
For the building quirks around the CT/omnipod system it would to me make more sense to have it be 8 stages of buffs depending on how many of the matching parts you have on - with some/most of them starting in the negative for 1/8. I would suggest the only static ones to be the additional structure and movement range since it would make more sense that these would be built directly into the mechanical parts.
And they wouldn't have to top out at large numbers +/- either like many of the IS quirks do, just something that makes them distinct but still leaves room for the mechs to be re-podded without huge net losses. There are just some things like this that would add more depth and flair to the game to just break from lore for the purpose of making things more interesting and probably easier to balance by using smaller increments.
Just an example out of my head no variant/mech in particular -
Head
CT : +2% Energy Dur, +1% Energy Heat, +2% Pulse Laser range
RT :+2% Energy Dur, +1% Energy Heat, +2% Pulse Laser range
LT :+2% Energy Dur, +1% Energy Heat, +2% Pulse Laser range
RR :+2% Energy Dur, +1% Energy Heat, +2% Pulse Laser range
LR :+2% Energy Dur, +1% Energy Heat, +2% Pulse Laser range
RL :+2% Energy Dur, +1% Energy Heat, +2% Pulse Laser range
LL :+2% Energy Dur, +1% Energy Heat, +2% Pulse Laser range
Totals - +16% Duration, +8% Heat, +16% Pulse range
set bonuses
1/8 = 0 (you get whats on the pod)
2/8 = -2% duration, -1% pulse cd
3/8 = -3% duration, -1% energy heat, -1% pulse cd
4/8 = -5% duration, -2% energy heat, -2% pulse cd, +1% JJ duration,
5/8 = -6% duration, -3% energy heat, -3% pulse cd, +1% JJ duration, +1% pulse range
6/8 = -8% duration, -5% energy heat, -5% pulse cd, +2% JJ duration, +2% pulse range
7/8 = -10% duration, -7% energy heat, -7% pulse cd, +4% JJ duration, +4% pulse range
8/8 = -14% duration, -10% energy heat, -10% pulse cd, +10% JJ duration, +10% pulse range, +5% top speed
Totals with bonuses:
+2% duration, -2% heat, +26% pulse range, -10% pulse cd, +10% JJ duration, +5% top speed
(note - the numbers are purely fictional and not a representative of what you'd actually do for any particular mech)
Something along these lines, still have an overall reduction in duration with a full set, but by using a full set you gain some nice bonuses that aren't too over quirked but are stuck with the hard points. Would still allow pod swapping without taking too huge of a hit depending on what weapons systems you are using and all. I'm sure its not even out there to include things like top speed into bonuses or reducing pinpoint as most of the skills from the tree are on some quirks already.
It also makes sense that a matching line of parts would function better together because mechanically they are matched for hydraulic pressure, twist rates/limits, electrical limits/requirements and on the software end their coding to the control computers would be running nearly identical routines making that end run more efficiently.
And I know the system I suggested seems like its more complicated, and just might be in the process of coding it up - but it's also far easier to tune and balance in smaller increments because the parts are more likely to be performing together than randomly matched up with players just setting up high alpha strikes. It ends up being more similar to the IS hard point system where you can quirk the entire system together, but still leaving the door open for the omnipod customization for people that want to fine tune their load outs for themselves without completely wrecking different variations.
--
Also, I'm not asking for the engines to be swappable, perfectly fine that they are hard set to the CT/variant, just that it's pretty blah when every variant runs the exact same thing. Makes none of them feel unique or specialized - which an army would do to if it was making variant models, even in an omnipod system the "cores" would be more specialized for the gear and roles they generally operate.
Even if it was bigger engine = less/no JJ or armor and the opposite for the slightly smaller engine to equal out the weights, maybe one model with a fairly larger engine, but extra crit slots to be hit so its easier to cripple and less space for fitting other components (or hard pointed dhs/armor/structure to offset it might be simpler to implement).
--
For the building quirks around the CT/omnipod system it would to me make more sense to have it be 8 stages of buffs depending on how many of the matching parts you have on - with some/most of them starting in the negative for 1/8. I would suggest the only static ones to be the additional structure and movement range since it would make more sense that these would be built directly into the mechanical parts.
And they wouldn't have to top out at large numbers +/- either like many of the IS quirks do, just something that makes them distinct but still leaves room for the mechs to be re-podded without huge net losses. There are just some things like this that would add more depth and flair to the game to just break from lore for the purpose of making things more interesting and probably easier to balance by using smaller increments.
Just an example out of my head no variant/mech in particular -
Head
CT : +2% Energy Dur, +1% Energy Heat, +2% Pulse Laser range
RT :+2% Energy Dur, +1% Energy Heat, +2% Pulse Laser range
LT :+2% Energy Dur, +1% Energy Heat, +2% Pulse Laser range
RR :+2% Energy Dur, +1% Energy Heat, +2% Pulse Laser range
LR :+2% Energy Dur, +1% Energy Heat, +2% Pulse Laser range
RL :+2% Energy Dur, +1% Energy Heat, +2% Pulse Laser range
LL :+2% Energy Dur, +1% Energy Heat, +2% Pulse Laser range
Totals - +16% Duration, +8% Heat, +16% Pulse range
set bonuses
1/8 = 0 (you get whats on the pod)
2/8 = -2% duration, -1% pulse cd
3/8 = -3% duration, -1% energy heat, -1% pulse cd
4/8 = -5% duration, -2% energy heat, -2% pulse cd, +1% JJ duration,
5/8 = -6% duration, -3% energy heat, -3% pulse cd, +1% JJ duration, +1% pulse range
6/8 = -8% duration, -5% energy heat, -5% pulse cd, +2% JJ duration, +2% pulse range
7/8 = -10% duration, -7% energy heat, -7% pulse cd, +4% JJ duration, +4% pulse range
8/8 = -14% duration, -10% energy heat, -10% pulse cd, +10% JJ duration, +10% pulse range, +5% top speed
Totals with bonuses:
+2% duration, -2% heat, +26% pulse range, -10% pulse cd, +10% JJ duration, +5% top speed
(note - the numbers are purely fictional and not a representative of what you'd actually do for any particular mech)
Something along these lines, still have an overall reduction in duration with a full set, but by using a full set you gain some nice bonuses that aren't too over quirked but are stuck with the hard points. Would still allow pod swapping without taking too huge of a hit depending on what weapons systems you are using and all. I'm sure its not even out there to include things like top speed into bonuses or reducing pinpoint as most of the skills from the tree are on some quirks already.
It also makes sense that a matching line of parts would function better together because mechanically they are matched for hydraulic pressure, twist rates/limits, electrical limits/requirements and on the software end their coding to the control computers would be running nearly identical routines making that end run more efficiently.
And I know the system I suggested seems like its more complicated, and just might be in the process of coding it up - but it's also far easier to tune and balance in smaller increments because the parts are more likely to be performing together than randomly matched up with players just setting up high alpha strikes. It ends up being more similar to the IS hard point system where you can quirk the entire system together, but still leaving the door open for the omnipod customization for people that want to fine tune their load outs for themselves without completely wrecking different variations.
--
Also, I'm not asking for the engines to be swappable, perfectly fine that they are hard set to the CT/variant, just that it's pretty blah when every variant runs the exact same thing. Makes none of them feel unique or specialized - which an army would do to if it was making variant models, even in an omnipod system the "cores" would be more specialized for the gear and roles they generally operate.
Edited by sycocys, 18 May 2015 - 07:15 AM.
#7
-
-
- Overlord
- 226 posts
Member
Posted 18 May 2015 - 07:08 AM
RedDragon, on 18 May 2015 - 06:52 AM, said:
In truth, in BT Omnimechs and Battlemechs don't differ in that regard. The rules (which PGI took out of context) say that you can't modify engine, structure etc. on an Omnimech without removing its capabilities as an Omnimech. So you could theoretically swap out the engine, but then the load-out would be locked and you couldn't change omni-pods any longer.
What PGI doesn't tell you: You also can't swap those items on a Battlemech. At least not without a huge amount of work and money, basically making another variant of said mech. That means a Catapult-C1 with a 240 Engine wouldn't be a C1 any longer, it would be a CX or whatever.
So if you as an IS-pilot would have the resources at hand to modify your mech the way it is possible in MWO, it would perfectly make sense to let Clanners modify their Omnis too, creating new Chassis in the process, exactly like the IS does. A Summoner with a new engine would be a Summoner II or something like that. A new Omnimech, just like the IS is creating new Battlemechs all the time in the mechlab.
What PGI doesn't tell you: You also can't swap those items on a Battlemech. At least not without a huge amount of work and money, basically making another variant of said mech. That means a Catapult-C1 with a 240 Engine wouldn't be a C1 any longer, it would be a CX or whatever.
So if you as an IS-pilot would have the resources at hand to modify your mech the way it is possible in MWO, it would perfectly make sense to let Clanners modify their Omnis too, creating new Chassis in the process, exactly like the IS does. A Summoner with a new engine would be a Summoner II or something like that. A new Omnimech, just like the IS is creating new Battlemechs all the time in the mechlab.
You're right - I was trying to keep it somewhat simplistic though
1 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users
