36 replies to this topic

[MeiSooHaityu]

I think the better course would be a mobility nerf to the Timber Wolf, but the energy nerf to the Storm Crow seems acceptable.

The Timber Wolf could have used nerfs to make it so a fully skilled up Timber Wolf (with 2x basics) is as mobile as a current no skilled Timber Wolf. The only thing I might not touch is speed tweak just because it is a bigger engine. Still, things like acceleration, hard brake, anchor turn, and all the torso and arm movement skills would be affected. I'd try that first for reigning in the TW. When it comes to a 75ton platform I expect some good firepower, but not that wickedly good mobility (XL375 or not).

The Storm Crow seems more like a weapon nerf sort of platform, so I am OK with that.

The only thing is, the nerfs might be too strong once everything stacks. It is FAR from dead like some whiners say, but it might be a bit too heavy handed regardless. That's why a ballistic buff would have been nice to go with the nerfs.

Still, we will have to see what this does.

[Alistair Winter]

FupDup, on 18 May 2015 - 05:01 PM, said:

I've never really understood why people fixate so much on the TBR's agility...

Because changing the core stats has proven more reliable and with fewer unforseen consequences than the Quirkening.

PGI won't change hitboxes, won't change geometry, won't change size, won't change module slots and won't change hardpoint numbers for neither IS nor Clan mechs. So we're left with mobility / agility stats and engine cap for IS mechs... or quirks. (EDIT: Actually, they've stopped using engine cap as a balancing tool too)

Pick your poison, basically. If you go with agility, players will say it's no fun to play a mech that handles like an icecream truck. If you go with weapon quirks, players will say it's no fun shooting lasers that last... well, 0.2 seconds longer than usual.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 19 May 2015 - 02:55 AM.

[Knyx]

TW and SCR were never OP. SCR just needed a hitbox fix if anything.

Just another pass of PGI only listening to forum minority whine rather then dissecting metrics like all the other sane developers of games.

Math is clear, all of IS weapons except a couple are completely superior to clan. None of the weapon based quirks IS received, were needed. I could understand if clans actually had superior weapons, and IS got quirks to kind of even it out, but only thing clan weapons have is a little bit of a range advantage which being an advantage or not is 100% subjective because all of MWO maps are packed with cover, however damage@burn time, ghost heat, and heat are NOT subjective.

I suggest voting with your wallets, if this is going to make you quit, chargeback any Timber and SCR purchased

Edited by Knyx, 19 May 2015 - 03:20 AM.

[Nick86]

Lord Scarlett Johan is right..

Lord Scarlett Johan is right..

[Bishop Steiner]

funny...I've been advocating mobility nerfs on these two since last June....and being vilified and crucified for it.

Now half the people who blasted me for saying so, are crying for mobility nerfs.......

*SMH*

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 May 2015 - 07:21 AM, said:

funny...I've been advocating mobility nerfs on these two since last June....and being vilified and crucified for it.

Now half the people who blasted me for saying so, are crying for mobility nerfs.......

*SMH*

Your former Timberwolf overlords disagree.

Sincerely,

PGI Telemetry

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 May 2015 - 07:21 AM, said:

funny...I've been advocating mobility nerfs on these two since last June....and being vilified and crucified for it.

Now half the people who blasted me for saying so, are crying for mobility nerfs.......

*SMH*

I'm just more of a fan of taking multiple aspects of a mech and knocking them down a notch (an actual notch, not a PGI notch).

Like half the duration/cooldown quirk
Maybe a missile cooldown penalty for missile hardpoints
~5% nerfs to agility factors (twist, turn, accel)

Stuff like that. As opposed to giganerfing ONE aspect of a mech.

The same applies to buffing IS mechs, and I have actually noticed this a bit more with newer quirk sets, that there are more quirks but they are spread thinner.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 May 2015 - 07:21 AM, said:

funny...I've been advocating mobility nerfs on these two since last June....and being vilified and crucified for it.

Now half the people who blasted me for saying so, are crying for mobility nerfs.......

*SMH*

I've been right there with you.

I guess Russ' "telemetry" says players stats with the Twolf and Scrow are higher than the rest.

[ztac]

So why do people not forget about everything other than tow to toe damage for a starting point of balance? Then work away from that by factoring in everything else?

The fact that clans are stuck with whether they have endo skeleton or ferrous armour , and the engine size makes them more easily comparable to other mechs once these have been added.

The fact is that to effectively do a balance run you would have to take a case by case, weight by weight analysis , at the mount people sometimes make comparisons that simply should not be made.PGI are the worse offenders for this! It is due to their inability to effectively balance the game from day one and continue to do so for since beta all that time ago!

[Lexx]

Don't worry, this is just the first round.

When everyone changes builds, and they see the TBR and SCR are still OP, they will add in some torso twist and other mobility nerfs.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Lexx, on 19 May 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

Don't worry, this is just the first round.

When everyone changes builds, and they see the TBR and SCR are still OP, they will add in some torso twist and other mobility nerfs.

...which would probably be relatively acceptable if they also removed the energy weapon hits both platforms are taking. And if the TBR twist/mobility nerfs were very small and the SCR ones were no more than 10% to begin with.









....I can hope.

[xe N on]

Knyx, on 19 May 2015 - 03:19 AM, said:

TW and SCR were never OP. SCR just needed a hitbox fix if anything.

Yeah. I would say I'm a 70% medium pilot having mastered 4 SHDs, 4 GRFs, mastered 1 CDA and got one (free) CN9 through all basics. As well mastered 3 SCRs.

I can clearly say to you: There is no need to take my SHDs or GRFs out. Even after the nerf. My SCR does it simply better. Do you want know what it does better? Just everything.

If it would have jump jets this thing would be like the god mode of all 55 ton mediums.

Edited by xe N on, 19 May 2015 - 10:01 AM.

[1453 R]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 May 2015 - 07:21 AM, said:

funny...I've been advocating mobility nerfs on these two since last June....and being vilified and crucified for it.

Now half the people who blasted me for saying so, are crying for mobility nerfs.......

*SMH*

Okay, I recall trying to start a conversation with you, like, three times looking for alternatives. No crucifixion involved. No, I did not want mobility nerfs for the Timber Wolf because it spends a massive amount of tonnage on a 375XL and I feel it should derive some benefit from that, but clearly something has to give, and it's not going to be tertiary things like heat management. If they have to compromise something of the Timber Wolf's core ability, yes, I would prefer some moderate-handed agility penalties over this ridiculous set of energy quirks that ISN'T GOING TO SOLVE ANY-GODDAMN-THING.

That said, I said it to El Bandito and I'll say it to you - I'll take 18% penalties to beam duration and cooldown with a smile on my face and a shake of the hand before I accept the 20+% everything penalties the Spheroid side wants to saddle the TBR with. 20+% turnspeed/twistspeed/accel/decel/footspeed is absolutely, positively, in all ways and by all means flat f***ing unacceptable. It was completely unacceptable when they did half of that to the Victor, and the Victor was more dominant in its heyday than the Timber Wolf is now.

Why people feel the need to butcher the Timber Wolf rather than just try and fix the Timber Wolf is beyond me.

[Bishop Steiner]

1453 R, on 19 May 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

Okay, I recall trying to start a conversation with you, like, three times looking for alternatives. No crucifixion involved. No, I did not want mobility nerfs for the Timber Wolf because it spends a massive amount of tonnage on a 375XL and I feel it should derive some benefit from that, but clearly something has to give, and it's not going to be tertiary things like heat management. If they have to compromise something of the Timber Wolf's core ability, yes, I would prefer some moderate-handed agility penalties over this ridiculous set of energy quirks that ISN'T GOING TO SOLVE ANY-GODDAMN-THING.

That said, I said it to El Bandito and I'll say it to you - I'll take 18% penalties to beam duration and cooldown with a smile on my face and a shake of the hand before I accept the 20+% everything penalties the Spheroid side wants to saddle the TBR with. 20+% turnspeed/twistspeed/accel/decel/footspeed is absolutely, positively, in all ways and by all means flat f***ing unacceptable. It was completely unacceptable when they did half of that to the Victor, and the Victor was more dominant in its heyday than the Timber Wolf is now.

Why people feel the need to butcher the Timber Wolf rather than just try and fix the Timber Wolf is beyond me.

odd. I seem to recall advocating for 5% reduction to top speed, twist and turn. And for Omni JJs to be less efficient than hardwired ones. Then to see where it stood, and if it might need more or even less.

But every time I even remotely mentioned it, the Victor and Paul's shotgun butchery to everything BUT the actual problem were thrown at me as why we can never ever let them touch the TBRs agility. In fact, it was the Clanners, like Gyrok who constantly brought up 20+%, not me and the other filthy spheroids. Seems like you guys were feeding your own fear and trying to make it come out of our mouths.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 May 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

odd. I seem to recall advocating for 5% reduction to top speed, twist and turn. And for Omni JJs to be less efficient than hardwired ones. Then to see where it stood, and if it might need more or even less.

But every time I even remotely mentioned it, the Victor and Paul's shotgun butchery to everything BUT the actual problem were thrown at me as why we can never ever let them touch the TBRs agility. In fact, it was the Clanners, like Gyrok who constantly brought up 20+%, not me and the other filthy spheroids. Seems like you guys were feeding your own fear and trying to make it come out of our mouths.

Fearmongering is great for fueling fires that shouldn't have been started in the first place (other than the post-witch burning era )

I'm sure there are more torches to burn.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 May 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

But every time I even remotely mentioned it, the Victor and Paul's shotgun butchery to everything BUT the actual problem were thrown at me as why we can never ever let them touch the TBRs agility.

What bothers me is that this, even if it's not actually a legitimate concern, it at least still gives the appearance of a legitimate concern.

That is to say, concerns like that (if PGI is encouraged to alter the mobility of 'mech X they will only make huge changes) seem relatively reasonable given the history of the game. That's what really worries me. PGI seems to have gone back and forth on how big an initial change of values for the sake of balance/imbalance should be over time. That fluctuation is not healthy, and shouldn't be accepted as the state of things, nor should it be the state of things.

[1453 R]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 19 May 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

What bothers me is that this, even if it's not actually a legitimate concern, it at least still gives the appearance of a legitimate concern.

That is to say, concerns like that (if PGI is encouraged to alter the mobility of 'mech X they will only make huge changes) seem relatively reasonable given the history of the game. That's what really worries me. PGI seems to have gone back and forth on how big an initial change of values for the sake of balance/imbalance should be over time. That fluctuation is not healthy, and shouldn't be accepted as the state of things, nor should it be the state of things.

Bang. Thanks, Crobat.

Bishop, you know as well as I do that when you were proposing mobility hits, there was no such thing as a 5% tweak from Piranha. 20% was their start point and it only went up from there. Sure, they tried tiny, 'rapidly incremental' changes for a few patches with the Clan underperformers lately, but the forumites managed to blow that one by being impatient jackasses so now we're back to Dynamite Fishing - Game Balance Edition.

There was no evidence whatsoever that Piranha was capable of a 5% tweak. Even now, the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of, as you say, 'shotgun butchery'. Yeah, now that things have come down to "we're going to put a couple of 12ga rounds into your 'Mechs", a lot of Clan players are hoping they can at least try and take the wound in the right spot, so we don't have to take any more 12ga rounds later down the line.

If we get to either lose the ability to carry significant numbers of energy weapons, or lose a chunk of agility, yes - let's try the agility first since that's what Spheroids hate about these 'Mechs. Losing all of the agility is not acceptable, and frankly you can leave top speed alone as well. I don't understand the desire to rob the Timber Wolf of every single ounce of benefit it gets from spending so much weight on a 375XL, I never have, and I'm pretty sure I never will. Penalize its twist speeds, knock its turnspeed a little if you have to, but the whole "shave its turn/twist/accel/decel/footspeed" thing?

Why not just switch its engine down to a 325 and lock out the extra weight? That way at least the thing has a visible reason for moving like a legged Stalker.