74 replies to this topic

[Spleenslitta]

Pjwned, on 19 May 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

I think you underestimate how much damage mech B would be dealing in that situation while mech A is trying to "pick their shots carefully" on top of shooting infrequently enough so that they don't overheat. Additionally, that's not even a very good hypothetical situation because mech B could take advantage of their much lower heat generation with AC2 to add more weapons while mech A would need to add more heatsinks instead to have a reasonable level of heat.

I said only 1 weapon for each to keep things simple and i said light mechs. I've been there as i said in earlier posts with my Kit Fox.
A single IS AC2 needs at least 2-3 tons of ammo to last through a longer match. That's 8-9 tons.
1 Clan UAC2 needs at least 2 tons of ammo to last through a match too if you fire carefully.
More like 3-3.5 tons during longer matches. That means about 8-8.5 tons total.

While a light mech with a single ER PPC only needs the heatsinks inside the engine to keep going as long as he relocates after every shot.
Cools down when relocating you see.
Trust me on that if nothing else....i've been using a single ER PPC with backup weapons of course on roughly half my light mech builds since Founders beta.
A light mech that shoots from the same spot is just begging for a dual gauss/ ER PPC/Load o' lasers alpha to the CT.

Pjwned....let's just agree to disagree. It seems you have made up your mind allready and nothing we say will convince you.
In any case it's nearly time for me to head to bed....it's nearing midnight here. Don't want to get my sleeping habits twisted for when my vacation ends.
Work threatens to make me fall asleep as it is.....

Frosty Brand, on 19 May 2015 - 01:23 PM, said:

I see the ac2 more of a paired with lasers type weapon. Fire the beam, and as many shells while the beam fires, then duck back in. The [ER]PPC wouldn't mesh well with it ever because of the low damage per shell, but if you're using, say an ERLL/LPL, you could throw in a (on paper) low heat barrage while the beams fire out. Problem is it heats up almost worse then the lasers it should be supplementing xD

I say remove shake AND explosion effects, refire time at .4 seconds base(5 shells in 2 seconds for 10 damage is probably the max anyone would be face taking before they want cover, heat @ 1/2 current (5 shells in 2 seconds would still be 2.5 heat) with no GH, or IF* GH is needed again, keep it at 5+.
To over board?

That's not going overboard at all. I suggested 0.25 secs cooldown myself.
0.4 secs cooldown is most certainly better than what we have now no matter how i look at it.

Edited by Spleenslitta, 19 May 2015 - 01:32 PM.

[Pjwned]

Spleenslitta, on 19 May 2015 - 01:28 PM, said:

I said only 1 weapon for each to keep things simple and i said light mechs. I've been there as i said in earlier posts with my Kit Fox.
A single IS AC2 needs at least 2-3 tons of ammo to last through a longer match. That's 8-9 tons.
1 Clan UAC2 needs at least 2 tons of ammo to last through a match too if you fire carefully.
More like 3-3.5 tons during longer matches. That means about 8-8.5 tons total.

As it is now it's not really viable to have an AC2 + extra weapons on a light mech due to how hot AC2 runs, but it would be viable if the AC2 didn't run so hot even considering the relatively high tonnage of AC2.

Quote

While a light mech with a single ER PPC only needs the heatsinks inside the engine to keep going as long as he relocates after every shot.
Cools down when relocating you see.
Trust me on that if nothing else....i've been using a single ER PPC with backup weapons of course on roughly half my light mech builds since Founders beta.
A light mech that shoots from the same spot is just begging for a dual gauss/ ER PPC/Load o' lasers alpha to the CT.

1. Its DPS goes down the toilet when you do that, meanwhile the AC2 mech wouldn't need to cool down extensively in order to keep firing and maintain its DPS which is actually useful
2. That's not the same situation we were just talking about; you know, the situation that you proposed and then apparently dodged when I responded to it

Quote

Pjwned....let's just agree to disagree. It seems you have made up your mind allready and nothing we say will convince you.

I find that funny because I could say the same thing to you. If you want to take a cop out and not discuss it further then just say so, don't act like I'm the only one being stubborn.

Edited by Pjwned, 19 May 2015 - 02:00 PM.

[Spleenslitta]

Pjwned, on 19 May 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

I find that funny because I could say the same thing to you. If you want to take a cop out and not discuss it further then just say so, don't act like I'm the only one being stubborn.

Fine but Pjwned..... Try firing a single AC2 in a light for more than 4-5 shots at long range and see where that gets you.
You will find that the damage, tonnage, facetime don't add make sense compared to other weapons.

That long facetime to do a decent amount of damage likely gets you a gauss slug/PPC bolt in return.

[Pjwned]

Spleenslitta, on 19 May 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:

Fine but Pjwned..... Try firing a single AC2 in a light for more than 4-5 shots at long range and see where that gets you.
You will find that the damage, tonnage, facetime don't add make sense compared to other weapons.

That long facetime to do a decent amount of damage likely gets you a gauss slug/PPC bolt in return.

And yet if it didn't run absurdly hot that would even things out a lot more. I'm not ignoring its facetime to deal damage, I'm saying its other disadvantages (i.e heat) need to be lower to compensate for that because the long facetime is just what you get with the weapon.

Edited by Pjwned, 19 May 2015 - 02:09 PM.

[Spleenslitta]

Pjwned, on 19 May 2015 - 02:08 PM, said:

And yet if it didn't run absurdly hot that would even things out a lot more. I'm not ignoring its facetime to deal damage, I'm saying its other disadvantages (i.e heat) need to be lower to compensate for that because the long facetime is just what you get with the weapon.

But lower heat alone won't fix all of it. It needs something more to make up for that long facetime.
Upping the amount of shells per ton helps a little but the weapon itself is still dead in the water so to speak.

So you cut the cooldown to around 1/2 or 1/3 of what it currently is while removing/lessening shaking to prevent it from becoming too powerfull.
But removing the shaking might not be necessary either. I think it was Alistair Winter who mentioned LRM boats making us shake all over the place allready.

Lower heat doesn't help on some maps. Take Frozen City for example.
You could fire AC2's there for a very long time before overheating....indeed can you overheat there with even 2x IS AC2s?

[LordNothing]

i like that the 6 pack ac2 is not terribad (and not op either), at least not on a crab. the reduced ghost heat has really made the ac2 playable in large arrays (of 4-6). on my crab i usually fire in 5 shot bursts for 60 damage, which is about the limit before you start running into heat issues. durring that face time the enemy is getting shaken pretty bad and cannot return. so its effective against single targets at moderate range. its also good at multiple targets at long range (where most of them are too far out to return fire).

mechs with 3 or fewer ballistics would do well to add ac2 quirks (in sort of the same spirit in that any light with fewer than 4 machine gun slots need mg quirks) to make ac2s more formidable in those builds. especially anything with clustered ballistic points. clusters dont make a lot of sense otherwise.

other things you might do to help mechs with fewer ac2s, increase fire rate, decrease heat, and bring back ghost heat on 4+ gun configs (guns should perform as they do now on 6 gun builds, but fewer gun builds would get major buffs as a result). and of course an ac2 cd module would be nice.

[Pjwned]

Spleenslitta, on 19 May 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

But lower heat alone won't fix all of it. It needs something more to make up for that long facetime.
Upping the amount of shells per ton helps a little but the weapon itself is still dead in the water so to speak.

If the heat was reduced enough I don't see how it wouldn't make up for the facetime.

Quote

So you cut the cooldown to around 1/2 or 1/3 of what it currently is while removing/lessening shaking to prevent it from becoming too powerfull.
But removing the shaking might not be necessary either. I think it was Alistair Winter who mentioned LRM boats making us shake all over the place allready.

Still sounds like that could make it too powerful to me, considering we've never seen AC2 in this game that didn't have atrocious heat generation which is (again) also why AC5 was more effective even when AC2 had more DPS.

Quote

Lower heat doesn't help on some maps. Take Frozen City for example.
You could fire AC2's there for a very long time before overheating....indeed can you overheat there with even 2x IS AC2s?

And what about when you land on maps that are even more hot than usual, which are more common than cold maps? I also think you overestimate the effect of cold maps a bit, although that's not to say it doesn't have a noticeable impact on heat generation because it obviously does.

[Spleenslitta]

LordNothing, on 19 May 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

i like that the 6 pack ac2 is not terribad (and not op either), at least not on a crab. the reduced ghost heat has really made the ac2 playable in large arrays (of 4-6). on my crab i usually fire in 5 shot bursts for 60 damage, which is about the limit before you start running into heat issues. durring that face time the enemy is getting shaken pretty bad and cannot return. so its effective against single targets at moderate range. its also good at multiple targets at long range (where most of them are too far out to return fire).

mechs with 3 or fewer ballistics would do well to add ac2 quirks (in sort of the same spirit in that any light with fewer than 4 machine gun slots need mg quirks) to make ac2s more formidable in those builds. especially anything with clustered ballistic points. clusters dont make a lot of sense otherwise.

other things you might do to help mechs with fewer ac2s, increase fire rate, decrease heat, and bring back ghost heat on 4+ gun configs (guns should perform as they do now on 6 gun builds, but fewer gun builds would get major buffs as a result). and of course an ac2 cd module would be nice.

I've never fired off 6x AC2's since i use 85-90% light mechs...the Dakka Dakka sound must be awesome if you chainfire them. XD
Never thought i'd say Ghost Heat is a good thing. If getting Ghost Heat in trade gets the AC2 enough firerate to compete with weapons of equal tonnage i'm all for it.

[sycocys]

Spleenslitta, on 19 May 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

We're currently trying to find a way around the 3.6 secs facetime necessary to do 10 damage in comparison to the ER PPC instant 10 damage.
Getting reduced shake, smaller explosions, firing flash and less heat can only take us so far with the current AC2.

It really doesn't need reduced face time. Like any other weapon its best in bunches.

And for a light as I see you were discussing as long as you are moving you can face time near infinitely in most other than the slow clan lights. Damage wise it doesn't need to be on par with a PPC, or LL - it's perfectly fine where it was at pre-ghost heat other than it rocked the Fn H out of anything it hit.

The only major things wrong with it are the heat and the disproportionate shake it causes - the second is the reason the first got put into place.

[Spleenslitta]

Pjwned, on 19 May 2015 - 02:30 PM, said:

If the heat was reduced enough I don't see how it wouldn't make up for the facetime.

And what about when you land on maps that are even more hot than usual, which are more common than cold maps? I also think you overestimate the effect of cold maps a bit, although that's not to say it doesn't have a noticeable impact on heat generation because it obviously does.

It's like i said earlier. Try firing 4-5 times to get 8-10 damage with a single regular AC2 to compete with a single ER PPC in a light mech.
See what it gets you in return. Probably a dual Gauss slug/ PPC bolt.
Firing for about 3.6 secs while keeping in view of your target and then get behind cover in a light mech?
I estimate you're dead after doing that 7-10 times.
That's roughly 180-200 unfocused damage from the AC2 if you're very accurate....not exactly something to celebrate.

Come to think of it. When i used that single UAC2 on my Kit Fox heat was not exactly a huge issue even on Therra Therma.
It was there but not as much as the long facetime. I only used the heatsinks in the engine too.
The CERML gave me much more troubles when it comes to heat just as it should be since it's an energy weapon.

sycocys, on 19 May 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

It really doesn't need reduced face time. Like any other weapon its best in bunches.

And for a light as I see you were discussing as long as you are moving you can face time near infinitely in most other than the slow clan lights. Damage wise it doesn't need to be on par with a PPC, or LL - it's perfectly fine where it was at pre-ghost heat other than it rocked the Fn H out of anything it hit.

The only major things wrong with it are the heat and the disproportionate shake it causes - the second is the reason the first got put into place.

Just try what i said to Pjwned. See where it gets you. Talk to me tommorrow. Bring a video if you can.

[Torchfire Katayama]

I see no need to make every weapon the same. The AC 2 is different from a PPC is different from an LRM is different from a laser.

What I read from this is "Make all weapons to the same damage over a same amount of time." Not all weapons are created equal, some excel at certain things. The AC2 accels at constant damage at low heat, the PPC excels at doing damage to one part of the body quickly. They both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Instead of arguing about making all weapons equal to one another, just chose the weapons that fit your play style and needs best.

[sycocys]

Difference between using a slow clan mech, the kit fox is 97/106 from what I recall of the top of my head and something 120-130+ if you mount it on a raven for instance. Also half the problem is trying to solve 2 different ac/2 weapons at the same time - the clan one requires twice the face time of the IS one right from the get go because it fires 2 shells (even if they are rapid, it still requires twice the time to put that shot on target).

Just based on the speed of the mech a raven can have vastly increased face time because it can maneuver much more efficiently between cover and the target.

But 1:1 the clan/IS Ac/2's aren't equal, when you start factoring in trying to use slow lights as well you start taking the weapon out of the equation and start putting it on poor mech balance and design.

[Spleenslitta]

Torchfire, on 19 May 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

I see no need to make every weapon the same. The AC 2 is different from a PPC is different from an LRM is different from a laser.

What I read from this is "Make all weapons to the same damage over a same amount of time." Not all weapons are created equal, some excel at certain things. The AC2 accels at constant damage at low heat, the PPC excels at doing damage to one part of the body quickly. They both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Instead of arguing about making all weapons equal to one another, just chose the weapons that fit your play style and needs best.

That's one way to look at it. An AC2 capable of rivaling a weapon with equal tonnage...i could use that and it would suit my playstyle pretty well.

As for the "Make all weapons to the same damage over a same amount of time." issue- How was i supposed to balance it?
No matter how you look at it there is a reason the AC2s are not popular. I think only the Flamers see less action and you know they are not popular either.

sycocys, on 19 May 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

Difference between using a slow clan mech, the kit fox is 97/106 from what I recall of the top of my head and something 120-130+ if you mount it on a raven for instance. Also half the problem is trying to solve 2 different ac/2 weapons at the same time - the clan one requires twice the face time of the IS one right from the get go because it fires 2 shells (even if they are rapid, it still requires twice the time to put that shot on target).

Just based on the speed of the mech a raven can have vastly increased face time because it can maneuver much more efficiently between cover and the target.

But 1:1 the clan/IS Ac/2's aren't equal, when you start factoring in trying to use slow lights as well you start taking the weapon out of the equation and start putting it on poor mech balance and design.

It's not the face time required to deliver a single trigger pull of shells i'm talking about.
It's about how long it takes to get decent damage.....think of it like this.

You got a single IS AC2 in it's weapon selection on your light mech. You get out of cover and shoot it at long range twice for 4 damage and get back into cover.
By this time a light mech with a single ER PPC in it's weapons loadout would deliver 10 pinpoint damage instantly and get back into cover.
It's easy to see why the AC2 cannot become popular and it ain't the heat that's the main problem.

[Spleenslitta]

I'm off for the night MWO community. Good night.
Hopefully Alistair Winter will be back with some time on his hands.
That guy sounded like he could solve these problems through his math skills.

[LordNothing]

Spleenslitta, on 19 May 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

I've never fired off 6x AC2's since i use 85-90% light mechs...the Dakka Dakka sound must be awesome if you chainfire them. XD
Never thought i'd say Ghost Heat is a good thing. If getting Ghost Heat in trade gets the AC2 enough firerate to compete with weapons of equal tonnage i'm all for it.

i kinda wish the weapon was more effective on lights. you could put an ac10 or 20 on a raven or firestarter if you want a bad mech with a hard damage ceiling (you will run out of ammo). but if you want to effectively use an ac on a light a 2s and 5s are pretty much your only options. while the ac/uac5 can stand on its own, the ac2 definitely needs a little help, especially when only one is used.

the bj-1 gets a 25% cooldown reduction quirks, which makes the ac2s much more effective as sort of a long range heavy machine gun. seeing something like that on all lights with ballistic points would be nice, but give anything 25 tons or less a little bit more. there are only a handful of lights with ballistic points, and so it should be to hard to give them 20-40% ac2 fire rate quirks (ac2 specific so as not to facilitate troll builds with larger acs). and this is just to make ac2 a viable option on the lights.

[Spleenslitta]

LordNothing, on 20 May 2015 - 02:11 AM, said:

i kinda wish the weapon was more effective on lights. you could put an ac10 or 20 on a raven or firestarter if you want a bad mech with a hard damage ceiling (you will run out of ammo). but if you want to effectively use an ac on a light a 2s and 5s are pretty much your only options. while the ac/uac5 can stand on its own, the ac2 definitely needs a little help, especially when only one is used.

the bj-1 gets a 25% cooldown reduction quirks, which makes the ac2s much more effective as sort of a long range heavy machine gun. seeing something like that on all lights with ballistic points would be nice, but give anything 25 tons or less a little bit more. there are only a handful of lights with ballistic points, and so it should be to hard to give them 20-40% ac2 fire rate quirks (ac2 specific so as not to facilitate troll builds with larger acs). and this is just to make ac2 a viable option on the lights.

Yup. What you describe is the AC2 problem in a nutshell. It's not a good standalone weapon even at long range which is supposed to be it's ideal range.
Someone mentioned it's a weapon to be used alongside lasers as a small coldfiring addon damage dealer.
But for a light that's not good enough.

[Gen0]

Personally my problem is not specifically the AC2 (although I've never really had success with them, they remind me of IS Small Pulse: they suck most if not all of the time) but the gulf between the MG and the next smallest ballistic weapon.

Very often you will have 3+ blue hardpoints you need to fill and no combination of ACs will ever make optimal use of all of them. You end up sticking dual AC5s or a Gauss/AC20 and ignoring the rest because the difference between .25 tons and 5 tons is basically the entire tonnage range of all other weapon types, and that .25 is redundant if you plan to build a mech that isn't a facehugger.

If there is obviously a "big gap in the ballistic market economy" in which pilots are clamouring for a more effective and possibly lighter ballistic weapon, doesn't it make plain sense that an "XL-AC2" of sorts should come out?

I may say that in jest, but it would be nice if the AC2 took up more pod space and lost a ton, it might convince me to take it out for a ride once in a while. The fact is that it's too damn heavy for what it does, period, and I care not what PGI have to say about their reluctance to lower it's weight. Making it weigh less not only fixes it, but also somewhat cures the major problem with multiple ballistic hardpoints being useless in a tonnage-limited chassis as a whole.

Honestly, the (U)AC2 is built for engagements we never have. It would make sense in extended engagements, but it's too hot. It would make sense in weight limited mechs (read lights, summoner, executioner etc etc) but it weighs 5 tons. It would make sense as a DPS alternative to the UAC5, one that only really starts to lead in damage against the UAC after a few valuable seconds of facetime, but PGI nerfed it.

Honestly, what is it's current purpose? How about you throw in a ton of ammo to the actual weapon and make it explosive like the gauss rifle, that might work. There's a million ways you could try to balance it.

Edited by Gen0, 23 June 2015 - 02:20 PM.

[Roadkill]

Mcgral18, on 19 May 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

Revert the AC2 to 4DPS (it really didn't need that 30% damage nerf).

Decrease heat (to offset that RoF increase)

Increase c(u)AC2 to 3000 M/s. Do that for all cACs (travel speed related to shell damage, in comparison to isACs. Not a 4 damage shell travel the same as a 20 damage shell)

+1.

As for the "decrease heat" line, I'd start with 0.5 heat per shot vs the current 1.0 heat per shot.

[Andi Nagasia]

Roadkill, on 23 June 2015 - 03:53 PM, said:

+1.

As for the "decrease heat" line, I'd start with 0.5 heat per shot vs the current 1.0 heat per shot.

yup, i have a Topic about just changing the AC2s cooldown,
from 0.72(2.78DPS) down to 0.52(3.84DPS) just by reducing the Cooldown,,
(Would This Make The Ac2 A More Viable Choice? Discussion!)

[Roadkill]

Andi Nagasia, on 23 June 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

yup, i have a Topic about just changing the AC2s cooldown,
from 0.72(2.78DPS) down to 0.52(3.84DPS) just by reducing the Cooldown,,
(Would This Make The Ac2 A More Viable Choice? Discussion!)

It doesn't need to fire faster, it needs to generate less heat.