61 replies to this topic

[Raggedyman]

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

Hey there. So I'm not going to harp on about the Timber Wolf nerfs - there are plenty of other threads for that purpose. Instead, I would like to discuss the Timber Wolf A

harping on about one specific thing that has changed is still harping on about changes.

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

Basically the Timber A was released into the gift shop, and it provided something that none of the other variants have: super-high energy mounts that are above the cockpit, allowing laser-puke builds to hill-hump instead of knuckle-dragging with low-slung clanner E arm hardpoints.

I'm sorry, did I miss something? I thought that that part was still there.

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

Now that the Timber A has been out for a while, quite a few people have spent money to purchase it from the gift shop since it's not available for C-bills or even MC yet.

"2. Content. We may, from time to time at our sole discretion and without notice or liability, create, amend, change, or delete any content from the PGI Offerings."

Am I the only person that actually reads these things??

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

So the way I see it, PGI put out a variant that had a unique advantage over its brethren, selling it for a fairly expensive price for a digital object.

Yet curiously mid-range for mechs as a whole and a low price for a Timberwolf.

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

For comp players and other folks who play toip-tier min/maxed meta builds, it was an essential purchase. And yet now it has been rendered much less effective.

So it was OP and then they nerfed it after finding out it was OP?
The ********!

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

I am not going to get into the validity or lack thereof regarding the new Timber nerfs.

Cool, I'm also not going to call you Crying McCryingson of the Clan McWhaaaammbulance.

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

I think hitbox modification was the way to go, or perhaps negative quirks if that was not possible - but with thenerfs being a bit smaller. That's only my opinion, so you are welcome to disagree - but that is not what I want to talk about.

Then why did you bring it up?

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

What I wish to focus on is the possibility that this was an intentional and petty cash grab. I expect that I'm not the only one that is seriously disturbed by PGI selling something that is a 'must-have' for a certain group of players - comp and other high-Elo people - only to render it ineffective and fairly useless once they have made their money off of it. This seems like a bait and switch / petty cash grab.

Okay.....
You do realize how mental a plan that would have to be, right? I mean, it's pretty high risk a maneuver and all that. You don't think it could possibly be that they launched something and then had to fix the balancing after it went into the game, what with all that negative-impact on the community and stuff that would come out as a result of it?
Nope?
Not a little bit?

Okay, evil conspiracy it is.

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

If I give them the benefit of the doubt

which you didn't

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

[
I would say that there was simply a lack of coordination within the development team - somebody designed the A variant and another person did the nerfs, with no communication between the two. So that would be a case of foolishness and a lack of coordination and communication within the team.

Yeah, this happens a lot in games development. Plus people get things wrong and have to patch it later.

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

So which is it?

Well given that you've basically said that they did it as a cash grab I'm guessing the KGB and the Mafia did it??

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

Anybody have thoughts as to whether it is stupidity or malice? Or anything else to add?

I'm pretty much thinking it's stupidity, with a touch of malice because of you being all stung about losing your godlike OP toys

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

I do politely ask that we stay away from the topic of whether or not these nerfs are either a good thing or armageddon itself, as well as request that we stay away from the topic of whether these nerfs are actually that serious of a thing or not.

....because you've already made it pretty clear that it's the end of days.

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

I would ask that we keep the discussion to the topic of whether or not this was a purposeful and deceptive cash grab, and if so what the implications of such a situation may be.

It wasn't and the implication is that if stuff is OP it'll get nerfed.
If nothing else they would have made way more money by keeping the OP stuff as "must have" because everyone would buy it and they wouldn't have a week of people screaming that it's the end of Western Civilization

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

It may well be the case that this is all much ado about very little - or it may be that the Timber is rendered ineffective. That isn't the point though;

Then Stop Bringing It Up Already!!

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

the point I am making is related to the principle of the matter - or lack of principles to be honest: it is wrong to purposely get people to spend money on something (A variant) only to render it ineffective to try and get them to make a second purchase (Wave 3).

My question to you is "do you now beat your wife more or less than you used to"

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Aresye Kerensky, on 19 May 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

The only reason I bought the TBR-A was to have at least SOME type of ability to face the hulled-down STK-4N firing lines that DIDN'T require exposing nearly my entire mech.

Seeing as how that purpose is completely nullified now, I've asked for a refund on my TBR-A.

Not expecting to get it, but there is literally no purpose in having that variant anymore. The cons far outweigh the pros.

For what it gives you, the TBR-A left torso is still great for those who have been running the 2 LPL-Gauss build. It definitely got the appropriate nerf. I disagree with the way they handled the nerfs for all the other pods except for the A-pod, it would've been the goto pod for all TWolves once it got released for C-Bills. Granted not much has changed thanks to badly thought out nerfs for the other pods.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 19 May 2015 - 01:13 PM.

[grendeldog]

To everybody who decided to be a **** instead of making substantive arguments: I don't play clans!

I play IS for christsake, I'm Rasalhague. Are you blind? Or can you see my faction via my avatar?

Second - and this goes to you Raggedy (is that a reference to the Doctor? I hope so!) - I am saying that either PGI put something on sale that was OP without having the miniscule foresight required to predict it would be overpowered, or they put it out knowing they would have to nerf it... but only after making a chunk of change off of it.

The first option is stupidity; the second is malicious. Is that so hard to wrap your minds around?

And again, my point is not that I am bitchin about the T-wolf itself - if you had bothered to read my last post thoroughly you would see that I just said how the nerf does not feel nearly so severe as I expected now that I have had a chance to play with it. My point is that PGI has shown itself to either be totally unorganized or purposely shady and greedy. It is not the T-wolf specifically, but rather the principle of the thing. That is to say releasing something that is debatably overpowered for real money only to nerf it into line with other mechs once they have made money off of it.

Seriously though, do you people not read posts before talking trash?

[Raggedyman]

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

Second - and this goes to you Raggedy (is that a reference to the Doctor? I hope so!)

Swing and a miss, two more tries and then you're out.

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

I am saying that either PGI put something on sale that was OP without having the miniscule foresight required to predict it would be overpowered, or they put it out knowing they would have to nerf it... but only after making a chunk of change off of it.

No, you are repeatedly saying it was malice/intentional and paying lip service to the idea that they could have mucked up.

Making a muck up of it is far, far simpler the option and makes far, far more sense. So why are you obsessed with the idea that it was a cynical (possibly suicidal) money grab? And if it was a money grab why weren't all the giftshop mechs in on the trick, so that PGI could rake in money from folks of all wallet-sizes? It's hardly a trick they can pull more than once (due to the number of people who will now being chanting "don't buy anything, it'll get nerfed!!") so why would they do it to one single $20 item??

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

The first option is stupidity; the second is malicious. Is that so hard to wrap your minds around?

I get your theory, I just think it's full of ****.

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

if you had bothered to read my last post thoroughly you would see that I just said how the nerf does not feel nearly so severe as I expected now that I have had a chance to play with it. My point is that PGI has shown itself to either be totally unorganized or purposely shady and greedy. It is not the T-wolf specifically, but rather the principle of the thing. That is to say releasing something that is debatably overpowered for real money only to nerf it into line with other mechs once they have made money off of it.

You keep on presenting the two options and then going "ITS THIS ONE!!! ITS THIS ONE!!!".
That's hardly presenting an 'either / or' approach to it.

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

Seriously though, do you people not read posts before talking trash?

Yes, and it's cobblers

[Tombstoner]

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

Basically the Timber A was released into the gift shop, and it provided something that none of the other variants have: super-high energy mounts that are above the cockpit, allowing laser-puke builds to hill-hump instead of knuckle-dragging with low-slung clanner E arm hardpoints. The A variant left torso omnipod immediately became an integral and nearly mandatory part of the top-tier las-vom and gauss+puke meta builds. The movement nerf quirks were completely insignificant in my experience; the advantage of those energy mounts above the cockpit far outweighed any reduction in movement and maneuverability.

So pay to Win. at the very least you payed for a clear competitive advantage.

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

the way I see it, PGI put out a variant that had a unique advantage over its brethren, selling it for a fairly expensive price for a digital object. For comp players and other folks who play toip-tier min/maxed meta builds, it was an essential purchase. And yet now it has been rendered much less effective.


What I wish to focus on is the possibility that this was an intentional and petty cash grab. I expect that I'm not the only one that is seriously disturbed by PGI selling something that is a 'must-have' for a certain group of players - comp and other high-Elo people - only to render it ineffective and fairly useless once they have made their money off of it. This seems like a bait and switch / petty cash grab.

Game has notices that game play is subject to change..... its still a beta after all...

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

If I give them the benefit of the doubt I would say that there was simply a lack of coordination within the development team - somebody designed the A variant and another person did the nerfs, with no communication between the two. So that would be a case of foolishness and a lack of coordination and communication within the team. On the other hand there is the much worse possibility that this was purposely designed as a cash grab to make money off of players in an unfair fashion. By this I mean that they release something that is required for a certain type of play, only to render it mostly useless once they have made enough money and the frequency of purchases begins to level off and drop. And not only that, by doing so they ensure that people who want to play clans may need to purchase the new Wave 3 pack to continue to be as competitive as before, adding a second money grab on top of the original trickery / potential thievery.

I say nothing new here at all. The entire clan release was OP up until the day the first mechs became available for in game money. PGI has been hammering all clan mechs since that day. Early adopters got to roll stomp people who didnt pay for months.... i refused to let this happen to myself and took a break to let things settle out.

Over all PGI released a product knowing it would sell for the reasons you listed and when it became an issue..... "fixed it" Dont worry about this OP... you aint seen nothing yet..... PGI has lots more cards up its sleeves.
Original PGI non cannon mech designs.....nope no chance in hell thats going to be balanced.....

Edited by Tombstoner, 19 May 2015 - 01:44 PM.

[grendeldog]

Raggedyman, on 19 May 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

Swing and a miss, two more tries and then you're out.

Shame, Doctor Who kicks arse.

Quote

No, you are repeatedly saying it was malice/intentional and paying lip service to the idea that they could have mucked up.

Exactly. It can be either one. My personal opinion is that it was a calculated decision - I don't like that possibility, but I think that it is more likely. That's my opinion though.

Hence posting a thread asking other people which one *they* think it is. You think it was a lack of coordination, a mistake. That's fine, because you have an opinion and I have one too. They aren't the same opinion, but that's not a reason to be churlish and discourteous.

Quote

Making a muck up of it is far, far simpler the option and makes far, far more sense. So why are you obsessed with the idea that it was a cynical (possibly suicidal) money grab? And if it was a money grab why weren't all the giftshop mechs in on the trick, so that PGI could rake in money from folks of all wallet-sizes? It's hardly a trick they can pull more than once (due to the number of people who will now being chanting "don't buy anything, it'll get nerfed!!") so why would they do it to one single $20 item??

I get your theory, I just think it's full of ****.

Uh huh. Can I ask why you think a mistake is more likely, despite the small size of the dev team? Neither of us has access to PGI's sales numbers, so it's pure speculation on both of our parts. So if you speculate differently than I, why do you choose that option?

I think it was a calculated decision. That's a shite thing to do, but it would be motivated by financial necessity or some other financial situation or calculation. I find the idea repulsive, but if it is the case, then there is in fact a logical reason for that course of action on the part of PGI. It doesn't make them total penises, but it would seriously degrade my ability to view their future actions in good faith. That would be sad. So you see why it would be upsetting to me - I want to support this game, and I want to purchase cool, new mechs like the new Phract from the gift store or as package deals. But if I have a hard time trusting that they will not make a similar move in the future, my confidence in the game and in the developer isn't high enough for me to do so.

Quote

You keep on presenting the two options and then going "ITS THIS ONE!!! ITS THIS ONE!!!".

That's hardly presenting an 'either / or' approach to it.

And you're doing the exact same, just from the side of the other possibility. So how can you fault me for doing so when you are doing the same?

I made clear I wanted to hear others opinions on the matter - and then I gave my own opinion. I don't see the problem here, unless you just want to argue for argument's sake.

[anonymous161]

Meh I myself already refunded wave 3 a while back but these nerfs only make me really wish I never got these mechs. They were not op just in certain situations maybe but they clearly dont like the clan mechs so why are they selling them at outrageous prices compared to the is mechs?

Just dont spend money on the game anymore and dont play cw at all eventually they will see that the players really dont live on an island and can think for themselves.

I'm just gonna take a break with the game been playing too long seeing no positive gameplay changes no added fun modes, none of the new maps are very good especially in cw they suck.

Game is getting boring the arrival of the clans added some flavor but it's gotten bitter with how they are handling them and I sold almost all of my is mechs after getting first wave I since then gotten a few of them back but boy did I waste a ton of money thinking clans were going to be really fun to have in the game only for them to hurt the game in the long run.

Edited by Darth Bane001, 19 May 2015 - 02:03 PM.

[grendeldog]

Tombstoner, on 19 May 2015 - 01:41 PM, said:

So pay to Win. at the very least you payed for a clear competitive advantage.

I guess you could say that's true. I am practicing with some other people in my unit with the goal of competing in leagues and stuff. So like it or not, to fail to use the most super-meta nonsense would be to put my team as a competative disadvantage.

When I pug I run goofy-arse builds that I enjoy. When I practice with my team and join the group queue, I choose meta builds, because I want to be on a level playing field as far as builds go with the enemy, so as to (hopefully) allow skill to determine the match. Prior to joining the team to practice for comp play I avoided meta builds like the plague and talked them down as lame, because I didn't - and don't - want to be the whiny tryhard for whom winning by any means necessary is the only way to have fun. But if I am going to be a solid part of my team in comp play - and it's not yet certain at all that I have anywhere near the requisite amount of skill - I will go along with whatever the meta is, because I would expect the adversary to do the same.

Does that make sense? I hope that elucidates my thoughts on an arguably OP omnipod and on the meta in general.

Quote

Game has notices that game play is subject to change..... its still a beta after all...

I expect it to change. What concerns me are certain possibilities as far as the reason for this specific change.

Quote

I say nothing new here at all. The entire clan release was OP up until the day the first mechs became available for in game money. PGI has been hammering all clan mechs since that day. Early adopters got to roll stomp people who didnt pay for months.... i refused to let this happen to myself and took a break to let things settle out.

Over all PGI released a product knowing it would sell for the reasons you listed and when it became an issue..... "fixed it" Dont worry about this OP... you aint seen nothing yet..... PGI has lots more cards up its sleeves.
Original PGI non cannon mech designs.....nope no chance in hell thats going to be balanced.....

I want around when the clans first came out, so I can't speak to their OP-ness at that time. I only joined the game this past February.

With that said, my thoughts are that PGI has made the game literally impossible to balance through quirks. See, the real issue IMO is that certain weapons are too powerful and others are not viable - and this on both the IS and clan sides. What they need to do is to redesign and rebalance the weapons and their associated variables: DPS, HPS, ghost heat, ammo, projectile velocity, and on and on.

But with quirks, what is totally non-viable on one mech may be totally OP on another chassis, because they would have differing quirks - PPCs with their heat and especially velocity quirks are emblematic of this issue. And so you actually cannot balance the weapons now at all, because they have differing values for their relevent variables depending on what mech they are mounted upon.

Quirks are therefor in my opinion a quick, mostly unhelpful bandaid for the fundamental balance issue both begween clans and IS and also between mechs on each side. And those issues stem from hitreg, HSR implementation, and fundamentally unbalanced weaponry, again both between IS and clans as well as amongst mechs on a given side.

And this is to say nothing of ghost heat and whether or not it is a good mechanic or whether it too is a bandaid, etc.

This game is not balanced; I expect it it never will be. I just want it to be as balanced as possible, and want to be able to trust the developer to have good intentions at heart even if I disagree with some things they do. Because if I believe they have good intentions even if some changes are IMO misguided, I can still support them through buying mechs for real money in good faith.

But if I cannot trust their intentions, providing that monetary support to try and help make the future of the game both long running and fun is a harder decision to justify in my mind.

[Tombstoner]

Mystere, on 19 May 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

[redacted]

[redacted]

grendeldog, on 19 May 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:

I guess you could say that's true. I am practicing with some other people in my unit with the goal of competing in leagues and stuff. So like it or not, to fail to use the most super-meta nonsense would be to put my team as a competative disadvantage.

When I pug I run goofy-arse builds that I enjoy. When I practice with my team and join the group queue, I choose meta builds, because I want to be on a level playing field as far as builds go with the enemy, so as to (hopefully) allow skill to determine the match. Prior to joining the team to practice for comp play I avoided meta builds like the plague and talked them down as lame, because I didn't - and don't - want to be the whiny tryhard for whom winning by any means necessary is the only way to have fun. But if I am going to be a solid part of my team in comp play - and it's not yet certain at all that I have anywhere near the requisite amount of skill - I will go along with whatever the meta is, because I would expect the adversary to do the same.

Does that make sense? I hope that elucidates my thoughts on an arguably OP omnipod and on the meta in general.


I expect it to change. What concerns me are certain possibilities as far as the reason for this specific change.


I want around when the clans first came out, so I can't speak to their OP-ness at that time. I only joined the game this past February.

With that said, my thoughts are that PGI has made the game literally impossible to balance through quirks. See, the real issue IMO is that certain weapons are too powerful and others are not viable - and this on both the IS and clan sides. What they need to do is to redesign and rebalance the weapons and their associated variables: DPS, HPS, ghost heat, ammo, projectile velocity, and on and on.

But with quirks, what is totally non-viable on one mech may be totally OP on another chassis, because they would have differing quirks - PPCs with their heat and especially velocity quirks are emblematic of this issue. And so you actually cannot balance the weapons now at all, because they have differing values for their relevent variables depending on what mech they are mounted upon.

Quirks are therefor in my opinion a quick, mostly unhelpful bandaid for the fundamental balance issue both begween clans and IS and also between mechs on each side. And those issues stem from hitreg, HSR implementation, and fundamentally unbalanced weaponry, again both between IS and clans as well as amongst mechs on a given side.

And this is to say nothing of ghost heat and whether or not it is a good mechanic or whether it too is a bandaid, etc.

This game is not balanced; I expect it it never will be. I just want it to be as balanced as possible, and want to be able to trust the developer to have good intentions at heart even if I disagree with some things they do. Because if I believe they have good intentions even if some changes are IMO misguided, I can still support them through buying mechs for real money in good faith.

But if I cannot trust their intentions, providing that monetary support to try and help make the future of the game both long running and fun is a harder decision to justify in my mind.

You speak much truth and have much wisdom for some one so new to MWO.....

Once Ghost heat was added i knew PGI was [doing something I didn't agree with]. My only hope is a MWO2.0 with PVE.

Edited by Marvyn Dodgers, 20 May 2015 - 03:29 PM.
Unconstructive and language

[C E Dwyer]

Anyone remember the posts when WoT nerfed the T-59

[LT. HARDCASE]

You're playing an online multiplayer game, one whose balance in constant flux. Everything you buy may be changed for the negative, if it's deemed too powerful, regardless of whether it's acquired with cbills or real money.

Every intelligent person should have the foresight to realize this.

[jaxjace]

Russ's exact words; the timberwolf will always be powerful.

If people seriously cannot play anything but that mech, -still the most powerful mech in the game in terms of raw stats.
Then maybe you shouldn't be playing.

All the wave 3 cancellations are so delicious QQ

The meta babies are crying so hard, and its even better because they aren't at a disadvantage at all. They never were.

Meta is for the ******* unoriginal and the brain dead. If you need it to do well, you suck, end of story. Meta does not make Good players better, it is actually only a crutch, and should be detested and looked down upon as such. Also, how proud do you really feel when you get 500dmg in a dual ppc gauss timber, I mean, COME ON. dare I say I could slap my **** on the keyboard and do that.

Edited by jaxjace, 19 May 2015 - 02:44 PM.

[Evan20k]

Since OP has demonstrated a love of image macros....

[jaxjace]

Evan20k, on 19 May 2015 - 02:42 PM, said:

Since OP has demonstrated a love of image macros....

CRY engine indeed.

[zagibu]

Is smurfy outdated or are you guys really whining about 12% longer burn time and cooldown?

[Deathlike]

It's a little of both.

The question is... based on PGI's track record, you could argue either, because you never really know where they actually stand.

[Zordicron]

or..... OR,

They released it into the store, and all the tryhards bought one like OP says. Then PGI guys observed the effect as the tryhards used these mechs, and decided "well ****, this can't fly" and decided to nip it in the butt as soon as possible, before more people bought them, before it went out for MC and c-bills.

be it a good decision to have even put the thing into existence or not in the first place- well, thats another debate. but they did, and they had to address it after.

Instead of just BITCHING about it, maybe people should start pushing PGI (Russ) on twitter to throw a month of free premium time or some other good will gesture at the people that bought the mech before the nerf.

[TLBFestus]

Apnu, on 19 May 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

Malice. Yeah right. Anybody who thinks PGI is malicious is not living in reality.

Stupidity. This statement is stupid on its face. If they were truly stupid, this game would never have gotten out of CB. One cannot be a software engineer and stupid. Anybody who's taken any 101 level Computer Science course will know this.

I believe that the two words that should have been used in the OPs original post are "Incompetent" and "Premeditated".

[Mystere]

Unfortunately, my stock builds got slapped too.

[Gremlich Johns]

At this point, it should be patently obvious to everybody that after a new mech is offered for sale, within months, it will not be the mech that was advertised - in fact, it will invariably become a lesser capable variant. What shocks me is the mindless manner in which people STILL shell out real money for the offerings.

you still giving PGI money have become prey

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 19 May 2015 - 03:37 PM.