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So...could We Talk About The Tuesday Quirks A Bit? Numbers Are Scary!


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#1 Fleeb the Mad

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 11:41 PM

Right, so. Nobody seems to be shedding a tear about the FS9 or the STK-4N, but the forums have exploded in unholy vengeance at the idea of nerfs to the Stormcrow and the Timber Wolf. I have Stormcrows myself that I paid real money-dollars for, and I've seen those leering red numbers.

I have opinions on that, but that doesn't matter right now. It's more important that people understand that the big red numbers are only scary if you don't know what they mean. In fact the quirks seem to be very specifically, and I daresay, intelligently targeted.

Yeah, seriously. For real and stuff. Let me tell you why.

Bigger Cooldown Numbers:

So what does longer weapon cooldown mean to the Stormcrow and the Timber Wolf?

My thought is...not very much honestly.

As someone who drives some Clan mechs, I tend to notice that in any sustained firefight, my damage is limited more by heat than by cooldowns. The negative quirks on my Dire Wolf laser pods are meaningless because I can only fire my lasers two times before overheating. The extra cooldown time doesn't matter when I can't shoot any more. Same is true of the Stormcrow. It carries way more firepower than it can sustain using.

So...all a cooldown increase means is, in situations where I'd fire to my heat cap and go into cover to cool, I have to wait a bit longer to fire twice. If I was in a Stormcrow with 7 lasers, that would be 21% cooldown and 21% on laser duration. Big scary numbers.

Actual maximum time difference on Medium Lasers: 21% on 3 second cooldown = 0.63 seconds. 21% on a 1.15 second burst = 0.24 seconds. Total: 0.83 seconds more exposure per volley, assuming no quirks and no modules.

That's noticable but it's not crippling. It doesn't even matter if you shoot and scoot only a single volley because hanging out for 4 seconds to wait for refire before the changes was never in the cards.

In a sustained fight you'll be waiting for your heat to bleed off so you can fire, so it's only meanginful for an alphastrike-centric build that has to fire multiple volleys in quick succession.

Laser Duration Numbers

Laser duration is effectively a direct damage reduction. It's harder to keep on a target for a longer burst, so more damage is wasted. Give a target more time to twist or duck back into cover. It's that 0.24 seconds again (or 0.315 on those large lasers).

So it's harder for my Stormcrow laser boat to focus damage and also to deal its full damage. That hurts the most in brawl range where things are moving a lot. The more things move, the more damage gets spread around no matter how good a shot you are.

Conspiratory-Like Conclusions

These quirk changes give progressively bigger penalties the more you boat lasers on the SCR and TBR, creating weaknesses that limit the situations a pure laser spam build is good in. But it also does so in a way that doesn't hit other builds very hard. There's no change to how either of them maneuver or tank damage.

PPCs aren't affected by duration and you don't need to stack lots of energy hardpoints for them. Given they're again, heat-limited, changes in cooldown only matter in trying to fire to heat cap as fast as possible.

Conspiracy point two: did you ever notice a common complaint on the forums is about pinpoint-alpha abilities and instant convergence making it too easy to focus damage? Increasing laser duration makes it harder to concentrate damage on one location and increasing cooldown hurts laser-alphastrike builds, but doesn't effectively limit sustained DPS on brawlers because of heat limits. It even seems to encourage the use of missiles or autocannons on brawler builds. Or just use fewer lasers that you need to shoot more.

Conspiracy point three: Timing. People have been saying this is a way to promote Wave III sales. As a Wave II buyer...uh, well. I'm not feeling like they did a lot to push that particular purchase. If it was all about timing, it would've been nicer of them to nerf the first Clan mechs months ago to boost Wave II sales, then nerf the Wave II mechs. But I seriously can't recall my Garg being pay to win or popular enough for a near-future nerfing to increase Wave III sales. I think it has to do more with the coming Steam release and pushing very hard to take care of lingering issues that will be important for first impressions. I kinda wish this sort of stuff would've happened ages ago, but better late than never.

My conclusion is that the quirk changes were chosen to specifically reduce the amount of pinpoint damage laser spam builds could dump over a short amount of time, without seriously affecting the viability of other builds.

My personal opinion on the topic is that it's warranted and I'm OK with it. I am in favor of lower TTK and I'd rather bring the top performers down rather than let them set a bar everything else has to be brought up to. The numbers look scarier than they actually are, and personally I wonder if it will actually make a big enough dent to change anything. Will people take Novas for laser spam now? Is...is that a thing it's supposed to be good at? People on the forums raging over it need to test it before calling upon heavenly justice to avenge their purchases.

Seriously, how dumb is this going to look if the meta doesn't actually change?

Edited by Fleeb the Mad, 17 May 2015 - 11:57 PM.


#2 Sergeant Random

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 12:01 AM

Exposure to return fire is more related to laser duration. So the more E hardpoints you lay on, the more risky a full burn is. He is right about the cooldown though. More times a laser build's dps is restricted by heat.

*Edit - grammar

Edited by Sergeant Random, 18 May 2015 - 12:27 AM.


#3 Deathlike

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 12:03 AM

For the record, the Hellbringer is still the #1 reason to even bother with Wave 2.

In essence, if you already have a Hellbringer, you are automatically prepared for the Timberwolf nerf.

#4 kesmai

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 12:21 AM

Well, the cool down isn't the major problem. The laser duration is.

most energy boating is mechs have quirks for less heat, shorter burn times. These new quirks mean that energy boating on the timber and the crow gives you (in the worst case for the timber) 21% less dps from longer burn time and 21% less dps from longer 'reload' time. Combined this is a 42% efficiency nerf for a few loadouts boating lasers. While facing the enemy longer to do full damage.
the crow and the timber might have been the best mechs in game, but this nerf hits just too hard.
correct me if i am wrong.

#5 Sergeant Random

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 12:34 AM

So equip CUACs to get the suppression effects from screen shake, flashing and impulse?

#6 Flutterguy

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 12:41 AM

View Postkesmai, on 18 May 2015 - 12:21 AM, said:

Well, the cool down isn't the major problem. The laser duration is.

most energy boating is mechs have quirks for less heat, shorter burn times. These new quirks mean that energy boating on the timber and the crow gives you (in the worst case for the timber) 21% less dps from longer burn time and 21% less dps from longer 'reload' time. Combined this is a 42% efficiency nerf for a few loadouts boating lasers. While facing the enemy longer to do full damage.
the crow and the timber might have been the best mechs in game, but this nerf hits just too hard.
correct me if i am wrong.

You're wrong. It's not even 21% less DPS. You don't add 21% and 21% to get 42% less dps. Duration and Cooldown are added together to make the total time that you divide by for the DPS calculation. I'll try to break it down into simple numbers.

You have a 10 damage weapon with a 1 second cooldown and 1 second burn time.
This translates into a 5 dps weapon (10/(1+1)).
If you just add a 20% cooldown nerf you get 4.5 dps(10/(1.2+1)) or about a 10% nerf.
If you add 20% to both the cooldown and the duration you have about 4.15 dps (10/(1.2+1.2)) which is about a 17% damage nerf.
Anyways, these are just sample numbers but I hope you can see that the actual numbers aren't as scary as they sound.

Edited by Flutterguy, 18 May 2015 - 12:42 AM.


#7 Cyborne Elemental

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 12:52 AM

After looking at the #'s a while.. This nerf is actually pretty damn harsh..

If Clans had viable alternatives to go to, namely.. ballistics, it might not be so bad.

C-ERLL is going to be impossible to use on Timberwolves and Stormcrow, there literally will be no point in using them at all.
C-LPL might be ok, but even that is a stretch given the durations.

It all comes down to facetime. We all know how much AC-2 and other facetime weapons suck.. regardless of range.
When mechs like the Wolverine, Locust, Stalker, Thunderbolt can peek for 0.7 seconds, deal 100% of their damage and turn or retreat, thats huge..

This isn't a nerf, its a complete neutering of any laser builds for these 2 mechs.

#8 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 01:21 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 18 May 2015 - 12:03 AM, said:

For the record, the Hellbringer is still the #1 reason to even bother with Wave 2.

In essence, if you already have a Hellbringer, you are automatically prepared for the Timberwolf nerf.



HBR makes no sense to me. I keep trying it, but i keep not doing much. I currently have 2 LPL 3 ML on mine but never seem to do much wit hti. I did 421 1k and a few assists today, got several mechs stripped and almost dead but couldnt quite bring in the kill as htye backed off....HBR seems nice, but I guess im missing something with it....atleast it has ECM.

#9 kesmai

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 01:24 AM

#flutterguy thx4 thE math. So it is merely a 17% nerf in the worst case. Well that is great news. Not. Still you are facing the enemy 20% longer. Or is my math off here too?

#10 Roadbuster

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 01:54 AM

View PostMister D, on 18 May 2015 - 12:52 AM, said:

After looking at the #'s a while.. This nerf is actually pretty damn harsh..

This isn't a nerf, its a complete neutering of any laser builds for these 2 mechs.

I have to agree with this.

Clan lasers are not popular for their duration anyway.
And while the cooldown doesn't seem to be that bad first, I'm afraid of the consequences for other weapons and mixed loadouts.
Because this also hurts builds which don't use lasers only.
Clan mechs being heavy on energy weapons in general, doesn't help either.

I wouldn't have a problem with duration, if IS recieved the same negative quirks.
In fact, that might even be a good way to get rid of all the laser vomit on both sides.

But what Clans miss, are viable alternatives to lasers besides Gauss.



View PostLordKnightFandragon, on 18 May 2015 - 01:21 AM, said:

HBR makes no sense to me. I keep trying it, but i keep not doing much. I currently have 2 LPL 3 ML on mine but never seem to do much with it.

Get the good torso and head Omnipods and ignore the arms. Their biggest advantage are the high torso hardpoints.

Edited by Roadbuster, 18 May 2015 - 01:56 AM.


#11 Duke Nedo

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 02:48 AM

Imo a blanket 10% nerf for the chassi would have been better than the nerf per E-hardpoint we got, it adds another layer of ghost-duration which is unnecessary.

The builds I'll use will get a 6% or 9% nerf, that won't break the chassi, but some builds (full laser vomit) will be broken.

#12 xDust

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 02:52 AM

I feel like it's an issue when it gimps even stock loadouts. It'd be like giving the Awesome negative PPC quirks (purely anecdotal, of course, all actual issues aside).

Repeatedly been said, would be okay if there were better alternate weapons, but would be best if they tried fo nerf agility first.

#13 El Bandito

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 03:00 AM



Now I can finally ride those Clan mechs without feeling dirty.

#14 Kilo 40

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 03:10 AM

Devs: "ok guys here are the battle of tukayyid stats! ...most used clan mechs were storm crows and timber wolves. ....53% win loss ratio..."

couple of weeks later

Devs: "yeah, those timberwolves and storm crows are so OP guys. we gotta nerf them for balance. what's that? most used clan mechs during the battle of tukayyid were storm crows and timber wolves and the win loss ratio was still nearly even? uh...LOOK AT THAT SQUIRREL!!!" *runs away*

#15 MechWarrior5152251

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 04:02 AM

By far the biggest stat for energy weapons is heat.

Laser duration is probably the next most important stat, but it varies widely based on the map and target mech.

Range is another map dependent stat that has some bearing on overall performance though I have found that very little of the damage I do in a match is past optimum weapons range. I bet this is true for 90% of players.

Energy weapon cooldowns have literally no net effect on match dps scores.... they probably actually improve the score of less skilled players since you cannot overheat as easily....

#16 ztac

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 04:12 AM

Clans run hot anyway and that was always going to limit them , the IS nerfs pale in comparison to the Clan ones and I suspect that they are only there for PGI to look 'fair' , But in reality the nerfs for those IS mean not a lot!

IS still have plenty of other great mechs to use if they feel that those mechs have been over nerfed. However on the clan side there is not much left to fill the gap, Not to mention that DPS wise Clans were already the poor man!

Maybe PGI are trying to squeeze clan players out the game so that they can then just worry about balancing IS mechs once again!

People miss the brawling aspect on cooldowns , when you are in this situation a longer to fire weapon is not a good idea! We have exposure and time til next fire cycle is available. So think of it like this , An IS mech and Clan both pop out to shoot each other... The Clan has to stand their longer to get it's full potential of damage , But the IS can run behind cover having done it's damage!

Edited by ztac, 18 May 2015 - 04:18 AM.


#17 Duke Nedo

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 04:19 AM

To be fair, TBR and SCR are the better mechs before any nerfs so it's not unexpected that they get hit harder than the IS-side. The TDR's already have got their quirks reduced one iteration (justified), and may or may not have received their last treatment. In any case, this is a step in the right directions imo, it's just the way it's implemented that doesn't make sense to me.

Why do they need to nerf 4x cERML twice as hard as 2x cLPL? This whole "ghost laser duration" thing with more nerf for E every hardpoint you add doesn't make sense for me. None of the nerfed parameters affect other builds anyways, so why not just put a solid value to the chassi CT and leave the pods with only positive quirks? Much simpler and easier to relate to.

#18 El Bandito

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 04:48 AM

With longer cooldowns, Clan pilots might not overheat too much from spamming those lasers. :P


Edited by El Bandito, 18 May 2015 - 04:50 AM.


#19 kapusta11

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 04:56 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 18 May 2015 - 04:48 AM, said:

With longer cooldowns, Clan pilots might not overheat too much from spamming those lasers. :P




What? I thought Stormcow was invincible!

#20 Chuanhao

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 05:13 AM

The clan ACs and missiles are the way they are to balance against the advantages in weight and space requirements. So it's not that they are not viable, but because they are meant to be that way for BALANCE in the first.

I cannot now expect the developers to nerf the stronger mechs to make them less powerful, at the same time buffing other weaponry so that same mechs remain just as powerful. It makes no sense.

The whole point is that the game needs to have convergence point. It is never going to be perfect, so it's an on-going process. Nerds too hard now? The timber win/loss rate now drops below ice ferret? Time for a buff, and so on.

The timber could have been the ceiling in terms of power creep. They have now lowered that ceiling. So let's see how it goes. I mean IS thunders already had their nerfs, and now stalkers too. It's all about balance.

Not some weird connection with sales. It's a direct correlation with the results from Tukayyid, and in response to quite a number of forum suggestions. So all these questions is unnecessary, anyways, if u buy only because it's the all almighty powerful chosen one, u couldn't be more misguided. They said they would change quirks at any time. u knew that. So why the fuss? Make it a nice challenge to optimise on the TBR mobility instead of its alpha capabilities. If anything, these quirks just added a new challenge for those that had dominated with TbRs in the past.





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