97 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Johnny Z, on 22 May 2015 - 01:44 PM, said:

Where is your crutch in this picture.

I don't need any, unlike all CW-playing Spheroids.

Edited by Mystere, 22 May 2015 - 02:49 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

Speaking in general: The game could use some diversity when it comes to weapons. Lasers offer too many advantages as a package and taking all ranges and ammo dependency into account. Add to that that they have no velocity...well, and people cry about LRMs being easy mode. But I digress.

Mind, I do not say nerf lasers but make the other weapon system attractive enough to be a viable choice to lasers.

[SkyHammyr]

http://www.sarna.net...eflective_Armor

Make it a Mech Module.
Just hand-wave its appearance in the timeline a little and there you go!
As a side benefit- it can give FF a use, too.

Edited by SkyHammr, 22 May 2015 - 03:27 PM.

[Ultimax]

Bush Hopper, on 22 May 2015 - 03:14 PM, said:

Speaking in general: The game could use some diversity when it comes to weapons. Lasers offer too many advantages as a package and taking all ranges and ammo dependency into account. Add to that that they have no velocity...well, and people cry about LRMs being easy mode. But I digress.

Mind, I do not say nerf lasers but make the other weapon system attractive enough to be a viable choice to lasers.

We had that.

Those weapons for nerfed after countless poorly thought out threads like this one.

[Johnny Z]

Scratx, on 22 May 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

They're also hotter and have longer beam duration times and few if none of the clan mechs have quirks that improve upon them, unlike Inner Sphere. So, actually, they aren't devoid of tradeoffs.

Agreed. But the problem is that balancing has been slow coming and any balancing attempts are met with screams of agony from alot of Clan pilots. Again, since the first CERML to quirks till today the "its not the mech its the pilot" claims by Clan pilots that Omni mechs are balanced and fair have not ceased.

Finally there is almost an fair playing field. Almost.

[Elizander]

W A R K H A N, on 22 May 2015 - 12:31 PM, said:

Plz IS has just as much laser vomit backed up by quirks.
IS also has more functioning ballistics and Missiles

IS Missles. Seriously? The ones that weigh twice as much as clan missiles?

[Skarlock]

Stefka Kerensky, on 22 May 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

I want clan ballistic as good as IS ones.

period

Sure, just add 2 or 3 tons and a few extra crit slots as well. And remove endo and ferro that only take up 7 crit slots, that's definitely gotta go too to balance things out, but make it dynamic and toggleable so they are at least usable, and charge cbills because Paulconomy. And clan xl engines, those gotta go too. Same with 2 crit slot double heat sinks. Maybe add a few quirks to make up the gross lack of power as a result. And presto! You can now have ballistics JUST AS GOOD as the IS version!

[Y E O N N E]

Mcgral18, on 22 May 2015 - 01:22 PM, said:

ERLLs.

911M on select robots (35% total range boost), but between Clam range and that 911M

10% (rather common) range quirk brings them to parity with Clams, well, 2.5 meters more...but I'd consider that equal when robots are 5M wide.

They no longer have more damage per tick (0.1 difference, favours Clams), and the 27 damage VS 22 for ghost heat limits.

Any duration quirk makes IS have more damage per tick.

You are abusing the math again. C-ERLL does 11 damage and can be moduled up to 814 meters. More if you add in a targeting computer. The extra damage more than compensates for the range deficit. It's going to take four ERLL to gain rough equivalency to three C-ERLL, and that's also 20 tons versus 12 tons spent, and that's so space efficient that the locked slots and engine don't matter. The only universally useful boons for the ERLL are the 1.25 second burn time and the 8 heat, the latter of which is insufficient to provide parity against vastly superior heat-caps and dissipation.

[Mcgral18]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 May 2015 - 05:29 PM, said:

You are abusing the math again. C-ERLL does 11 damage and can be moduled up to 814 meters. More if you add in a targeting computer. The extra damage more than compensates for the range deficit. It's going to take four ERLL to gain rough equivalency to three C-ERLL, and that's also 20 tons versus 12 tons spent, and that's so space efficient that the locked slots and engine don't matter. The only universally useful boons for the ERLL are the 1.25 second burn time and the 8 heat, the latter of which is insufficient to provide parity against vastly superior heat-caps and dissipation.

And moduled with a 10% range boost, the isERLL has a 810M range.

Ghost heat on 3 cERLLs is 4.4 heat less than 4 isERLLs, 33 damage VS 34.

2 cERLLs is 22 damage and 20 heat, 3 isERLLx is 27 damage for 24 heat.


Not sure where I'm abusing math.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 22 May 2015 - 05:53 PM, said:

And moduled with a 10% range boost, the isERLL has a 810M range.

Ghost heat on 3 cERLLs is 4.4 heat less than 4 isERLLs, 33 damage VS 34.

2 cERLLs is 22 damage and 20 heat, 3 isERLLx is 27 damage for 24 heat.


Not sure where I'm abusing math.

While that's all accurate, CERLLS is only 8 tons vs. the 15 tons of the other build.

7 Tons of heatsinks is pretty solid.

[Yokaiko]

Johnny Z, on 22 May 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

Agreed. But the problem is that balancing has been slow coming and any balancing attempts are met with screams of agony from alot of Clan pilots. Again, since the first CERML to quirks till today the "its not the mech its the pilot" claims by Clan pilots that Omni mechs are balanced and fair have not ceased.

Finally there is almost an fair playing field. Almost.

Yeah the one game I played against IS was 7 man vs 7 man (I was solo dropping) and CJF stomped the Steiners like 22-48.

I don't even want to get into how bad the dropdeck I'm running is in order to maximize points.

Haven't lost a clan vs clan game yet either....

[Zaccheus]

Johnny Z, on 22 May 2015 - 01:44 PM, said:

See Clan weapons weigh less, do more damage, have longer range, take up less slots, but some Inner Sphere mechs have some weapons that have about the same range, very few though, and that leads to Giant Clan Baby tantrums. That they dont have every advantage to exploit is tear worthy if your a Clan pilot.

+1 nerf the crutch jockeys



Where is your crutch in this picture.

Last I checked all the positive quirks (almost literally crutches, or perhaps train g wheels would be a better name) are on IS mechs, so if the baby is a canner the reason he does t have a crutch is because the IS is using all of the crutches.

[Elkfire]

I'm sure it's probably been said, but to reiterate:

Clan "laservomit" (a term which, as someone who has always enjoyed energy weapon builds in MW games, makes me sad) is so prevalent because most of the other Clan weapons aren't very good compared to IS ones. Clan LRMS are stream-fire, clan Autocannons are stream-fire, etc. Clan SRMs aren't much different, at least, but SRMs aren't super awesome in general.

Edited by Elkfire, 22 May 2015 - 07:03 PM.

[FupDup]

Elkfire, on 22 May 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

I'm sure it's probably been said, but to reiterate:

Clan "laservomit" (a term which, as someone who has always enjoyed energy weapon builds in MW games, makes me sad) is so prevalent because most of the other Clan weapons aren't very good compared to IS ones. Clan LRMS are stream-fire, clan Autocannons are stream-fire, etc. Clan SRMs aren't much different, at least, but SRMs aren't super awesome in general.

I consider Clan LRMs to be roughly equivalent to IS LRMs, give or take (but admittedly the medium and light classes favor Clan models because they just have so little tonnage to begin with). They suffer from most of the same weaknesses that their IS counterparts do...

Clan SRMs are an almost direct upgrade to IS SRMs (+0.15 damage and -0.2 spread for double tonnage isn't worth it), they're pretty good. Their issue is just being very niche (short range specialist) while lasers are generalist all-purpose weapons that work at all ranges.

Clans ACs...yeah. I find that you need at least 2 of them to be more than a placebo, with the larger ones suffering some diminishing returns. Multiple CUAC/5 is viable (i.e. 2 UAC/5 + 4 ERML Hellbringer is a solid build), albeit not optimal unless you're a Dire Whale who can boat the bejesus out of them. They could use a bump of improvement.

Part of the issue is also that Clan lasers are so good, especially the ERML and LPL. Dat Clan LPL is just so sexy...

Edited by FupDup, 22 May 2015 - 07:29 PM.

[crashlogic]

Insert <<Generic LRM Whine>> here.
I wish PGI would fix problems like the hit reg on the spider or SRMS rather than worrying s much about balance.

[Lightfoot]

un-nerf Gauss Rifles, LRMs, and PPCs. This is Battle Tech, time to de-throne the Laser. Been saying that for years because the Clans will always win Laser-Brawl. More Quirks won't save the game, restore Battle Tech balance and let the newbs whine about some new meta each week.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 22 May 2015 - 07:25 PM, said:

Clans ACs...yeah. I find that you need at least 2 of them to be more than a placebo, with the larger ones suffering some diminishing returns. Multiple CUAC/5 is viable (i.e. 2 UAC/5 + 4 ERML Hellbringer is a solid build), albeit not optimal unless you're a Dire Whale who can boat the bejesus out of them. They could use a bump of improvement.

You need at least 2 IS AC 5s or UACs 5s to be more than a placebo as well. A single AC 10 is...OK, it often feels underwhelming - it also weighs almost as much as a CUAC 20.

The Clan UAC 10, is only 1 ton heavier than an IS UAC 5. 2x CUAC 10s is actually solid compared to say 2x IS UAC 5s, it's just that very few clan mechs can even run that and if they do they have to skimp on backup weapons.


The CUAC 20 is a feast or famine weapon, my major complaint with it is Unjam Time + Full CD is just way, way too long to be holding your limp pud. If the Jam issue wasn't so severe, I'd probably use this more often.



I think a slight projectile increase would be a good place to start to nudging CUACs into better usability and then see what happens from there - although I'd actually like to see most ballistics get a projectile buff across the board.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 22 May 2015 - 07:25 PM, said:

Clan SRMs are an almost direct upgrade to IS SRMs (+0.15 damage and -0.2 spread for double tonnage isn't worth it), they're pretty good. Their issue is just being very niche (short range specialist) while lasers are generalist all-purpose weapons that work at all ranges.

I'm still not sure about this...does the 5.9 spread mean CoF angle, or total spread at maximum range?

I feel like it's greater than 6M at max range, because the Atlas is ~18M, and will go from almost head to toe, but going by angle, that gives you a 27.8M CoF...which is most certainly not the case. (To get the size it should be 270*Sin(5.9) right? If it were the angle, that is)

Or did I just fail at Maths.

Ultimatum X, on 22 May 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:

I think a slight projectile increase would be a good place to start to nudging CUACs into better usability and then see what happens from there - although I'd actually like to see most ballistics get a projectile buff across the board.

I favour more than slight; make them travel ~ the same speed to damage ratio as IS ACs.

UAC20s going 1200M/s for 4 damage shells, AC5s at 1150 for 5 damage.


Without touching the burst, so same spread as it has how, simply easier to hit something with.
A starting point.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 22 May 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:

You need at least 2 IS AC 5s or UACs 5s to be more than a placebo as well. A single AC 10 is...OK, it often feels underwhelming - it also weighs almost as much as a CUAC 20.
...

I think that a single IS UAC/5 can be sorta alright, at least that's how it felt on my Shawk during the pre-Clan days. In the post-Clan world, my derpy ballistic Enforcer could pump out nice damage with its UAC/5 (only mounted 1), but of course it had quirks to help it...

Edited by FupDup, 22 May 2015 - 08:05 PM.

[MechWarrior849305]

FupDup, on 22 May 2015 - 07:25 PM, said:

Part of the issue is also that Clan lasers are so good, especially the ERML and LPL. Dat Clan LPL is just so sexy...

Watch for next nerf step to that precious C-LPL, cause it's the only heavy energy weapon left for Clans. 2sec C-ERLLs or superslow superhot C-ERPPCs are not worth a sh!t.
Ahh, I'm w8tin for C-Gauss nerf also, cause it's 3 tons lighter than IS. Strangely that IS crybabies whine about clan lazers and don't even mention Gauss, that pairs with those lazers in many builds

Edited by DuoAngel, 22 May 2015 - 09:19 PM.