99 replies to this topic

[Brody319]

Because ECM really only becomes a threat at long ranges and against missiles.
so why bring bap if you got an AC40 mech. or a Laser vomit mech?

sure you help your missile boat but...missiles are garbage.

[Boris The Spider]

Brody319, on 26 May 2015 - 12:45 AM, said:

Because ECM really only becomes a threat at long ranges and against missiles.
so why bring bap if you got an AC40 mech. or a Laser vomit mech?

sure you help your missile boat but...missiles are garbage.

Because to use AC20's you need to be about the range to counter ECM and I would rather brawl someone that is getting pummeled by LRM's than someone who isn't.

[Brody319]

Boris The Spider, on 26 May 2015 - 01:00 AM, said:

Because to use AC20's you need to be about the range to counter ECM and I would rather brawl someone that is getting pummeled by LRM's than someone who isn't.

I wouldn't want to give up the ton of ammo or the heat sink for my AC20/Laser Vomit, to counter ECM.

[Romeo Deluxe]

Brody319, on 26 May 2015 - 01:14 AM, said:

I wouldn't want to give up the ton of ammo or the heat sink for my AC20/Laser Vomit, to counter ECM.

So you can't be bothered to consider an iota of team play?

---just adding nearly every mech I own has BAP or CAP. Adds a bit to the XP and cbill rewards too.

Edited by Romeo Deluxe, 26 May 2015 - 01:31 AM.

[Brody319]

Romeo Deluxe, on 26 May 2015 - 01:28 AM, said:

So you can't be bothered to consider an iota of team play?

No, I often run to help my teammates if they need help, even if my mech is so damaged that I end up dying defending them.
but I have no love for LRM boats.

[Boris The Spider]

Brody319, on 26 May 2015 - 01:14 AM, said:

I wouldn't want to give up the ton of ammo or the heat sink for my AC20/Laser Vomit, to counter ECM.

Meh, enemies under missile bombardment are more likley to rout when pushed. Don't need as much ammo when your shooting them in the back

[TWIAFU]

Khobai, on 24 May 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

1) ECM stealths mechs at long-range

2) BAP only counters ECM at short-range

See the problem? Its a derpy system... If youre going to add an effective counter to ECM it needs to have the same range that ECM reduces detection by.

Forget option #3?

3. Hit the *&#*(% J key with ECM. Ta Da! Effective counter to ECM and has the same range.

See how easy that was.

[Alex Morgaine]

I wonder how lrm/ecm/AP/etc would have been if you could see but not targets of other allies. Would c3 have been put in? Would ecm just do as per book, and slow lock ons instead of being a bubble of OP? Would lrms be OP to hell and back or just like they are now, depending on cover when no ecm is in the fight?
Thoughts...

[Zolaz]

Only bad players dont use ECM, AMS or BAP on their builds. Most of ya'll have too many weapons on your mechs and over heat all the time anyways. AMS, BAP and ECM help out all those bad players on your team that you are trying to carry.

You are trying to carry arent you?

[Kenoshi]

Dumb question: So if let's say there are 2 ECM mechs and 2 enemy mechs with BAP within 240m...

Does this cancel ECM for ALL players in the area? Or does BAP only work for the mechs that have them, so ECM would still be on for both mechs with BAP since each BAP mech only cancels ONE ECM for itself?

If there is a better read up somewhere please let me know.

[Deathlike]

Kenoshi, on 26 May 2015 - 04:05 PM, said:

Dumb question: So if let's say there are 2 ECM mechs and 2 enemy mechs with BAP within 240m...

Does this cancel ECM for ALL players in the area? Or does BAP only work for the mechs that have them, so ECM would still be on for both mechs with BAP since each BAP mech only cancels ONE ECM for itself?

If there is a better read up somewhere please let me know.

Technically, but that assumes both ECM mechs are within both BAP mech radiuses.

For instance, two ECM mechs could be closer to 1 of the BAP mechs, but the other 1 may only be close to one of the ECM mechs.

IIRC, BAP counters the closest mech involved, so there's no assurance that the 1 BAP mech in the 2 ECM mech's radius would counter the mech that its teammate can't counter (it probably would work, but I'm not sure).

Edited by Deathlike, 26 May 2015 - 04:46 PM.

[Chagatay]

Zolaz, on 26 May 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

Only bad players dont use ECM, AMS or BAP on their builds. Most of ya'll have too many weapons on your mechs and over heat all the time anyways. AMS, BAP and ECM help out all those bad players on your team that you are trying to carry.

You are trying to carry arent you?

Inclined to agree but can't fault people for not doing so. I always pick one out of the support equipment family (cAP/BAP, AMS+1/2T, or ECM) for all mechs destined to be used in CW.

For Yolo queue, I find support equipment isn't as important as the ability to carry (weapons/HS). Generally a good place to run troll/experimental builds.

Summoner: Use Dual AMS or go with cAP (for streak builds)
Nova: Triple AMS (just because it can and it is the one thing that makes it unique)
Mist Lynx: Might as well just use the cAP in it....I mean you MUST take it.
Warhawk: Use AMS on Wub build, Use cAP on Missile/Laser Hybrid
Hellbringer: Use ECM
Kitfox: Use ECM
Stormcrow: Generally cAP
Timberwolf: Generally cAP

[Twisted 0ne]

The only problem with changing ecm to slowing locks instead of not allowing locks is the indirect fire. Basically the way targeting in the game works right now is every mech has a C3 unit. By TT rules, locks require LoS, Narc, Tag, or C3 data for obtaining locks, and indirect locks require Narc, Tag, or C3 data.

The game would be fine with ECM slowing locks instead of not allowing them if LRMs required Narc or Tag for non-LoS locks. That requires people with LRMs to be active and aggressive instead of just waiting for that lock from a teammate to rain hell, if people are not under ECM or caught out.

From a personal standpoint, I don't have an issue with either ECM or how LRMs operate now. Matchmaker should balance the number of ECM on each team to within 1-2 though if the current system won't be changing anytime soon in puglandia, though.

[Zolaz]

Chagatay, on 26 May 2015 - 04:45 PM, said:

Inclined to agree but can't fault people for not doing so. I always pick one out of the support equipment family (cAP/BAP, AMS+1/2T, or ECM) for all mechs destined to be used in CW.

For Yolo queue, I find support equipment isn't as important as the ability to carry (weapons/HS). Generally a good place to run troll/experimental builds.

Summoner: Use Dual AMS or go with cAP (for streak builds)
Nova: Triple AMS (just because it can and it is the one thing that makes it unique)
Mist Lynx: Might as well just use the cAP in it....I mean you MUST take it.
Warhawk: Use AMS on Wub build, Use cAP on Missile/Laser Hybrid
Hellbringer: Use ECM
Kitfox: Use ECM
Stormcrow: Generally cAP
Timberwolf: Generally cAP

You are so heavy on my back ...

[Lugin]

Twisted 0ne, on 26 May 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

By TT rules, locks require LoS, Narc, Tag, or C3 data for obtaining locks, and indirect locks require Narc, Tag, or C3 data.

WRONG. EVERY TIME.

Total Warfare, pg 111 said:

LRM Indirect Fire
Units armed with LRM-type weapons may fire those
missiles indirectly. Indirect fire allows a unit without a direct
line of sight to a target to attack that target, though a friendly
unit must have a valid line of sight to the target (this unit is
referred to as the spotter). An attacker with a valid LOS to a
target cannot make an LRM indirect fire attack, even if that
attack would have a better to-hit modifier.
Resolve LRM indirect fire attacks in the turn they are
launched. The base to-hit number is the firing unit’s Gunnery
Skill. Use the following modifiers:
• Range modifier based on the range between the target
and the firing unit, including minimum range modifiers;
• +1 for indirect fire;
• All standard modifiers for target movement;
• All standard modifiers for attacker movement and a
modifier for the spotter’s movement (infantry have no
attacker movement modifier for spotting);
• Terrain modifiers based on line of sight from the spotting
unit; this includes the +1 modifier if partial cover exists
between the spotting unit and the target. (Regardless
of whether partial cover shields the target from either
the spotting unit or the attacking unit, Damage Value
groupings from LRM indirect fire always strike the target
and not the partial cover, even if they hit a leg location;
see Partial Cover, p. 102.)
Finally, if the spotting unit makes any attacks in the turn
that it spots for another unit, apply a +1 modifier to all of the
spotting unit’s attacks, as well as a +1 modifier to the LRM
indirect fire attack. If the spotting unit makes no attacks, do
not apply these additional modifiers. The spotter can spot for
any number of attacking units to a single target, but it cannot
spot for multiple targets.

C3 only affects targeting bonus/penalty.

Total Warfare, pg 131 said:

C3 COMPUTER (MASTER/SLAVE)
The C3 computer system can link up to twelve ’Mechs
or vehicles together—utilizing a series of C3 Master and
C3 Slaves—in a communications network that will share
targeting information.
To make an attack using a C3 computer network, calculate
the to-hit number using the range to the target from the
networked unit nearest the target with line of sight. Use the
firing unit’s modifiers for movement, terrain effects, minimum
range and so on. A weapon attack using a C3 network must
conform to standard LOS restrictions and cannot fire beyond
its maximum range, though a well-placed lancemate may
allow the firing unit to use his weapon’s short-range to-hit
number at long range.
The C3 network itself has no maximum range, but only units
actually on the playing area can benefit from the network, and
the C3 Master (or C3 Masters if using a company-sized network)
must be on the playing area.
TAG: The C3 Master (but not the C3 Slaves) exactly duplicates
the function of target acquisition gear (see TAG; p. 142).
LRM Indirect Fire: C3-equipped units spotting targets for
or launching an LRM indirect fire attack use the LRM Indirect
Fire rules (see p. 111), and gain no benefit from a C3 network.
Minimum Ranges: Minimum range is always determined
from the attacking unit to the target.
Variable Damage Weapons: The range, to determine
the Damage Value of a Variable Damage Weapon, is always
determined from the attacking unit to the target.
Stealth Armor: Armor that inflicts range modifiers against
attacking units does not confuse a C3 network. While such
additional range modifiers apply to the nearest attacking
unit, they do not apply to any other units using the network
to attack. However, some such systems (notably the Stealth
Armor System, p. 142) include their own ECM system; in this
case, an attacking unit must be outside the effective range of
the ECM mounted on the target unit, or the attacker gets cut
off from the network.

Narc:

Total Warfare, pg 138-139 said:

NARC MISSILE BEACON
If a Narc missile beacon attack hits, the Narc pod is attached to
the target unit; the target’s player should still roll a hit location
to determine exactly where the pod attaches. If that location is
destroyed during any subsequent turn, the pod is also destroyed
and its effects are lost during the end of the phase in which
the location was destroyed.
In all following combat phases, any unit attacking with
Narc-equipped missiles adds +2 to the result of the roll on
the Cluster Hits Table. This modifier remains in effect for the
targeted unit throughout the rest of the battle.
Other Narc pods attached to a target have no additional
effect. Other Narc beacons in the target hex do not confuse
Narc-guided missiles. The Narc system can be used to aid
narc-equipped SRM and LRM missile attacks, but does not
affect attacks made with special munitions or launchers.
Critical Hits: Exploding Narc ammo causes 2 points of
damage per pod.
Buildings: Narc pods cannot be fired into or inside
buildings.
ECM: Narc-guided missiles function like conventional
missiles if the narc pod they are homing in on is within the
“bubble” of an active enemy ECM suite; they do not receive
the +2 modifier when rolling on the Cluster Hits Table (See
ECM Suite, p. 134).
Indirect LRM Fire: Once a Narc pod is attached to a target,
all Narc-equipped missiles may be fired indirectly at a target
without a spotter; all other standard modifiers for Indirect
LRM fire apply (see p. 111). In addition, if used in this manner,
the Narc-equipped missiles lose their +2 modifier to the roll
result on the Cluster Hits Table.
Infantry: A Narc missile beacon cannot be used to attack
infantry.

TL;DR: C3 gives no benefit, and is not required. Narc as implemented is pretty much how it is supposed to be.

Also, TAG is for designating artillery targets. The only LRMs it works with are Semi-Guided, which only show up in 3057.

Edited by Lugin, 26 May 2015 - 08:30 PM.

[Serpieri]

Night Thastus, on 24 May 2015 - 01:52 PM, said:

Also, BAP only counters 1 ECM for the mech YOU are currently targeting, and just for you. It doesn't counter it for everyone else.
ECM is a bubble that affects teammates in a radius. BAP therefore can never truly compete. Even in a 12 man, and everyone has BAP, it's not perfect.

Since BAP was the counter to ECM in Battletech - simple solution buff it to the same level as MWO ECM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Since BAP was the counter to ECM in Battletech - simple solution buff it to the same level as MWO ECM.

bap didnt counter ECM in battletech. it was the opposite.

bap being a counter to ECM is from mechwarrior 4 not battletech. but PGI implemented it as a remedial short-range hard counter instead of the intelligent soft counter it was in MW4

[YueFei]

TWIAFU, on 26 May 2015 - 02:27 AM, said:

Forget option #3?

3. Hit the *&#*(% J key with ECM. Ta Da! Effective counter to ECM and has the same range.

See how easy that was.

Nope. Doesn't address his scenario, which is long range.

Enemy under ECM at 500 meters. You can't target them. You can see them and shoot them, but you can't coordinate focus fire ("Hit Charlie!") or see the health of the enemies, or find damaged sections.

Using Counter-ECM would require closing to within 180 meters.

Today I used a teammate's ECM to hide the fact that I was super hurt. The enemy had been hitting me earlier. Had it not been for ECM they probably would've sooner realized how hurt I was and picked me off much more quickly.

ECM isn't supposed to work that way, hiding an entire team's health like that.

[Mcgral18]

YueFei, on 27 May 2015 - 12:07 AM, said:

ECM isn't supposed to work that way, hiding an entire team's health like that.

It's not supposed to do much aside from turning off Tech 2 stuff.

In MWO, you are required to use Tech 2 stuff to break through ECM.

[TWIAFU]

Brody319, on 26 May 2015 - 01:14 AM, said:

I wouldn't want to give up the ton of ammo or the heat sink for my AC20/Laser Vomit, to counter ECM.

And that is why solo pugs get rolfstomped over and over and over.