41 replies to this topic

[CocoaJin]

aniviron, on 25 May 2015 - 08:45 PM, said:

I thought the issue was HSR-related? I feel like we heard something about that in one of the town halls.

I'm not sure how HSR would factor into this...but I'm sure about the anti-pop tart aspect and the engine limitation stuff.

[Deathlike]

aniviron, on 25 May 2015 - 08:45 PM, said:

I thought the issue was HSR-related? I feel like we heard something about that in one of the town halls.

They may have mentioned that (of course, that was the same deal with destructible terrain and objects), so as far as I'm concerned, it was a position at the time.

[Almond Brown]

Alistair Winter, on 25 May 2015 - 03:09 PM, said:

Didn't even MW2 have this? Or MW2:Mercs? I seem to remember it predated MW4.

Check your Maps lads. MWO has varying Gravity's listed on some Maps.

If what you want is => 5g swings, sorry you are SOL though.

Edited by Almond Brown, 26 May 2015 - 10:03 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Almond Brown, on 26 May 2015 - 10:02 AM, said:

Check your Maps lads. MWO has varying Gravity's on some Maps.

If what you want is => 5g swings, sorry you are SOL though.

Uh, it's clear that the actual gravity on those maps is nowhere near what PGI is leading us to believe.

So...

[Mcgral18]

Almond Brown, on 26 May 2015 - 10:02 AM, said:

Check your Maps lads. MWO has varying Gravity's listed on some Maps.

If what you want is => 5g swings, sorry you are SOL though.

Listed yes, but gravity is not a variable in MWO. It's always static, at that ~3-4g.

That number does absolutely nothing.

[Almond Brown]

Alistair Winter, on 26 May 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

Uh, it's clear that the actual gravity on those maps is nowhere near what PGI is leading us to believe.

So...

Well OK then. Can we also take the Math that says MWO is running at 3g, across the board, as gospel, or with Salt?

Has PGI ever stated it is 3g, or is it also a Salt based thing?

Mcgral18, on 26 May 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

Listed yes, but gravity is not a variable in MWO. It's always static, at that ~3-4g.

That number does absolutely nothing.

So is it 3 or 4g? That would make a HUGE difference in over-all Mech performance right. What did PGI say it was?

[Mcgral18]

Almond Brown, on 26 May 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

So is it 3 or 4g? That would make a HUGE difference in over-all Mech performance right. What did PGI say it was?

PGI has never made a statement on it; just that changing gravity to not be inflated would require changing animations because things would look funny.

Maths tells you the gravity, using the Z axis and speed.

[Mcgral18]

Anyways, this is the closest thing I've found to them saying gravity is high, but not how high.

http://pastebin.com/aLCzp4fs

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mcgral18, on 26 May 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

http://pastebin.com/aLCzp4fs

In this chat, Paul not understanding the very serious flaws in his arguments, surprise.

[Yokaiko]

Indeed, I'm amazed.

[CocoaJin]

WM Quicksilver, on 26 May 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

In this chat, Paul not understanding the very serious flaws in his arguments, surprise.

Which is?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

CocoaJin, on 26 May 2015 - 03:47 PM, said:

Which is?

His problem was two-fold:

• That somehow longer exposure time is a two way street, anyone who has played the poke game at a higher level of play knows this not to be the case. There is a reason the RVN-2/4X and WVR-6K are so great for poking, and it is a similar reason as to why poptarts were good, they can minimize their exposure time (and potential for incoming damage) and still do significant damage thanks to their duration buffs. Krivvan tried to explain this but to no avail.
  
• The floatier the jump jets, the better high mounts are. This is faulty because the difference between high mounts and low mounts is exacerbated the higher gravity is. Basically, it comes down to ratios, the longer the minimum exposure time is, the less the difference between high mounts and lower mounts exposure times matter.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 26 May 2015 - 04:24 PM.

[Mcgral18]

I've also realized only the Hopper 5J can do the Summoner test, since the others only have 4 JJs available, same as the Phract.

So, that means 49 armour due to 11 from the quirk.

Testing procedure is going into the Forest Colony lake, find a flat line, then just start jumping. Go full burn, fall (should net you ~-44M/s per jump) and check how many jumps it takes to deplete that armour.

If it's ~30, like the Cataphract, you'll have a very accurate answer. Since the +37 structure took 19 jumps, and the +15 took 25.


I guess I'll also do the Lynxes tomorrow.

Edited by Mcgral18, 27 May 2015 - 12:52 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Myth Lynx doesn't do that testing method very well...-68 M/s ruins legs.

They both took 3 jumps, but with only a 6 structure difference, you wouldn't expect much damage. However, the damage % was different for each leg set.

One was 100-93%-86%
Other was 100-94-88%

6 is the largest difference, even the $ legs have 12 structure.


I will however get on the 30 tonners. Spider 5D has no leg structure, Cute Fox has 28.


That should be a stark difference.

Edited by Mcgral18, 27 May 2015 - 10:19 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Spider 5D
8 jumps
62M/s

Cute Fox
5 jumps
61M/s


That's pretty telling.
Structure, without a doubt, affects fall damage.

[LordMelvin]

stjobe, on 25 May 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

Interestingly enough, these numbers show us how way out of whack the MWO physics is; for something to reach 33 m/s (119 kph) in free fall, it needs to fall from 56 meters up. To reach 46 m/s (165 kph) it needs to fall from 108 meters.

Falling from 108 meters takes 4.7 seconds in 1 gravity.

In 3 gravities, however, a fall from just 16.5 meters (which takes 1 second) ends up with a falling speed at impact of... drumroll please... 33 m/s.

A fall from 28 meters in a 3 g environment makes for an impact speed of 46 m/s, and takes 1.4 seconds.

So it would seem MWO gravity is roughly 33 m/s² (or about 3g) and the fall speed limits are simply
* A fall of 1.4 seconds for lights (46 m/s)
* 1.2 seconds for mediums (39 m/s)
* 1.1 seconds for heavies (35 m/s)
* 1 second for assaults (33 m/s)

Try it out for yourself with this free fall calculator.

TL;DR: MWO gravity is three times Earth gravity.

This also explains why JJs feel weak and hover-y. It takes 1/2-3/4 of your fuel to get any sort of lift (unless you're a light mech with 6-12 JJs), and you come crashing back to earth like you've got rubber bands wrapped around your ankles.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 27 May 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

Spider 5D
8 jumps
62M/s

Cute Fox
5 jumps
61M/s


That's pretty telling.
Structure, without a doubt, affects fall damage.

Is it fair or unfair to say that it affects fall damage negatively to have more Internal Structure quirks?

Spiders jump a lot, and they have no quirks for the legs.

Kitfoxes have been legged often... although it doesn't sound so receptive to the fall damage either.

I'm just seeing if conclusions can be drawn from this info.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 27 May 2015 - 01:47 PM, said:

Is it fair or unfair to say that it affects fall damage negatively to have more Internal Structure quirks?

Spiders jump a lot, and they have no quirks for the legs.

Kitfoxes have been legged often... although it doesn't sound so receptive to the fall damage either.

I'm just seeing if conclusions can be drawn from this info.

I couldn't say.

The spider has 42 IS+A

While the Cute Fox has 70IS+A. (28 quirked with the S legs, 10-12(?) per leg for the others)


That's a significant increase. The fall damage (from max height) was inflicting ~3 damage for the Spider and 5.5 for the Kit Fox.


I'd say, still worth it. Generally, you don't fall very much, especially with jumping mechs since you can generally feather you fall.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 27 May 2015 - 01:52 PM, said:

I couldn't say.

The spider has 42 IS+A

While the Cute Fox has 70IS+A. (28 quirked with the S legs, 10-12(?) per leg for the others)


That's a significant increase. The fall damage (from max height) was inflicting ~3 damage for the Spider and 5.5 for the Kit Fox.


I'd say, still worth it. Generally, you don't fall very much, especially with jumping mechs since you can generally feather you fall.

Hm.

I think that the leg armoring quirks need to scale in such a way that there's a "fair distribution" between Internal Structure quirk buffs and External Armor quirk bonus... because I'm still thinking that Mist Lynx-D's leg omnipods would make out like a bandit if you didn't care about the other types of buffs.

I guess the question is really... can we graph the data in a scale (since this is all linear) to see where there's a falloff between these known facts?

Edited by Deathlike, 27 May 2015 - 02:10 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 27 May 2015 - 02:10 PM, said:

Hm.

I think that the leg armoring quirks need to scale in such a way that there's a "fair distribution" between Internal Structure quirk buffs and External Armor quirk bonus... because I'm still thinking that Mist Lynx-D's leg omnipods would make out like a bandit if you didn't care about the other types of buffs.

I guess the question is really... can we graph the data in a scale (since this is all linear) to see where there's a falloff between these known facts?

The numbers aren't exactly concrete, nor are the jumps. They will vary a few meters(or feet?) as well as M/s, so that's a different decimal of damage at the very least.


I suppose using the formula to calculate the damage is probably the most effective way.

• How much damage is determined by it's fall velocity and the weight class of the falling 'Mech.
  
• Light 'Mechs = (Internal Structure Health * 1.9) * 0.04

So, 14 structure on the Spider.

14*1.9*0.04=1.064

Here comes the issue...

Quote

The faster the Spider hits the ground, a scalar multiplier is added to this base damage. This scaling happens, for Light 'Mechs at 38 ft/s. So any impact speeds of 30-38ft/s will do 1.12 damage to each of the Spider's legs.

We'd need those multipliers to calculate damage. Would they be in the .XML?



A solution would be to simply grab the base weight class, unquirked, structure to start that calculation with. That would require some coding, but nothing too in depth.


The Myth Lynx D would actually take just as much damage as most, since it also has 12 structure, on top of 6 armour.

Better off, but not greatly. Well, I suppose that describes the chassis as a whole pretty well, with the quirks.

Edited by Mcgral18, 27 May 2015 - 02:32 PM.