74 replies to this topic

[KodiakGW]

masCh, on 26 May 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

Yes I agree. But I thought I'd at least notify PGI that NPE is lacking in this game.

Yep. But, there have already been numerious threads already stating this fact. Most of them from vets who can't get friends to play it more than a week. Tons of suggestions have been made. Almost none have been followed through. Even their Mechlab Training Video (Main Site -> Game -> Training Grounds) is severely out of date.

[masCh]

Speccing a character is only relevant if you want to min/max a character.

Forming a weapon-group is a core mechanic of the game as it involves ranges a weapon can do damage at, and also relates to heat management which is also a core mechanic of MW.

The Cadet Training proposal above does not teach you how to min/max your game. It only makes you aware of the important parameters that should be in your consideration when you launch into the multiplayer side of the game for the first time, so that it does not ruin your experience (getting abused by teammates, etc).

[masCh]

KodiakGW, on 26 May 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

Yep. But, there have already been numerious threads already stating this fact. Most of them from vets who can't get friends to play it more than a week. Tons of suggestions have been made. Almost none have been followed through. Even their Mechlab Training Video (Main Site -> Game -> Training Grounds) is severely out of date.

Ok, that made me sad.

[Sarlic]

http://mwomercs.com/...tely-attention/

[masCh]

Sarlic, on 26 May 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...tely-attention/

That is brilliant Sarlic, I think the New Player Experience should take both of these into account.

Your "Sarlic's Idea" is the overall concept, and my original post would go under this section of your post:

Quote

But we need a more usefull combat tutorial in-game. Not stationary mechs. But a true combat simulator to simulate certain combat situations. Moving mechs. And a small comic video about the background of Mechwarrior. How did Mechwarrior and all started? Make it short.

Edited by masCh, 26 May 2015 - 10:03 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

masCh, on 26 May 2015 - 09:45 AM, said:

Speccing a character is only relevant if you want to min/max a character.

Forming a weapon-group is a core mechanic of the game as it involves ranges a weapon can do damage at, and also relates to heat management which is also a core mechanic of MW.

The Cadet Training proposal above does not teach you how to min/max your game. It only makes you aware of the important parameters that should be in your consideration when you launch into the multiplayer side of the game for the first time, so that it does not ruin your experience (getting abused by teammates, etc).

A 15 minute bootcamp would be all thats needed. A Preprogrammed radio chatter from a Senior NCO that tells you what keys... kinda like in the beginning of Neverwinter.

[Lostdragon]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 May 2015 - 09:27 AM, said:

I didn't know SoCom had giant Space hamsters in it?

Took me a few days to figure out how to group my weapons. Are you telling me that is worse than getting to 20th lvl only to find out I didn't spec My Jedi Guardian right and have to start over? I don't think there is a game out that I haven't had to respec my character during the first time through.

Cause its not complicated, its just a little different.

Maybe it's not complicated to someone who has been playing the game for a few years, but every person I've tried to get into MWO has considered it to be complicated. One of my best friends has been playing FPS games at a competitive level since Goldeneye. I remember the first time we played that game, we both told each other we were pretty good and we did a first to 10 death match. He beat me 10-1 and told me I'd done well because most people can't kill him. I've seen him constantly get accused of hacking in COD and other FPS games because he has amazing reflexes and almost seems to have a sixth sense when it comes to how to win.

This guys played MWO with me for less than an hour because the NPE is really bad and does a terrible job of explaining the nuances of how to be successful. I'm confident if he had stuck around for a while to learn the ins and outs of the game he'd be one of the top players in the game now. He didn't though, because he got frustrated because there are a lot of aspects of this game that are not necessarily intuitive or easy to learn even if you are an experienced gamer. The basics alone are way different than your typical modern game and the advanced tactics are in a league of their own.

[masCh]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 May 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:

"Forming a weapon-group is a core mechanic of the game as it involves ranges a weapon can do damage at, and also relates to heat management which is also a core mechanic of MW."

A 15 minute bootcamp would be all thats needed.

The proposed NPE would complete that part of the Cadet Training Program in less than 2 mins.

Edited by masCh, 26 May 2015 - 10:30 AM.

[Green Mamba]

Game is completely Ready for Steam as is. It will be fine.I am prepared to give reviews on Par level that some of the Elder Scrolls RP Games,original Diablo and Baldur's Gate received when they were released .It may even Surpass those in quality

[Kdogg788]

I really like this idea on introducing new players to the game. It's well thought out and PGI would do well to include it. Not all of us were introduced to Battletech back in 1987 Joe. I played the original TT game back in the day as you likely did too and know the backstory but someone coming in for the first time would have no clue, especially as MWO includes very little universe related content beside using the mechs. On top of this, PGI buries all of the important game rules in the forums. Example: Ask me how TAG, NARC, Artemis, LOS, and ECM stack on different situations and I seriously couldn't tell you. They don't even tell you about weapon ranges in much detail.

-k

[Kristov Kerensky]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 May 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

Let me see if I have this right.

WASD for movement

Number buttons or Mouse buttons for attacking.

M for Map

Other than torso twisting MW:O isn't that different from other computer games I've played. I haven't played other shooters but I'd guess z is zoom and there is a key for night/low light vision too.

Joe, you'd be amazed how many people have been playing video games for years but never used WASD as it's used in MWO. Most MMOs you just point and click to move somewhere, and quite a few people have never actually played a FPS style game, so it's really confusing for them. Add in the torso twist factor and forget it. I've spectated many people who can't figure out that facing and direction of travel are not the same thing in MWO, some of those people have Founders tags, so...

New players MAY have some background in FPS games, most won't however, so the tutorial needs to cover the basics from the ground up with the assumption that the new player has no effing clue how to do anything in a video game. Yeah, people with a clue will find it a bit annoying, but even they will quickly start paying attention when they find out that facing and direction of travel are different things, as that's only something you see in a tank based game. WoT players will be familiar with it, so will SOME of the Battlefield and Call of Duty players, but even among the BF/CoD group, actually using armor isn't a real common thing, many haven't done it.

Combine that with the weapons, how they work, the fact that RANGE means something, that you don't switch from your M4 to your M92 to your knife, yeah, it confuses people. My grandson has watched me play MWO, he thought it looked fun and easy enough, so I let him try it out, he's pretty good at CoD, so I figured, what the hell, he's smart, he'll learn quickly... He quickly realized that he didn't have a clue, watching me didn't teach him a thing about what I was actually DOING, so he couldn't figure out how to get his facing to match his direction of travel, ranges of the weapons were totally mind boggling to him(what do you mean, out of range grandpa, I can SEE him!) and not actually switching weapons..yeah, he was lost real fast and hasn't wanted to play since.

MWO is NOT like your standard FPS games, there's a lot more going on then most of us realize, especially those of us who've been playing MW or tank games for decades now. And that's just movement and basic combat, that's not even starting to delve into the setup of a Mech and all the stuff that's involved there. Yeah, it's easy to us, I don't even bother with Smurfy because why would I? I know what the weapons do, I know how the interactions and synergy between this and that weapon system work already, I've been dealing with them through HOW many different MW titles, MechCommander titles, BTech itself. But to the new player who's never played BTech or anything based on it, it's confusing as hell and there's nothing ingame to help them figure it out.

[masCh]

I am glad both of you mentioned weapon ranges.

This is something you can witness all the time when spectating another player - and this is also why I envisioned how it could be an important part of the Cadet Training proposal as well. A line or two by the Training Officer about weapon min range and weapon max range with practice targets would be enough to make the Cadet aware of this mechanic in the MW universe. Of course this was only one way of teaching the new player about weapon ranges, PGI might have better ideas than what I have described.

Edited by masCh, 26 May 2015 - 10:58 AM.

[Shae Starfyre]

Not everyone is the same.

Took me a week of never having played this game to get the handle on the controls, and about another week or two to read, ask questions, etc., and that was about it. Then read patch notes and other portions of this forum (yes there is more info in this forums than General).

9 years later, I still haven't skilled up to pilot a Titan in Eve let alone be able to afford one (Learning Curve my Atlai junk).

Either you want to learn it or you don't; those who do not stick around are, frankly and honestly, not interested in learning and a lot can be said about those who fail to want to adapt, but that's another story.

I do not think this is attributed to a lack of tutorial but a difference in character (patience and aptitude versus lack-there-of) and gaming norms (semi-sim versus run-n-gun).

I have had very intelligent people try this game, and it just lacked appeal; one, who was a software developer said he couldn't get the hang of the torso versus leg movement. Was this just lack of motor skills, laziness, or because there was no tutorial... I think not. It was just not his cup of tea once we really started talking. He was more of EverQuest/DND kind of person.

If you want to learn it you will and no tutorial will change that if you don't want to learn it.

So much energy wasted.

[Xetelian]

As a founder who went from building http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5a6c2562abbff66

Doing maybe 100 damage in a match if I was lucky.

I didn't know that putting every possible weapon on a mech wasn't the best idea, I didn't know that going 35kph was a bad idea.
All I knew was mechs took parts and I get the most expensive parts on my mech so it must be good.


The nuances of building and piloting are very steep for new comers.

They need to learn about armor distribution because so many stock/prime variants come with very little.

They need to learn so much in such a short amount of time to be anything remotely useful for a team.

[Shae Starfyre]

Xetelian, on 26 May 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

As a founder who went from building http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5a6c2562abbff66

Doing maybe 100 damage in a match if I was lucky.

I didn't know that putting every possible weapon on a mech wasn't the best idea, I didn't know that going 35kph was a bad idea.
All I knew was mechs took parts and I get the most expensive parts on my mech so it must be good.


The nuances of building and piloting are very steep for new comers.

They need to learn about armor distribution because so many stock/prime variants come with very little.

They need to learn so much in such a short amount of time to be anything remotely useful for a team.

If the goal is to groom competative players out the gate then they might has well put all the energy into a PVE content where a little bit of everything is introduced through mission-style objectives that touch on every aspect rather than 'JUST' a tutorial.

[Pjwned]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 May 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

Let me see if I have this right.

WASD for movement

Number buttons or Mouse buttons for attacking.

M for Map

Other than torso twisting MW:O isn't that different from other computer games I've played. I haven't played other shooters but I'd guess z is zoom and there is a key for night/low light vision too.

Torso twisting is a pretty significant difference from most shooters though, and there aren't many games with the kind of build freedom like there is in MWO (which is one of few reasons I stick around) so even if you do get used to the controls that build freedom also unfortunately means that you have a lot of room to make a pretty terrible build too.

It also just plays a lot differently than most other games because you don't see many other games where all your weapons are active at once and you need to set weapon groups, you don't see many other games where your vehicle is made of separate components and they all have different health values and equipment inside them and all that, you don't tend to see very many games with mechanics like weapon heat generation or if there is something like that it only affects 1 weapon system at a time, etc...

There's lots of stuff that makes MWO rather unique from most other games, but that also means there's lots of stuff to potentially make people confused or discouraged, and if things aren't explained properly and you're thrown to the wolves on top of immediately dealing with a crappy grindfest (because the new player experience sucks) then unfortunately chances are much greater that people will become confused and/or discouraged and quit.

Edited by Pjwned, 27 May 2015 - 09:55 AM.

[TheArisen]

http://mwomercs.com/...nd-new-players/

This thread is about tutorial rewards.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Aphoticus, not everyone takes the time to read forums and look up information outside of the game interface, majority of the playerbase for ANY game don't do this actually, which is why tutorials are so common, even the old MW games had tutorials before you actually started playing the game, because many of the things done in MW titles simply don't exist in other games.

Armor games, where you drive tanks and the like, you don't actually CONFIGURE the vehicles, so you may understand how to torso twist, but you don't understand configuring the Mech, which is a huge thing in the end. And that's not covered in MWO at all currently.

Yes, the tutorial needs to be a PvE deal, so the new player can learn to use a Mech and configure a Mech, at least basically, before they ever have to face a live breathing human opponent.

[masCh]

It can even be a PVE with just dummy enemies with no AI.

I forgot to include about arm/leg/torso components in the OP, that could be taught when the player goes against the first Catapult. The instructor can instruct to shoot arm/legs to disable specific weapons or slow the enemy down and commend the player as each objective is completed.

[Lostdragon]

Some other difficult aspects of the game to master: there are two target reticles for torso and arm mounted weapons, when to turn armlock on/off, how ECM/BAP/NARC and missile locks all work together, and, of course, ghost heat. None of those are really intuitive at all and if you don't have someone to explain it to you or you don't look it up on the forums you are going to be frustrated.