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Back To Me Roots - A Clan Player's Trip Down Grasshopper Lane


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#21 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 04:01 PM

View PostcSand, on 26 May 2015 - 03:55 PM, said:


Well, eventually the IS is supposed to get their version of the ER Medium

as it stands right now... if you want that, go with clams!

They may not have ghost heat but they are hot as balls anyways... that alpha will shut em down in no time at all. Meanwhile you can waltz up and AC20 those lasers right off the smug little test tube faces :D

Anyways, if you're in range of the clan ER medium, that means they are in range of some equally dealy IS weapons


Yes Clan lasers are hotter, BUT Clans can fit a lot more heat sinks due to the whole 2 slot thing and 7-slot FF/Endo where applicable... so it kind of evens out.

Anyways, my point was, you are more limited in your engagement range vs Clan competitors. If you want the same damage output, you have to use some combination of LL/LPL and ML in order to avoid ghost heat, and those MLs are only good until about 300-350m before their damage starts to get pretty insignificant.

I'm not trying to complain that hard though.. but that is just why I am hoping for some slight range buffs on the ground-bound energy boat that is the Black Knight.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 26 May 2015 - 04:03 PM.


#22 cSand

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 04:03 PM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 26 May 2015 - 04:01 PM, said:


Yes Clan lasers are hotter, BUT Clans can fit a lot more heat sinks due to the whole 2 slot thing and 7-slot FF/Endo where applicable... so it kind of evens out.

Anyways, my point was, you are more limited in your engagement range vs Clan competitors. If you want the same damage output, you have to use some combination of LL/LPL and ML in order to avoid ghost heat, and those MLs are only good until about 300-350m before their damage starts to get pretty insignificant.


I am curious to see the IS ERmediums when they arrive... wonder what we'll be looking at for range/heat

#23 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 04:05 PM

View PostcSand, on 26 May 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:


I am curious to see the IS ERmediums when they arrive... wonder what we'll be looking at for range/heat


I'm guessing something like 360 m range, 5 heat, 1-1.05 s duration... and don't forget, just 5 damage, not the 7 the Clans get.

We don't get that until 3058 though, its only 3052

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 26 May 2015 - 04:06 PM.


#24 cSand

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 04:13 PM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 26 May 2015 - 04:05 PM, said:


I'm guessing something like 360 m range, 5 heat, 1-1.05 s duration... and don't forget, just 5 damage, not the 7 the Clans get.

We don't get that until 3058 though, its only 3052


I wish they'd just toss the timeline out TBH, or bump it up.

So I can get my IS Rakshasa, and IS large-streak-packs :D

#25 Tiamat of the Sea

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 04:14 PM

View Post1453 R, on 26 May 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

Sixth thing I noticed – six jump jets do, in fact, jump. Turns out that people who equip two jump jets and then complain that all jets are worthless should probably equip more jump jets. I still feel like jet acceleration is too slow overall and especially on liftoff, but after that initial hovery hitch, I feel like the jets work all right. We just need to adjust the formula some so that all the classic three-jet jumpers aren’t quite so piggish in the air. And also adjust the forums so that people stop freaking taking two jets on their ‘Mechs and then complain they can’t jump. My GRH jumps just fine. It doesn’t fly, though at six jets I kinda wish it would, but it does in fact jump.


This needs so much emphasizing. SO BLOODY MUCH.

Especially when a lot of the stuff people like to reference- including articles on Metamechs- is reliant on outdated quirks or on concepts like 'one jump jet is all you need'. The game has changed.

Adapt.

Survive.

#26 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 04:16 PM

View PostQuickdraw Crobat, on 26 May 2015 - 04:14 PM, said:


This needs so much emphasizing. SO BLOODY MUCH.

Especially when a lot of the stuff people like to reference- including articles on Metamechs- is reliant on outdated quirks or on concepts like 'one jump jet is all you need'. The game has changed.

Adapt.

Survive.


The Highlander may have a thing or two to say about that!

#27 cSand

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 04:17 PM

View PostQuickdraw Crobat, on 26 May 2015 - 04:14 PM, said:


This needs so much emphasizing. SO BLOODY MUCH.

Especially when a lot of the stuff people like to reference- including articles on Metamechs- is reliant on outdated quirks or on concepts like 'one jump jet is all you need'. The game has changed.

Adapt.

Survive.


There are not enough like buttons here for this


I've said it before many times, taking a couple JJs is not the way to get good lift. I pack 4-6 in my QKDs and they fly quite nicely. Only 2 in my IV-4 but... I use it differently.

Got 6 JJs in my GHR 5J and it hops like a...........






grasshopper


That said as gas guzzler pointed out there are some mechs that could use a bit of a boost. Even max JJs on a HGN seems sluggish. But the poptart boogeyman was scaring all the little ones so he had to be put to bed

Edited by cSand, 26 May 2015 - 04:18 PM.


#28 1453 R

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 04:24 PM

View PostUltimatum X, on 26 May 2015 - 03:54 PM, said:

Pretty much spot on, except this.





Here is your build: GRH-5J

Here is a build that competes directly in that range bracket, with similar beam times (average), overall alpha potential, DPS, etc.

HBR-WUBS



When people stop looking at the names of the weapons, and being fooled by them and instead start comparing only ranges, damage and heat - then they will stop thinking that clan builds are "too hot".


If the Summoner had like one more Energy hardpoint - I would have built it on that.


Yeah, which is actually more what my modernizing Clan fleet looks like - less OMGBEAMZ crazed alpha spikes and more a moderate number of beams with a stupidly high number of DHS.

You can get cool-running Clan builds, but they don't tend to have the bleeding-insanity spike alphas that get forumites' blood boiling and set crowds to screaming 'OP!'. Now don't get me wrong, I do feel that Clan beams in general still need some adjustments, but after this little experiment in my Grasshoppers, I really do want to stress the word 'adjustments'. The sky is not falling, one side is not madly pwnooblerating the other, things are generally closer to okay than not, and there's fun to be had on both sides of the tech divide, against both sides of the tech divide.

Also your Lolbringer has no ECM and is thus sad. It is a Sadbringer. You should give it ECM and make it happy again.

#29 Ultimax

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 04:33 PM

View Post1453 R, on 26 May 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

Yeah, which is actually more what my modernizing Clan fleet looks like - less OMGBEAMZ crazed alpha spikes and more a moderate number of beams with a stupidly high number of DHS.

You can get cool-running Clan builds, but they don't tend to have the bleeding-insanity spike alphas


This is the point.


You can build a Clan mech to run super cool with equivalent IS style alphas (barring a few very short ranged outliers).

You can build a clan mech with a humongous alpha or superior range, or both - and then yes it will run "hotter" because you are doing more damage.




View Post1453 R, on 26 May 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

Also your Lolbringer has no ECM and is thus sad. It is a Sadbringer. You should give it ECM and make it happy again.



I was demonstrating potential, compare that HBR to a 5SS - I'll be here when you get back.

#30 1453 R

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 04:46 PM

I don't particularly care for 'demonstrating potential' designs that ignore realities of the game in order to make their point.

Would you pilot that particular Hellbringer if the pride of your unit was on the line? Heh, I'm fairly sure the production version would include a sixth cMPL in that arm and also ECM, at the cost of three DHS. Still ferocious, and in fact a design I might well try when I get off work, but more practical than the 'proof your argument is invalid' model.

After all, the production ver. Lolbringer still has better Smurfy heat values than my GHR and is actually a design you'd see on the field, which does a much better job of proving your point.

I get that the Clans get that choice between overhot Super-Alphas and more sustainable, more moderate damage and the Sphere, as a general rule, does not, but the real point of me writing this thread up was that in practice it doesn't matter nearly as much as a whole lotta people constantly shriek that it does. Now, I do admit that I'm a strict Puglandia player who has never and likely will never set foot into the teeth-grinding horror that is CW, and I'm also probably a total scrublord grognard by the standards people try to apply to situations like this...but the fact does, in fact, remain.

I'm as close to a 'pure Clan' player as a guy can get without selling off his entire IS stable, and despite that I had fun in my Grasshoppers. Not only did I have fun, but I did not feel especially weak or useless, or that my machine was a bitter disappointment and I could've done OH SO MUCH BETTAHZ in a Clan 'Mech. Matter of fact, after this experiment with my GHRs I went back to my Summoners and tried to apply lessons learned there, only to discover that while Summoners are by no means as awful as everyone makes them out to be, they cannot do what my GHRs did. My stacked-pair cLPL and cMPL Summoner was not as effective in that role as my GHR-5J was.

If I can have fun and not feel like a putz in a Spheroid 'Mech most players seem to consider second-rate at best, why can't anyone else?

#31 Y E O N N E

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 05:29 PM

View Post1453 R, on 26 May 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

Yeah, which is actually more what my modernizing Clan fleet looks like - less OMGBEAMZ crazed alpha spikes and more a moderate number of beams with a stupidly high number of DHS.

You can get cool-running Clan builds, but they don't tend to have the bleeding-insanity spike alphas that get forumites' blood boiling and set crowds to screaming 'OP!'. Now don't get me wrong, I do feel that Clan beams in general still need some adjustments, but after this little experiment in my Grasshoppers, I really do want to stress the word 'adjustments'. The sky is not falling, one side is not madly pwnooblerating the other, things are generally closer to okay than not, and there's fun to be had on both sides of the tech divide, against both sides of the tech divide.

Also your Lolbringer has no ECM and is thus sad. It is a Sadbringer. You should give it ECM and make it happy again.


First off, fun read and I tend to agree with your conclusions. Whenever I write about balance, I'm operating under the assumption that everybody knows it's pretty close already and am concerned primarily with closing the remaining gaps. Some of those gaps (like the relationships between range and damage or range and weight) cannot be closed without some butchering of Clan equipment, ridiculous buffs to current IS equipment, or the introduction of the more advanced IS gear. In current regular matches, though, quirked IS stuff is pretty decent if you use 'Mechs without gimped geometry and hit-boxes. I rack up huge numbers in my BJ-1X (which you should definitely try running if you haven't already), It can actually out-gun many Clan machines by smart use of terrain with its superlative hard-point placement and top speed. It runs cool even with a STD 280. I don't even run it that often any more precisely because it's so expertly effective; I tend to stick with the more challenging BJ-3 and BJ-1DC. So, yeah, claims of "Clans OP!" tend to be greatly exaggerated.

At any rate, I quote the post above to emphasize something I've been saying since the very first adjustment to Clan lasers; they only run hot if you make them run hot. That is, if you give it a ridiculous ranged alpha that the IS can't typically hope to obtain without running a super heavy and slow machine, then yes, it will spike to 98%. That was the point: you trade on heat to get sheer damage. A good laser alpha on the Inner Sphere side starts at 30 points and ends around 40. That damage range gives you the best balance between reach, heat, and damage without making tremendous sacrifices in speed, armor, or engine durability and can be mounted on almost any 'Mech. But it seems Clan players are not satisfied with lasers alphas between 30 and 40 points. They want 50, 60, 70 points and they can mount it easily, which is why they got smacked with higher heat and super long duration on that first go-around. It's why I get frustrated when certain parties complain about the general heat characteristics on Clan lasers, because it sounds like they want to enjoy those massive strikes with the same level of heat that an IS build would generate with between 30 and 40 points of damage at much closer distances, and to me that's completely ludicrous.

And you are also absolutely right to compare the product builds rather than potential. The goal is to see what you can do pragmatically to compete with the opposite number. Nobody is going to build a 7x ERLL Banshee, and nobody is going to build a 6x C-ERLL Warhawk or 8x C-ERLL Dire Wolf (actually, not true, they used to do that regularly before the ghost heat and duration changes and it was terrifying if that assault had support).

TL;DR: finally, somebody else gets it!

#32 1453 R

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 05:43 PM

One of my emerging favorite machines in mu NuClan stable is my quad-cMPL Stormcrow. As in "all it runs is four cMPL". That's a 32-point beam alpha, which most people seem to feel is completely lackluster and hardly worth bothering with.

Here's the thing, though - that 'Mech has 53% Smurfy heat efficiency before efficiencies. Yeah, 32 points is pretty pithy next to 70-damage TBR nonsense alphas, but it's still more damage than a dual Gauss shot, and I can keep firing it all damn day. On top of which, I get some pretty awesome targeting and sensor bonuses from a midweight TC and my active probe.

Experiments with this machine are actually what started my current modernization drive of my Clan stable, throwing away the generally accepted conventional wisdom that the Clans are only good when producing monumental Supah-Alphas, of which they can produce two and a half before overheating sets in. Heh, in point of fact those recent experiments are what finally gave me the key I needed to figuring out configurations I can actually run on my Novas without hating myself (hint - you now have a 1E pod available in either ST. Use them), and may yet produce usable Ferrets.

Not everything can skimp on raw alpha potential in exchange for precision and heat efficiency (stupid Doges...), but a lot more machines can do just exactly that than people seem to realize.

#33 Zordicron

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 06:43 PM

View Post1453 R, on 26 May 2015 - 05:43 PM, said:

One of my emerging favorite machines in mu NuClan stable is my quad-cMPL Stormcrow. As in "all it runs is four cMPL". That's a 32-point beam alpha, which most people seem to feel is completely lackluster and hardly worth bothering with.

Here's the thing, though - that 'Mech has 53% Smurfy heat efficiency before efficiencies. Yeah, 32 points is pretty pithy next to 70-damage TBR nonsense alphas, but it's still more damage than a dual Gauss shot, and I can keep firing it all damn day. On top of which, I get some pretty awesome targeting and sensor bonuses from a midweight TC and my active probe.

Experiments with this machine are actually what started my current modernization drive of my Clan stable, throwing away the generally accepted conventional wisdom that the Clans are only good when producing monumental Supah-Alphas, of which they can produce two and a half before overheating sets in. Heh, in point of fact those recent experiments are what finally gave me the key I needed to figuring out configurations I can actually run on my Novas without hating myself (hint - you now have a 1E pod available in either ST. Use them), and may yet produce usable Ferrets.

Not everything can skimp on raw alpha potential in exchange for precision and heat efficiency (stupid Doges...), but a lot more machines can do just exactly that than people seem to realize.

I have been doing this since clans launched. For instance, my 6 ERML Nova. I mean, sure it's a Nova and it's a tricky bit to not get your mech blown in half, BUT, its like running 6 IS LL, except it takes 6 tons and 6 crits. In CW or other group organized play, it isn't really potent enough for top competition for reasons I explain below. In pug land, where every battle eds in a 200M fuzzball by the end, lower alpha loadouts that can keep moving and sticking are generally rather good.

I have never understood the gripes about lack of pod space on clan mechs. The only thing it limits is like dual gauss or other heavy ballistics. You can slap 6 IS LL equivalent on ONE ARM of a Gargamel, and have like 15 tons left over.


Essentially, the high heat cap/low dissipation mechanic, along with tryhard 12 man playing focus fire/gank tactics(stemming from the initial poptart methods) means it is better to poke out, cap your heat and then back up to cool down. It minimizes exposure and maximizes dmg per exposure time. This isn't some secret, but it is strongly related to the discussion here about max alphas vs DPS.

A simple change to a lower cap and higher dissipation would radically change how this game plays and basically irradicate the crazy alpha strike meta.

#34 cSand

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 07:58 PM

View PostEldagore, on 26 May 2015 - 06:43 PM, said:


A simple change to a lower cap and higher dissipation would radically change how this game plays and basically irradicate the crazy alpha strike meta.


My name is cSand and I approve this message

#35 Ultimax

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 08:14 PM

View Post1453 R, on 26 May 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

...snip...



Did the removal of one DHS in favor of slotting ECM really require that wall of text? ;)

Go ahead, swap it out - it still proves my point.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 26 May 2015 - 08:32 PM.


#36 1453 R

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 10:00 PM

View PostUltimatum X, on 26 May 2015 - 08:14 PM, said:



Did the removal of one DHS in favor of slotting ECM really require that wall of text? ;)

Go ahead, swap it out - it still proves my point.


Actually ran (a somewhat adjusted for sanity - no five DHS in the sacrificial side!) edition of The Production Version a few shots earlier tonight. Still have an HBR variant in need of doubling out, this seemed like a thing to try.

Six cMPL is still pretty toasty, especially with only 24 DHS to cool it off, but the dissipation is nice, and a 48-point alpha is still pretty savage. One of the first times I've tried to run a shield-side 'Mech - normally prefer to run more symmetrical configurations and try to spread damage all over rather than trying to concentrate damage on a single sacrificial side. Fighting my instincts with it a bit which degrades its performance, but it's certainly not pleasant for the enemy.

Also still feels hotter than the GHR...I'm honestly curious why that is. I mean yeah, most of its test fights ended up on Tourmaline tonight for whatever reason, but still.

Edited by 1453 R, 26 May 2015 - 10:01 PM.


#37 Y E O N N E

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 10:22 PM

The HBR is a bit funky with asymmetry since it has a left side bias. I don't know about you, but when I play I normally turn to the right first and use the left as a shield.

As for the heat, there's a fairly hefty 12.5% generation reduction on the Grasshopper combining with already colder weapons for less heat. You've got 17 DHS in there and that's actually pretty damn good for a build that only makes 26.25 heat per shot when compared to one that generates 36. You are generating 6.18 hps versus 9.35 hps on the HBR. Divide by the dissipation...3.43 on the GHR and 3.93 on the HBR, and you get the efficiency. GHR is at 1.8 and the HBR is 2.38. Lower number is better, because lower number is point of heat per point of dissipation.





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