11 replies to this topic

[Richard Hazen]

I keep reading in random threads that there seems to be a cut off point at which battletech lore isn't considered canon or even good so it should be disregarded, is this right and what is it?

[Faith McCarron]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Canon

That's the long answer for you.

The TL:DR answer is that what is and is not canon is determined by the line developers as the holders of the IP rights.

I'm not sure what, specifically you are referring to though. There are some universally "bad" things in BattleTech that are still part of the canon. Take the novel "Far Country" for example, it has sentient alien bird people in it, and technically it is considered canon by the line developers.

[Nightmare1]

Deimos Alpha, on 27 May 2015 - 05:21 AM, said:

I keep reading in random threads that there seems to be a cut off point at which battletech lore isn't considered canon or even good so it should be disregarded, is this right and what is it?

It depends on who you talk to about it. Most self-described TT (TableTop) Purists will tell you that only the BT board games are canon. Others, like me, will insist that it's the novel series and the previous MW franchise when talking with respect to MWO. In general though, the truth tends to lie closer to the middle, with both the BT board game and some of the books serving to form a nucleas of canonical material.

For this game, canon often does not translate well into gameplay, which is why there is so much debate over it. Purists want this to be a real-time version of TT with dice-roll inspired chance events, hit reg, heat penalties, etc. MW purists want something more like the MW franchise (I personally would like to see this game modeled after MW4) with knock-downs, collisions, Death from Above, Clan Tech advantages, etc. Others want a hybrid of the two, while still other players ask for something more like what we see in the books.

Personally speaking, I believe in crossing MW4 with the novels and crafting a game based on that alone, without much regard to the original board games. That's my own opinion though. When it comes to canon, there isn't so much a set "cut-off" point that you can point to and say, "Aha! There it is!" It's more based on the individual material and how it fits into the BT/MW Universe. Does it contradict accepted weapon or Mech specifications? Does it contradict accepted events? You get the idea. In short, there's no general rule, but rather a case-by-case evaluation.

Now, the eval has already been done by publishers and fans. If you go to Sarna or run a Google Search, you can probably find a list of canonical and non-canonical materials.

Hope this helps!

[rolly]

I believe its the general morale of the fan base.

Sometimes you have the "innovators" who take a genre in a new direction. Some either butcher it. Ie. Michael Bay and Transformers/Ninja Turtles. Or take it in a new direction and look. Ie. J.J. Abrams. All you have to do is read through the threads to see how well this IP is being treated and how the Fan base (in particular the hard core BT nerdage [I include myself in this catagory]) feels and reacts.

You can cut and nip a few things here and there (as with other MW/MC titles) have done without ruining the fabric of the universe. I feel this game breaks it on several levels. Here are a few:

- Over Quirking as an excuse to "balance"
- Neutering of Clans and their introduction purely to drive marketing/sales revenue
- Double Heatsinks
- Ghost Heat on canon mechs
- Making crap up just to fit marketing and sales.

[Rush Maguin]

Canon usually depends on the individual. The line developers do develop canon, but players sometimes reject it for personal reasons and expect everyone else to do so by their reasoning as well. For example, a lot of people detest the Dark Age, but there are lots of people who have enjoyed it. Alas, the naysayers could not care less. THEY don't want it, so nobody should have it, either. I know people who still hate the Clan Invasion and still want to carry on like it never happened. What they do at their table is cool by me, but demanding retcons at this point anywhere is just ridiculous. After all, there are tons of things that happen in the real world every day that I don't care for and can't cry out to see decanonized. Not everything that happens in a living, breathing universe need sit well with absolutely everyone.

[Richard Hazen]

Yeah I'd read people seem to discount the Dark Age a lot, I dunno how far MWO is going to go into Lore, I didn't know the Clan Invasion was an issue though.

[rolly]

To be honest, I feel there is very little Lore here. Its kind of a shame really. With over 25 years of literature, you have such a great wealth of untapped creative ideas and knowledge For the most part it tends to be disregarded, even though it would be such a wonderful vein for marketing to tap.

[kosmos1214]

Rush Maguin, on 27 May 2015 - 07:03 AM, said:

Canon usually depends on the individual. The line developers do develop canon, but players sometimes reject it for personal reasons and expect everyone else to do so by their reasoning as well. For example, a lot of people detest the Dark Age, but there are lots of people who have enjoyed it. Alas, the naysayers could not care less. THEY don't want it, so nobody should have it, either. I know people who still hate the Clan Invasion and still want to carry on like it never happened. What they do at their table is cool by me, but demanding retcons at this point anywhere is just ridiculous. After all, there are tons of things that happen in the real world every day that I don't care for and can't cry out to see decanonized. Not everything that happens in a living, breathing universe need sit well with absolutely everyone.

this this a thousand times this

[rolly]

Rush Maguin, on 27 May 2015 - 07:03 AM, said:

Canon usually depends on the individual. The line developers do develop canon, but players sometimes reject it for personal reasons and expect everyone else to do so by their reasoning as well. For example, a lot of people detest the Dark Age, but there are lots of people who have enjoyed it. Alas, the naysayers could not care less. THEY don't want it, so nobody should have it, either. I know people who still hate the Clan Invasion and still want to carry on like it never happened. What they do at their table is cool by me, but demanding retcons at this point anywhere is just ridiculous. After all, there are tons of things that happen in the real world every day that I don't care for and can't cry out to see decanonized. Not everything that happens in a living, breathing universe need sit well with absolutely everyone.

Canon isn't about what you like or dislike or accept. Canon is decided by general concensus and by a recognized authority on the subject. Originally this was FASA and its hired and recognized official publishers/authors as what is Lore and what officially happened in the time line.

If it were up to the individual, every "Harry Potter fan-fic love triangle romance" or player created ilKhan John "Ace" Brown would be accepted as Canon.

[Rush Maguin]

Exactly my point. Many individuals want their way over the canon. They decide canon for everyone else, or so they think. "I hate Dark Age! Retcon it all! It's garbage!" If I had a dime for every one of those I've read, even recently, I'd own several small islands. The fact that some people enjoy Dark Age doesn't mean anything. They're not allowed to. Not if Joe Gamer says DA absolutely sucks for everyone because it's not for -him-.

[Bill Bullet]

What I like about the entire Battletech lore monster is that it's divided into several periods: The Golden Age, the Amaris Civil War, the Succession Wars (1-3), the 4th Succession War, Clan Invasion, FedCom Civil War, Word of Blake Jihad, Founding of the Republic, and the Dark Age. The historical events/technologies of all these periods are outlined but are open enough that you can basically insert your own scenario anywhere/anytime be it tabletop, roleplay, or fan fiction. That, to me at least is the biggest draw of the BT universe.

[shippy]

A lot of old timers like myself struggled with anything post-Jihad. FASA had the JIhad planned but then they stopped as a company and WizKids jumped ahead to the Dark Age, but never really was clear on how anyone got from Jihad to Dark Age, when the line was picked up by Catalyst/Fan Pro they were obligated to "fill in the blanks" knowing the ending and beginning and most of the major players, and trying to make a story that was entertaining with those restraints. So in general we're at the cusp of a new age of lore that is built and planned from the current time so what comes next should have a bit more of the authentic battletech feel. I enjoyed the Republic story lines and once they could back away from 1 mech per planet, type stuff it got pretty entertaining. the Dark Age novels really suffered for this, but they got better as time progressed.

There's lots of speculation that they'll jump ahead again usually 1-2 generations (they did this after the 4th Succession war and then to the Dark Ages). It allows them to introduce new heroes, nations etc, and lets them tell some back story. But they may just pick up and run in 3135-ish.

But yeah I read the universe section of the original Mechwarrior RPG book and then have bought every book since then. I adore the universe.