94 replies to this topic

[RedDragon]

I always wondered ... IIRC those Titans are supposed to carry troops in their legs (you can see them coming out there in the first picture). Must be the ride of your life being transported in the legs of a walking Mech

[IraqiWalker]

RedDragon, on 09 June 2015 - 09:01 AM, said:

Haha yeah I remember that thread. Was quite hilarious because the OP insisted on things like Thor being based on Jesus and England being part of the Holy Roman Empire, and when confronted with it he asked the mods to lock the thread instead of admitting to being wrong.

But that aside: I find the discussion here quite interesting. I myself just have a bit of peripheral knowledge of WH40K lore (having read one book and some stuff on the WH-Wiki).

I guess before determing who would win an encounter, the premises for that must be established. I.e. is it an isolated encounter of some troops or a planet-wide/galaxy-wide conquest? What are the goals of both sides? Etc.
Furthermore it would have to be established in which world the battle takes place. Is it BT invading the world of WH or the other way round?

Those infos are quie important, because e.g. if the Imperium wanted to deal with the Inner Sphere, they could just go on and use their planet-killing weapons if resistance would be too strong. BT only has ABC-weapons, but they don't work on the same scale as those from WH if I understand it correctly.

In a direct fight I would generally lean towards WH winning (although I love BT), because they have the power of space magic, which BT doesn't. But it would depend on the setting and circumstances. A horde of Space Marines shouldn't be much of a problem for a Mech unit that is trained to deal with elementals. Titans on the other hand ... well if the BT commander had lots of ressources and time to prepare, I think it would be possible to take them out. Apart from air strikes and artillery, you have to remember that there are infantry units in BT that are specially trained to swarm mechs. I am not that firm in WH-lore and how their Titans operate in detail, but I'd guess it would be possible for a unit of anti-mech infantry/battle armour to swarm a Titan and just kill its crew instead of destroying the whole thing (or taking out some important parts like the engine, joints etc. with explosives).

To sum ipt up: In a fuill-out war WH would win because of space magic and numbers. But their forces aren't unbeatable and a BT commander with the right tools at his exposal should be able to counter anything WH could offer on a smaller scale.

You would TECHNICALLY be correct in your final assumption. The problem is in the scale of armor and fire power.

For example: To pierce the shields, and armor of a titan, you need the largest naval cannons, and lasers, and even then, you're barely putting a dent in it, with NAVAL weaponry. On the other hand, a simple hand held Lascannon is the equivalent of a Naval Laser 55. Space marines field those in squads. The Imperial guard has those in the thousands per detachment. The Guardsman Lasgun is the equivalent to a BT ML, carried by literally every soldier in the IG. Under a rank fire at half range, each soldier will shoot three times. In a platoon of 50, that's 150 shots going down range, in ONE turn. 150 MLs, that generate 0 heat, hitting a target. Hell, even if we demote them to SLs, that's still 150 SLs hitting a target. If that target is an enemy lance they just suffered from 450 damage. Factoring in accuracy, yada yada, that's still about 200 damage, from one squad of infantry.

To put it bluntly: there are no infantry mounted weapons in BT, that can be a threat to void shields, and titans come with several of those. Even if the shields are down, there are still no infantry mounted weapons that are capable of chewing through all the armor a titan has, before the shields refresh.

RedDragon, on 09 June 2015 - 01:14 PM, said:

I always wondered ... IIRC those Titans are supposed to carry troops in their legs (you can see them coming out there in the first picture). Must be the ride of your life being transported in the legs of a walking Mech

5000 guardsmen in each leg. (or 500. I don't remember)

[RedDragon]

IraqiWalker, on 09 June 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

On the other hand, a simple hand held Lascannon is the equivalent of a Naval Laser 55. Space marines field those in squads. The Imperial guard has those in the thousands per detachment. The Guardsman Lasgun is the equivalent to a BT ML, carried by literally every soldier in the IG.

The question is: How do you get those comparisons? They seem a bit arbitrary, because going after the description on the WH-Wiki:

Quote

The Lasgun uses a small portable capacitor power pack to produce a focused pinpoint laser beam which is strong enough to take an ordinary human arm off with one shot but is not as effective against the more durable alien bodies and stronger types of personal armour.

I would categorize them as a standard-issue laser rifle as fielded by normal infantry in BT. A medium laser in BT is perfectly able to vaporize a human body on a hit.

Likewise, I guess you vastly overestimate the power of a Lascannon. To put it in perspective I will use the Mechwarrior RPG, it can be used to show weapon effects on single humans. A standard laser rifle does 4D6 damage there. That's an average of 14 damage per shot. You need about 30 damage to severe a limb, which can be done with a really good shot (you factor in margin of success of your to-hit roll). BT weapons are converted doing 3D6 per point of BT damage. That's 15D6 for a medium laser. And 165D6 for a Naval Laser 55. Again for perspective: You need 60 damage for an instant kill. The Naval Laser does 577 damage on average, not counting in the to-hit roll. In fact, a NL 55 is able to reduce a heavy building to rubble with one shot. From space.
I would at best rate a Lascannon as a medium laser from what I read on the wiki, but there are no damage effects described. So if you could provide them, maybe we can categorize it better

Edited by RedDragon, 10 June 2015 - 01:07 AM.

[SnagaDance]

IraqiWalker, on 09 June 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

The Guardsman Lasgun is the equivalent to a BT ML, carried by literally every soldier in the IG. Under a rank fire at half range, each soldier will shoot three times. In a platoon of 50, that's 150 shots going down range, in ONE turn. 150 MLs, that generate 0 heat, hitting a target. Hell, even if we demote them to SLs, that's still 150 SLs hitting a target. If that target is an enemy lance they just suffered from 450 damage. Factoring in accuracy, yada yada, that's still about 200 damage, from one squad of infantry.

While I love and agree with all other technical aspects from the 40K universe you have tried to equal with the BattleTech universe, I just can't see this point being valid. The infamous Guardsman 'flashlight'. And that's purely based on comparing the effect of those weapons versus a human target. There are enough 40K novels that describe how Lasgun hits work versus other infantry, and they are quite survivable (or just as survivable as bullets are really, so deadly but not 100% lethal every time). Ruleswise that is also why the autogun is considered equal in stats. Which is basically a large caliber automatic weapon.

But the effect of lasers versus human targets in BattleTech also has several mentions. And here the ML instantly flash fries human targets. Zap. Lethal. Verus small lasers you might 'just lose a limb' if you're lucky. Seems a bit more powerful to me than lasrifles to be honest.

[IraqiWalker]

RedDragon, on 10 June 2015 - 01:03 AM, said:

The question is: How do you get those comparisons? They seem a bit arbitrary, because going after the description on the WH-Wiki:



I would categorize them as a standard-issue laser rifle as fielded by normal infantry in BT. A medium laser in BT is perfectly able to vaporize a human body on a hit.

Likewise, I guess you vastly overestimate the power of a Lascannon. To put it in perspective I will use the Mechwarrior RPG, it can be used to show weapon effects on single humans. A standard laser rifle does 4D6 damage there. That's an average of 14 damage per shot. You need about 30 damage to severe a limb, which can be done with a really good shot (you factor in margin of success of your to-hit roll). BT weapons are converted doing 3D6 per point of BT damage. That's 15D6 for a medium laser. And 165D6 for a Naval Laser 55. Again for perspective: You need 60 damage for an instant kill. The Naval Laser does 577 damage on average, not counting in the to-hit roll. In fact, a NL 55 is able to reduce a heavy building to rubble with one shot. From space.
I would at best rate a Lascannon as a medium laser from what I read on the wiki, but there are no damage effects described. So if you could provide them, maybe we can categorize it better

The Lascannon one shots buildings, and super heavy tanks. It can punch through almost any armor in 40K. Also ,the comparison is based on the comparative Strength. While somewhat skewed, the Lascannon is Strength 9 (Orbital bombardment is strength 10, or D depending on the weapon), It's one of the most powerful weapons on the field, and it is actually capable of damaging titans, despite their armor. Convert titan armor into BT values, and you start to see how strong the Lascannon is. Trust me, After tons of back and forth, the Lascannon is the equivalent to a very powerful Naval Laser. It one shots buildings, (I'm talking 40K buildings here, btw) and should have the ability to one shot BT Assault mechs. It's a weapon that's powerful enough to actually damage void shields, and be a threat to titans when fielded in large numbers.

Now the las gun flash fries a lot of things. It's weak compared to 40K things. That's the problem, it's weak compared to 40K armor, and weaponry. I was still keeping in mind how the scale is seen by others, which is why I threw in the second example where it's downgraded, and it would still be a Small laser. Hell, even if you make it into a micro laser, you're still looking at 150 shots each dealing 2 damage for a maximum potential of 300, and an average of 200 (based on IG accuracy) from an infantry squad.

In BT, infantry can be a decent threat to mechs, but they don't one shot a mech by fire saturation.

So on the higher end, the Lasgun deals 3 damage, on the middle ground, it deals 2 damage, and on the low end, it deals 1 damage. There's still 150 of them coming at that Atlas, all from one platoon of guardsmen.

SnagaDance, on 10 June 2015 - 01:05 AM, said:

While I love and agree with all other technical aspects from the 40K universe you have tried to equal with the BattleTech universe, I just can't see this point being valid. The infamous Guardsman 'flashlight'. And that's purely based on comparing the effect of those weapons versus a human target. There are enough 40K novels that describe how Lasgun hits work versus other infantry, and they are quite survivable (or just as survivable as bullets are really, so deadly but not 100% lethal every time). Ruleswise that is also why the autogun is considered equal in stats. Which is basically a large caliber automatic weapon.

But the effect of lasers versus human targets in BattleTech also has several mentions. And here the ML instantly flash fries human targets. Zap. Lethal. Verus small lasers you might 'just lose a limb' if you're lucky. Seems a bit more powerful to me than lasrifles to be honest.

That's because as mentioned above, the "flashlight" (we call guardsman armor "cardboard boxes") is weak compared to the 40K equipment it goes up against. Compared to BT weaponry, it is really friggin impressive. Also, while technically the ML vaporizes a human being, that actually has more to do with the scale of the beam here. the Lasgun will fire a tiny, but insanely powerful beam. So while it flash fries someone's arm, and hits with the equivalent strength of a large caliber gun, it's damage area is minimal. It can sever limbs, and it can vaporize sections of a human's body, the whole problem here is that the beam is tiny, so it can deal however many dice worth of damage, but it's to a very localized area.


For the record, I can understand your arguments against the Lasgun = ML comparison, and see no issue with dropping the power level down a few notches, This post was just explaining the thought process behind my decision.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 10 June 2015 - 01:43 AM.

[RedDragon]

IraqiWalker, on 10 June 2015 - 01:41 AM, said:

The Lascannon one shots buildings, and super heavy tanks. It can punch through almost any armor in 40K. Also ,the comparison is based on the comparative Strength. While somewhat skewed, the Lascannon is Strength 9 (Orbital bombardment is strength 10, or D depending on the weapon), It's one of the most powerful weapons on the field, and it is actually capable of damaging titans, despite their armor. Convert titan armor into BT values, and you start to see how strong the Lascannon is. Trust me, After tons of back and forth, the Lascannon is the equivalent to a very powerful Naval Laser. It one shots buildings, (I'm talking 40K buildings here, btw) and should have the ability to one shot BT Assault mechs. It's a weapon that's powerful enough to actually damage void shields, and be a threat to titans when fielded in large numbers.

Now the las gun flash fries a lot of things. It's weak compared to 40K things. That's the problem, it's weak compared to 40K armor, and weaponry. I was still keeping in mind how the scale is seen by others, which is why I threw in the second example where it's downgraded, and it would still be a Small laser. Hell, even if you make it into a micro laser, you're still looking at 150 shots each dealing 2 damage for a maximum potential of 300, and an average of 200 (based on IG accuracy) from an infantry squad.

In BT, infantry can be a decent threat to mechs, but they don't one shot a mech by fire saturation.

So on the higher end, the Lasgun deals 3 damage, on the middle ground, it deals 2 damage, and on the low end, it deals 1 damage. There's still 150 of them coming at that Atlas, all from one platoon of guardsmen.


That's because as mentioned above, the "flashlight" (we call guardsman armor "cardboard boxes") is weak compared to the 40K equipment it goes up against. Compared to BT weaponry, it is really friggin impressive. Also, while technically the ML vaporizes a human being, that actually has more to do with the scale of the beam here. the Lasgun will fire a tiny, but insanely powerful beam. So while it flash fries someone's arm, and hits with the equivalent strength of a large caliber gun, it's damage area is minimal. It can sever limbs, and it can vaporize sections of a human's body, the whole problem here is that the beam is tiny, so it can deal however many dice worth of damage, but it's to a very localized area.


For the record, I can understand your arguments against the Lasgun = ML comparison, and see no issue with dropping the power level down a few notches, This post was just explaining the thought process behind my decision.

I still think you are overestimating those damage values.

Mech lasers are also not really big in calibre, they are some centimeters at best, so you can't really vaporize a human with them, that was a bit exaggerated. But they will vaporize anything they hit, killing a human with ease. And laser rifles have the same "problem" you mentioned for Lasguns, they also only hit a small part of a target. Sarna describes them as "it can make a 1.5cm-long cut through a .5cm-thick piece of steel in 2 seconds". So compared to the Lasguns' descritption on the Wiki I would definitely say the infantry laser rifle is a good comaprison for the Lasgun. And yes, infantry with lasers can really harm a mech. I don't have the tables here right now, but I remember a rifle squad doing about 15 damage/turn to a mech at full strength (28 troopers), that's the equivvalent to a Gauss Rifle, and it's more for a laser squad.

As to the Lascannon: The problem would be that i also does only punctual damage. So you may hit tha Altas, you may even cut right through it, but chances are you didn't hit something essential. In some novels there are scenes where Gauss slugs travel right through a mech, not killin it. The Lascannon would take off an arm or cut through a torso, but it would be hard to kill the mech in one shot. And this is only if you really think that they are that powerful, what I'm still not convinced of. Add to that that Lascannons need a long time to recharge and only can be fired once with one battery pack.

As you said, we can't take the WH damage values seriously because then a Lascannon would be equivalent to an orbital strike, and that is just ridiculous. What we'd need would be some fluff descriptions of its effects on different things like humans, buildings etc.
Still I would only classify it like a large laser or a PPC at best.

[DI3T3R]

Lasguns don't kill by vaporizing or exploding a person. It causes a severe burn. First the shock of the massive pain will render you unconscious or throw you into shock and then the necrosis of the wound will poison you or you die from the blood-loss.

[IraqiWalker]

RedDragon, on 10 June 2015 - 02:06 AM, said:

I still think you are overestimating those damage values.

Mech lasers are also not really big in calibre, they are some centimeters at best, so you can't really vaporize a human with them, that was a bit exaggerated. But they will vaporize anything they hit, killing a human with ease. And laser rifles have the same "problem" you mentioned for Lasguns, they also only hit a small part of a target. Sarna describes them as "it can make a 1.5cm-long cut through a .5cm-thick piece of steel in 2 seconds". So compared to the Lasguns' descritption on the Wiki I would definitely say the infantry laser rifle is a good comaprison for the Lasgun. And yes, infantry with lasers can really harm a mech. I don't have the tables here right now, but I remember a rifle squad doing about 15 damage/turn to a mech at full strength (28 troopers), that's the equivvalent to a Gauss Rifle, and it's more for a laser squad.

Even going by those numbers, the guard squad comes in at 50 men at full strength, with the ability to fire twice at half range, and with a rank command can fire an additional third time, in one turn.

That's ~30 damage at full range, 60 with Rank

60 damage at half range, 90 with Rank.

From one platoon of Guardsmen. Without any upgrades.

RedDragon, on 10 June 2015 - 02:06 AM, said:

As to the Lascannon: The problem would be that i also does only punctual damage. So you may hit tha Altas, you may even cut right through it, but chances are you didn't hit something essential. In some novels there are scenes where Gauss slugs travel right through a mech, not killin it. The Lascannon would take off an arm or cut through a torso, but it would be hard to kill the mech in one shot. And this is only if you really think that they are that powerful, what I'm still not convinced of. Add to that that Lascannons need a long time to recharge and only can be fired once with one battery pack.

As you said, we can't take the WH damage values seriously because then a Lascannon would be equivalent to an orbital strike, and that is just ridiculous. What we'd need would be some fluff descriptions of its effects on different things like humans, buildings etc.
Still I would only classify it like a large laser or a PPC at best.

Here's the thing though. The Lascannon does hit at strength 9, it just doesn't cause explosive damage, instead it surgically melts literally any material it hits. It's a ludicrously powerful weapon that can burn through an assault mech in one shot, (especially a 10 second long shot), and yes, it does deal surgical damage, so fluff wise it will punch a hole clean through a mech, without necessarily destroying something important. However, on the TT the rules don't care for the caliber, the weapon will deal the insane amount of damage, to the whole section, not just the impacted area. It's significantly stronger than a Large Laser, which in 40K terms would be a strength 6 weapon, at best. The PPC would definitely be a S 6 or 7 weapons. It would be AP 3 instead of AP 2 like plasma, but it would still royally screw with SMs, since it can ignore their armor save, and wound them on a 2+ on a D6 (in 40K TT rules)

You have to translate the targets that the weapon can threaten into BT terms, and then translate the weapon's effect in 40K into BT terms, proportional to it's targets to get a somewhat faithful to the source material stat line. I also forgot to mention that this weapon weighs something in the 60-100 Kilogram range that's 0.06- 0.1 tons. It's infantry portable.

It's effect on any structure or vehicle that it hits is the same: It melts the target section to slag and punches through it. While causing immense heat in the target area hit. So it will hit that tiny area with an immense amount of power, akin to that of an orbital bombardment beam, minus the devastating AOE. In all honesty, once you get to strength 9, and up, it's just a matter of what flavor do you like to see that thing explode in, because they are all capable of oneshotting most 40K things, and by proxy, every BT thing, short of warships. Warships can handle several shots from Lascannons (after all, they would only deal 5.5 damage to a warship, or any capital class vessel, actually. However, we're still not talking about capital 40K weapons, because they make everything else seem reasonable)

This also should convey how strong the armor really is, that it has the chance to withstand orbital bombardment (a vehicle with AV 14 will require the OB weapon to roll a 4 for a glancing hit, and a 5+ for a penetrating hit, on a D6, and even then, the OB weapon might not score a "vehicle destroyed" roll. That's the toughest there is, BTW, everything else is below that, and gets progressively easier to kill with OB weaponry)

Edited by IraqiWalker, 10 June 2015 - 03:30 AM.

[RedDragon]

Before that gets out of hand: I don't want to belittle the WH weapons, and I can only refer to my previous statement that WH overall would win because of Space Magic, there can be no doubt about that. When you throw most physics over board, you will get that effect. But as I mentioned earlier, I'd guess that BT forces could win certain encounters under the right circumstances, this includes beating Space Marines and even Titans.
I'd say it is an error to judge by the game mechanics as long as we don't know anything about the physics behind them. Maybe Lascannons are only that powerful because armour doesn't really play that much of a role in WH? For all we know Plasteel is only a glorified steel alloy and Ceramite some kind of ceramic, while BT armour is a highly sophisticated composition of different high-tech materials.

Further, the damage values of WH are based on a different system. If I understand it correctly, WH only differentiates between "vehicle not dead" and "vehicle dead"? So they don't really have to include different effects of weapons fire like BT where it is possible to hit diferent locations on vehicles, make critical hits on equipment, explode ammo, knock the crew unconscious etc.
So in WH there is no need to differentiate further between a Lascannon and an orbital strike because they both will kill a target in one shot. But in BT a Lascannon could as well be a normal Laser that just has a high chance of critting because of its armour piercing ability.

So again, WH has the advantage of unrealistic weapons and a much higher fantasy-level of its setting, but BT has some highly sophisticated stuff that could very well stand its ground under the right circumstances.
A trooper with a Lascannon will kill an enemy trooper with one shot, but so will a portable PPC. It would be a question of who fights against whom on what circumstances, as I explained in my very firs post here.

[IraqiWalker]

RedDragon, on 10 June 2015 - 03:55 AM, said:

Before that gets out of hand: I don't want to belittle the WH weapons, and I can only refer to my previous statement that WH overall would win because of Space Magic, there can be no doubt about that. When you throw most physics over board, you will get that effect. But as I mentioned earlier, I'd guess that BT forces could win certain encounters under the right circumstances, this includes beating Space Marines and even Titans.
I'd say it is an error to judge by the game mechanics as long as we don't know anything about the physics behind them. Maybe Lascannons are only that powerful because armour doesn't really play that much of a role in WH? For all we know Plasteel is only a glorified steel alloy and Ceramite some kind of ceramic, while BT armour is a highly sophisticated composition of different high-tech materials.

Further, the damage values of WH are based on a different system. If I understand it correctly, WH only differentiates between "vehicle not dead" and "vehicle dead"? So they don't really have to include different effects of weapons fire like BT where it is possible to hit diferent locations on vehicles, make critical hits on equipment, explode ammo, knock the crew unconscious etc.
So in WH there is no need to differentiate further between a Lascannon and an orbital strike because they both will kill a target in one shot. But in BT a Lascannon could as well be a normal Laser that just has a high chance of critting because of its armour piercing ability.

So again, WH has the advantage of unrealistic weapons and a much higher fantasy-level of its setting, but BT has some highly sophisticated stuff that could very well stand its ground under the right circumstances.
A trooper with a Lascannon will kill an enemy trooper with one shot, but so will a portable PPC. It would be a question of who fights against whom on what circumstances, as I explained in my very firs post here.

Don't worry, nothing is getting out of hand.

As for vehicle damage, Warhammher actually has a chart, Glancing hits only remove one hull point (most vehicles have 3, the bigger ones have 4, super heavies, and titans have Structure points (each structure point is the equivalent to 3 hull points), and have no other effects. Penetrating hits start at (on a D6):

1- Nothing happens
2- Crew shaken (vehicle can't turbo boost, and weapons can only snap fire, this prevents template weapons, and ordnance weapons from firing completely)
3- Crew Stunned (vehicle can't turbo boost, and no weapons can fire)
4- Weapon destroyed (assign each weapon a number corresponding to a side on the D6, roll, and see which one is destroyed)
5- Vehicle wrecked (destroyed, but the hull remains on the board, and can be used as cover
6- Vehicle explodes (self explanatory, anything within the radius receives a strong hit, anything inside the vehicle receives an even stronger hit, the chassis is removed, and a crater is left in it's place, that counts as difficult terrain, and minimal cover)

[Void Angel]

Warhammer is hardly the only one in this hypothetical confrontation using "space magic," you know.

[IraqiWalker]

Void Angel, on 10 June 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:

Warhammer is hardly the only one in this hypothetical confrontation using "space magic," you know.

We can make tons more leeway for BT, comparatively. 40K uses special kinds of psykers just to navigate FTL travel. We also have psykers and librarians that can literally turn a Behemoth inside out with but a thought. We also have titans that violate basic laws of physics (unless those Titans have Anti Gravity generators, the bigger ones should not be that tall, if they are that slim), then we've got Gellar Fields, and Voice shields. Which honestly, compared to what BT has, definitely seem like magic.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a big gun" Maxim 24.

Also: "Magic is simply science that we don't understand yet"

Edited by IraqiWalker, 10 June 2015 - 01:45 PM.

[Catamount]

Iraqiwalker, thanks for taking the time over the last couple of days to post in detail. I'm been on 12 hour days at work this week, so I likely won't have time to write up any thoughts in detail, however I will say that I fundamentally agree with RedDragon here on an important point, which is that I fundamentally disagree with some of how you've arrived at your conclusions on the matchup here. I don't think you're looking at things wrong; I just think you're answering a slightly different question than I would have interpreted from the OP.

I don't think the question of which board game would prevail if you stuck pieces from both on a flat surface together and normalized rulesets is the same question as which universe would prevail in a fight. The respective TT games are games that happen to take place in those universes. I don't hold that that's the same as them actually being the respective universes, and would no more endorse such a method of analysis than I would settling a Star Wars vs Star Trek debate by looking up the ship scrips in Armada II and Empire At War or weapon values in respective shooter titles to compare technologies, because such games are translations of "real world" conditions to board game or RTS video game conditions, and the latter is intrinsically incapable of fully representing the former. At best, it's a simplistic model. Red's absolutely right here. There are just too many assumptions inherent to an analysis relying on such information, I think, to glean enormously useful information.

Do I still think 40k would win? I haven't really looked at 40k in a few years, largely because I got frustrated in the last big discussion I was in by consistent fluff figures for the universe (its inconsistency is in the multiples of orders of magnitude), and the inability to easily filter the definitive from the speculative or non-canonical. Upon review, I don't think 40k needs "magic" to beat BT. They're simply more technologically advanced and have greater industrial capacity (how much BT could close that gap had the Succession wars never happened would be an interesting discussion). Energy shields alone, or their equivalent, are game changers, and they don't even have to be god-like durable to be so, but rather just capable of shrugging off a handful of solid hits without notable damage to the ship underneath (ie bleedthrough excepted).

I do, however, think you're inflating 40k figures. I think your numbers are largely inconsistent with the bulk of published fluff figures, with general descriptions of the level of technology (power generation and storage, weapon descriptions, etc), with a number of observed effects, etc. I also probably start with a few different assumptions than you do, and meta level disagreements make things rather difficult out of the gate. Maybe over the weekend there will be time for a good discussion on that topic, as well as discussing the relative merits of different kinds of analysis of 40k. There's never any end to ways you can approach analysis in vs topics.

Edited by Catamount, 10 June 2015 - 03:39 PM.

[Void Angel]

Oh, sure, sure - but Battlemechs violate the laws of physics, big time. It's a lot less far-fetched than 40K, but the bar is pretty low there - and it's not really appropriate to look at a universe based around everything being ridiculously epic and say, "well, sure they'd win, because Space Magic!"

The problem is that in order to get an engagement where BattleTech wins, you have to stack the odds very heavily in their favor. Sure, if you threw them all at each other, BattleTech would score some casualties - but any roughly equivalent force is just going to whomp on Battletech, because Battletech is serious science fiction within the conceits of its genre - and Warhammer's genre is being ridiculously epic.

As Catamount kind of touches on, though - it's really a bit of a fool's errand to try and harmonize the game rules. They're using different kinds of systems, not simply different magnitudes, so any comparison must be at some point subjective - and therefore useless.

Edited by Void Angel, 10 June 2015 - 04:01 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Catamount, on 10 June 2015 - 03:38 PM, said:

Iraqiwalker, thanks for taking the time over the last couple of days to post in detail. I'm been on 12 hour days at work this week, so I likely won't have time to write up any thoughts in detail, however I will say that I fundamentally agree with RedDragon here on an important point, which is that I fundamentally disagree with some of how you've arrived at your conclusions on the matchup here. I don't think you're looking at things wrong; I just think you're answering a slightly different question than I would have interpreted from the OP.

I don't think the question of which board game would prevail if you stuck pieces from both on a flat surface together and normalized rulesets is the same question as which universe would prevail in a fight. The respective TT games are games that happen to take place in those universes. I don't hold that that's the same as them actually being the respective universes, and would no more endorse such a method of analysis than I would settling a Star Wars vs Star Trek debate by looking up the ship scrips in Armada II and Empire At War or weapon values in respective shooter titles to compare technologies, because such games are translations of "real world" conditions to board game or RTS video game conditions, and the latter is intrinsically incapable of fully representing the former. At best, it's a simplistic model. Red's absolutely right here. There are just too many assumptions inherent to an analysis relying on such information, I think, to glean enormously useful information.

Do I still think 40k would win? I haven't really looked at 40k in a few years, largely because I got frustrated in the last big discussion I was in by consistent fluff figures for the universe (its inconsistency is in the multiples of orders of magnitude), and the inability to easily filter the definitive from the speculative or non-canonical. Upon review, I don't think 40k needs "magic" to beat BT. They're simply more technologically advanced and have greater industrial capacity (how much BT could close that gap had the Succession wars never happened would be an interesting discussion). Energy shields alone, or their equivalent, are game changers, and they don't even have to be god-like durable to be so, but rather just capable of shrugging off a handful of solid hits without notable damage to the ship underneath (ie bleedthrough excepted).

I do, however, think you're inflating 40k figures. I think your numbers are largely inconsistent with the bulk of published fluff figures, with general descriptions of the level of technology (power generation and storage, weapon descriptions, etc), with a number of observed effects, etc. I also probably start with a few different assumptions than you do, and meta level disagreements make things rather difficult out of the gate. Maybe over the weekend there will be time for a good discussion on that topic, as well as discussing the relative merits of different kinds of analysis of 40k. There's never any end to ways you can approach analysis in vs topics.

That's an awesome post, and I can respect your viewpoint. The problem with a lot of these conversions from 40K to BT is that inconsistencies, and misrepresentation on the table are very common. What I tend to do is rely on technical readouts, and the most common descriptions of what X does to Y throughout the fluff, and the crunch. I'm not concerned about which universe would win. As you mentioned earlier, and above 40K has a massive technological lead, and the upper end of tech in 40K is just ludicrous in power.

There are three approaches to a conversion that can have 40K, and BT on the same table:

1- Import one system into the other, while being faithful to the stats of both (hence why a Land Raider is about 6K BV2)

2- Import one completely into the other, and tone the overpowered one to the level of the second one. This results in a fairer crunch, but it's not fluff compliant.

3- Make an independent system that is the middle point between the two.

I chose to go with 1, since it allows me to accurately represent both.

Also, remember that the estimates I have put in there are based on a full scale game. You don't want a Lascannon to be the same as an ERLL or PPC. Because then every squad of guardsmen is gonna have about 8 of those. So instead, give it the high damage, and BV of the NL, which lets the weapon function as it does in it's own universe, but now I'm restricted to a few on the board, instead of 300.

The tech is one thing to compensate for, but the other part is the numbers, and fieldability of the units. If a squad of Guardsmen can outstrip 2 stars of DWFs in firepower, then I need to either inflate that squad's BV to unjustifiable numbers, considering their fragility, or tone down the firepower. Both of which will require adjusting BV.

It's partly why I hated the conversion, because a single platoon of guardsmen that is faithful to 40K lore, with heavy weapons, will cost as much as a lance of mechs, and even though technically the BVs match, 8 ERLLs tend to swing things in their favor every time. If it's an urban location, and they're packing Meltas, BV matching won't really matter. The infantry squad will win 75% of the time.

So while some of the weapons don't seem as effective as I make them out to be. That's because they're dealing with the ridiculous OPness that is 40K. The problem is that even when you try to tone down the 40K stuff, it's still too strong. So even on the low end, there are just too many guns on the board. It's why I prefer to stick with more 40K-compliant stats, which restrict the number of guns I can put for the BV I'm using.

Thought process behind Lascannon = NL-55, and my general approach to try and balance things on the table

Spoiler

An ERLL is only 163 BV. That means if I get my Guardsman platoon of 50 12 of those (still leaves me three more heavy weapons choices, letting the platoon strap Heavy Bolters, Flamers, and Multi Meltas) I am at 1956 BV just for the ERLLs. I'm getting 96 damage from that. That's from one Platoon (and under a Rank order, that's doubled, btw. That's not the best use though. Using another order I can let them re-roll all missed shots with those ERLLs)

Now if I have the NL-55, I need to spend 1386 BV for ONE NL-55, and I'm getting only 55 damage from it. For the BV, the ERLL (and I'm using the IS one here), is significantly more efficient when used by heavy weapons teams, and platoons. Using the NL 55 actually keeps the Lascannon in check, instead of buffing it.

That's my analysis from a TT standpoint. We start dropping it's power level even more, and it becomes clear we're not really using a Lascannon anymore, and on top of it, we can get even more of those EVERYWHERE.

I hope that clarifies things a bit more.

[The Councilor]

I'm going to add to this, one a Lascannon whether MP(man portable) or Vehicle mounted can punch a hole straight through the toughest vehicles in the Imperium the only weapon in 40k that is more effective than that at range are Eldar Lance weapons. Lasguns use small capacitors as stated before they are manufactured for their simplicity. Another thing to mention is that a Regiment of the Imperial Guard really depends on the world it's from. Closer to a Battlezone or a highly strategic world like Cadia you will find Guards with Strength of men to the half million or more (and this is on a world where everyone is from birth taught to fight) These are the people you want to pit an elemental against, because this is a fair fight. While it's true in terms of gear it seems lopsided you have to remember that even being bred for combat with genetic manipulation an Elemental is still human. Only in armor do their reaction get to a point where an average person cannot keep up.

Regiments from Catachan specialize in gureilla warfare, the Eleysians favor HALO operations and orbital insertions. It's very true that when you use the Codex ranges the weapons feel like they don't reach all that far but as has been stated earlier it's inconsistent and depends on the writer. Give the Imperium too much resistance and the Space Marines or Sisters or Battle will be called in (well petitioned for aide is a better way to put it). Space Marines are as stated plucked from recruiting worlds before puberty sets in, they are put through rigorus physical and spiritual testing again the methods of testing and recruitment are left to the Chapter. They are then placed into the scout companies (yes companies some chapters have more than one depending on what their particular role is or when they were created) Eventually should they survive this baptisim they are given their battle armor. Space Marine Battle armor works with the black carapace so they can move around completely unencumbered by it. The Powerpack on the back makes sure the internal mechanisims keep moving and that the information being fed into the helm is working. The armor is a mixture of Cermaic(called Ceramite) and Adamantium making it both tough and flexible.

The newly annointed marines are then typically placed in the Devastator squads where they gain experience at range under the guise of a Sergent who by himself is a veteran of centuries of combat here they get access to fairly typical weaponry Heavy Bolters, Missiel Launchers, or even Heavy Flammers. That's where the I can tell what that's for ends and then the scarier stuff comes in they get Lascannons, Plasmacannons, and they can even get Heavy Meltas (ranged fusion cutters) the Plasma cannons create miniature suns at their point of impact.

then after they survive the Devastator squads they are pulled into the Battle squads these squads are tactically flexible most of them carry the Bolter which fires a .75 calibure explosive shell as a standard. They also have shells which carry acid or is designed to crack open Marine armor. They also have shells with extra propellant which doubles the normal range of a bolter. In tabletop only Sternguard get these shells. In reality all Marines can carry them.

Space Marine blood is enhanced so that any wound instantly clots, Elementals rely on their armor to do that. Space Marines have a gland in their throat that allows them to spit acid over a fairly short range. Space Marines don't need to eat, and they don't need to sleep for extended periods. If they do at all it's because they enjoy the taste. We haven't even gotten to their breaching troops the Terminators. Terminator armor has an internal exoskeleton and is reinforced to the extreme. It also has an inbuilt shield generator, for more protection assault terminators get Storm shields these also have an inbuild shield genertaor only in this case it's focused towards the front of the shield. Then they get the added bonus of the option to mount a MMP (Multiple Missile Pack) on top of their armor they all get power fists which all have disruptive fields around them which means they'd quite litteraly punch holes in Elemental armor.

Vehicles are probably where you can start to draw a more balanced fight, only because it's not really clear the strength and resistance of tank armor in the 41st millenium at least as far as MBTs of the time go (so Lemen Russ and Predator tanks). but take tanks like the Land Raider or Baneblade and their varients and the power scale slides towards the Imperim. The Land Raider can litteraly operate by itself with no human input. I defer to those with more knowledge than me when it comes to space combat for the 41st millenium. The Innersphere would fit inside 1/4th of a Segmentum and would be the equivalent of at least several sub sectors of the Imperium since there's no clear definition for how many stars or worlds make up a subsector and in truth their probably isn't one.

As has been mentioned before the Imperium would outproduce the Battletech universe on a vast magnitude not every world has small areas given over to manufaction no no the Imperium does it on a grand scale and has ENTIRE PLANETS given over to production and manufaction of all the hardware.

The Adeptus Mechanicus however is the real reason for the stagnant level of technology in the Imperium as they have control of the forgeworlds (and forgeworks on individual planets) and after 10,000 years and the loss of some forgeworlds in the Imepriums past due to war and just human nature they've lost the ability to produce their most advanced technology. If we were to compare Battletech vs the Imperium at the height of it's technological power then we aren't talking chapters of space marines but legions with 10,000 or more marines PER LEGION.

The equivalent of a Battlemech in 40k are the Knights though they are probably closer in height to a medium or heavy mech. When comparing them to the Titans then there is not contest anymore. The Imperator Titan could litteraly shoot a Battalion of Mechs from accross a continent with it's Plasma Destructor (it has the furthest table top range at 960 inches) and it get's teh ability to mount dozens of Titan grade weapons. Yes it can carry troops in it's feet. I love the lore for both games but Battletech is based about 1,000 years from now while Warhammer 40,000 is based about 30,000 years from now. They have the edge in all areas over Battletech True some worlds might slow the Imperium down a little but give too much resistance and they will just fry the planet of all life.

[IraqiWalker]

Segmentums, and other sector divisions are usually based on light year distance, troop distribution, and solar system saturation in many cases. (Ultima segmentum is the biggest, and it's partly because the Ultramarines manage it really well, and there are loads of navies in there.)

Space Combat in 40K is beyond outrageous. When the bombers are as big as imperator titans, that should give you an idea of how massive it is. Carriers cram these in large formations.

Then of course there are the Death Strike Missile launchers, which are nukes, but 40K'd, and the IG has loads of those. The rarer warhead types are usually special request only (like ones that literally open a portal into the warp, and the thing keeps moving across the battlefield, anything in it's AOE is virtually dead. Even titans have a hard time trying to survive those.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 10 June 2015 - 10:49 PM.

[SnagaDance]

Ah, remembering those old 2nd Edition 40K battles, with the battle cards...... "I play Virus Bomb", "Ah, ok, I'll just pack up my entire Ork army then........", not so good times really (yes I play Orks).

[RedDragon]

Void Angel, on 10 June 2015 - 04:01 PM, said:

it's not really appropriate to look at a universe based around everything being ridiculously epic and say, "well, sure they'd win, because Space Magic!"

[...]

but any roughly equivalent force is just going to whomp on Battletech, because Battletech is serious science fiction within the conceits of its genre - and Warhammer's genre is being ridiculously epic.

I like how you basically answer your own point there

The thing is: Battletech is Science Fiction. Logically there is some fiction, as implied in the genre's name. WH on the other hand I wouldn't even call SF any more, it's more Fantasy IMO.
Yes, Battletech has some fictional elements, but in fact, right now the KF-Drive is the only thing that comes to my mind that is not plausible, and that is a plot device that is needed to get it to the "space" genre. Every other tech they possess could be usable in the next 25 years or so if mankind deemed it necessary to invent it.
But with WH it's totally different. Not only are they in an age far more in the future, making technology possible that we wouldn't even dream of, but they also add many fantasy elements to the mix as demons possessing their vehicles and weapons, psionics, aliens etc. And even in the realm of "real" science they take great freedoms in their setting.

So yes, I stand by my statement that WH would win by Space Magic. Because that's exactly what you said in your post. Different systems with different premises. BT is hard and "plausible" (as far as the genre goes) Sci-Fi, WH more Science-Fantasy or something.

[IraqiWalker]

RedDragon, on 11 June 2015 - 01:53 AM, said:

I like how you basically answer your own point there

The thing is: Battletech is Science Fiction. Logically there is some fiction, as implied in the genre's name. WH on the other hand I wouldn't even call SF any more, it's more Fantasy IMO.
Yes, Battletech has some fictional elements, but in fact, right now the KF-Drive is the only thing that comes to my mind that is not plausible, and that is a plot device that is needed to get it to the "space" genre. Every other tech they possess could be usable in the next 25 years or so if mankind deemed it necessary to invent it.
But with WH it's totally different. Not only are they in an age far more in the future, making technology possible that we wouldn't even dream of, but they also add many fantasy elements to the mix as demons possessing their vehicles and weapons, psionics, aliens etc. And even in the realm of "real" science they take great freedoms in their setting.

So yes, I stand by my statement that WH would win by Space Magic. Because that's exactly what you said in your post. Different systems with different premises. BT is hard and "plausible" (as far as the genre goes) Sci-Fi, WH more Science-Fantasy or something.

Science Fantasy wouldn't be far from the truth. 40K over the decades accrued segments from Science Fiction, Fantasy, and even Space opera. Depending on which faction you're reading, and which edition.

2nd Edition for example had cheese to the extreme, and there were only 2 pedals in the 40K space wagon "Metal", and "awesome". 3rd Edition had grimdark levels to their highest. 4th was more focused on the sci-fi aspects. 5th was ... er ... Well, we had a lot of "wolf" stuff in there.

If you look at the lore for the Imperial Knights, and Knight houses, it is undiluted fantasy awesomeness with 40K strapped to it.

This is from an article I did not write, but it better illustrates the Fantasy point:

Spoiler

Knight Titan lore is some of the coolest stuff in 40k. True to both the medieval tradition and epic feel that 40k thrives from, Knight Titans protect the Agri Worlds that the Mechanicus use to supply (and predominantly feed) their incredibly ravenous forge worlds. These Titans are easier to produce by far than even the humble Warhound Scout Titan and so can be made reliably, produced almost as an afterthought. So Knights aren't the biggest, baddest, most overblown thing in 40k -- but, they are to the Knight Worlders. The people who live and die on those Agri Worlds, delineated from other Agri Worlds by their designation as Knight Worlds, are all on the technological and societal footing of Medieval Europe. A lot of these worlds look like the Empire, from Warhammer Fantasy. Kings and Queens, Arthurian legend, stone brick castles and skullcapped peasantry abound; fields and forests extend to every horizon without end. Remember, it's much, much more important to obey societal doctrine than to optimize food output.

Imagine what someone from that world would think when they see a Knight Titan. The most agile giant robots the Imperium makes, capable of shrugging off lasers and plasma bombs, tower silently over a field on a world that probably doesn't even have gunpowder weaponry or a Copernican idea of the night sky. The kingdoms of the planet may have their petty wars, but life is dominated by meeting the food and resource quotas of machine-men from the sky, who build and fix the Knights that children and adults view with awe and reverence, like some amalgam of god and monster. These machine-men could destroy entire kingdoms on a whim by dropping stars from the sky. Kingdoms train their nobles and knightly warriors to fight with swords, horses, and hammers. They conscript armies from farming peasants, and use squads of bowmen to kill men at range....except for the Knight Titan pilots. Those who are honorable enough or skilled enough may graduate beyond knighthood, to Knighthood. Someone who takes a bath maybe twice a month and lives by torchlight has the duty to step inside a machine of such power and complexity that the science of the Third Millennium proves incapable of comprehending it. Those men are revered beyond their kings, for they are the wielders of magic and death, and are entrusted with more true power than any other man on the planet. Those men fight monsters, murderous warriors from the sky, and even other Knights from enemy kingdoms. Sometimes, when the machine men come down when they aren't expected, the men who pilot the god-monsters must go far away to battle alongside the machine men in their wars. Not a war on the other side of the world, but a war on a distant star, surrounded by machines and giants even larger than they.

Imagine the man who has the lifelong job of knowing how to run the Knights, whose sacred duty is to recruit and train pilots. Imagine. A lord or general may give the order to bring cavalry around the left flank, and fire the laser cannon onto the walls of his enemy's castle. Despite his most valorous deeds, his children grow up playing with a giant metal god standing over them, silent and omnipotent, resplendent in livery and gold leaf. These children one day grow old and tell stories not of lords and generals, but of the time when their kingdom's metal giant slew a great beast, or razed an entire castle single-handedly, or ran across the entire world to deliver medicine to a dying king. Imagine what a pilot is to his subjects, or his lords. What legends would be told of them, the men who step inside the kingdom's giant? Their legends are not sagas of inscrutable gods or immortal emperors or statistic-scale tragedies, but of simple, honorable soldiers told by humble, hardworking people centuries after those soldiers are but dust and memory.

If you are not crying tears of pure awesome right now then you either have no soul or are Sly Marbo.